Is There Any Interest In Discussing The US-Backed Coup Which Has Finally Removed Morales?

[Bordigist]

Incorrect. When government nationalizes an industry they cease to be capitalist and have become socialist instead. You clearly have no concept of the word capitalist. If the private sector is not investing capital in the industry, then it cannot be a capitalist nation by definition.

Negative. Capitalism is generalized commodity production for exchange. This can occur between State owned enterprises just as well as between private actors (and between co-operative as well as hierarchical enterprises).

Socialism, which is synonymous with Communism (the misattribution of socialism as the "lower phase" of Communism stems from a misreading of the Gothakritik) will abolish production for exchange in lieu of direct and unmediated production for use. Produced items may still pass through separate hands, but they will not be produced to realize their exchange value.

 

[Bordigist]

He didn't threaten to nationalize the steel industry, the socialist fascist did so. It was only the Supreme Court that overturned Truman's illegal actions. Your knowledge of history is on par with your knowledge of capitalism - lacking.

So he was a "socialist fascist" using socialist fascist methods against socialist fascist union workers?

The only difference between socialism and communism is that socialism still allows for the ownership of private property,

Objectively false. Marx distinguishes between a 'lower phase' and a 'higher phase' of Communism in the Gothakritik; he never identifies the term 'socialism' with the 'lower phase', but uses the terms 'socialism' and 'Communism' interchangeably. Private property is abolished in the lower form as well as the higher.

 

[Somerville]

Yes, this is a terrible destruction of democracy in Bolivia, and the continuation of anti-democracy power grab influence by the US to do so.

Bolivia has a long history of political instability; under 14? years with Morales, there was stability for the first time. Extreme poverty in the country was halved, from 40% to 20%. The indigenous people had more equality for the first time.

But he didn't always screw his country for the benefit of US companies.

The OAS - which the pays 60% of the costs of - showed itself a US puppet again.

No one in the US can really say you are for democracy, if you don't oppose this and other acts - including the US-backed coup in Honduras under Obama and Hillary.

the situation in Bolivia does seem to inspire some questions.

TOP BOLIVIAN COUP PLOTTERS TRAINED BY US MILITARY’S SCHOOL OF THE AMERICAS, SERVED AS ATTACHÉS IN FBI POLICE PROGRAMS and Bolivia Coup Led by Christian Fascist Paramilitary Leader, a Multi-Millionaire – with Foreign Support


Indigenous people of Bolivia are not happy
U.N. Warns Bolivia Crisis Could 'Spin Out of Control' as Death Toll Mounts

 

[Glitch]

So he was a "socialist fascist" using socialist fascist methods against socialist fascist union workers?

Absolutely, since as Mussolini described his fascist socialist Italy: "All within the State, nothing outside the State, and nothing against the State." Government controls all, not the people.

Objectively false. Marx distinguishes between a 'lower phase' and a 'higher phase' of Communism in the Gothakritik; he never identifies the term 'socialism' with the 'lower phase', but uses the terms 'socialism' and 'Communism' interchangeably. Private property is abolished in the lower form as well as the higher.

Bolsheviks replaced the Christian religion with atheism. Church property was confiscated or destroyed. Free speech and free press were prohibited. Private property was abolished. Centralizing all power, Vladimir Lenin explained: "The goal of socialism is communism."

 

[Bordigist]

Absolutely, since as Mussolini described his fascist socialist Italy: "All within the State, nothing outside the State, and nothing against the State." Government controls all, not the people.

Mussolini made no pretensions to governing a socialist society until the establishment of the Republic of Saló in 1944 - and he was simply lying about it.

Bolsheviks replaced the Christian religion with atheism. Church property was confiscated or destroyed. Free speech and free press were prohibited. Private property was abolished. Centralizing all power, Vladimir Lenin explained: "The goal of socialism is communism."

I don't care what Lenin says, because he was wrong. Marx does not distinguish between 'socialism' and 'Communism' which terms he uses interchangeably, but between 'higher phase' and 'lower phase' Communism. He also discussed this in the Gothakritik, a work directly aimed against the Lassallean 'State socialists'.

 

[Integrityrespec]

Morales made the terrible mistake of relying on the OAS to review the election results, and in the preceding/ensuing lithium-charged US desire for control of Bolivia, he was forced out of office.

Does anyone care?

Liberals?

Conservatives?

Leftists?

More here:

Bolivia Coup Is Latest Blow for Latin American Socialism

I don't care about Morales but this is why people wonder about our governments own involvement not only around the world but in our own politics. Go back to the 1960's and look at the Gulf of Tonkin incident. U.S. definitely hid some facts that helped create an opening for us to get more involved in Vietnam, like the NV patrol boats firing on USS Morris first, not so. I love our country and I support our decisions mostly but our "secrets" are dirty in a lot of places. I think we are fixing to find out at least some more when IG Horowitz unveils the FISA and Mueller investigations.

 

[Glitch]

the situation in Bolivia does seem to inspire some questions.

TOP BOLIVIAN COUP PLOTTERS TRAINED BY US MILITARY’S SCHOOL OF THE AMERICAS, SERVED AS ATTACHÉS IN FBI POLICE PROGRAMS and Bolivia Coup Led by Christian Fascist Paramilitary Leader, a Multi-Millionaire – with Foreign Support


Indigenous people of Bolivia are not happy
U.N. Warns Bolivia Crisis Could 'Spin Out of Control' as Death Toll Mounts

The US trained many of the top military leaders in a great many nations at the Panama School of the America's, including:

• Argentina
• Bolivia
• Brazil
• Chile
• Colombia
• Ecuador
• El Salvador
• Guatemala
• Haiti
• Honduras
• Mexico
• Panama
• Paraguay
• Peru
• Uruguay
• Venezuela

It is what the school was specifically set up to do - Train military leaders from Central and South America.

All the people of Bolivia are better off, including the indigenous. Whether they realize it now or not. The last thing they want is to become another Venezuela, eating the animals at the zoo because they are starving to death. Socialism is always the path to death and destruction.

 

[Glitch]

Mussolini made no pretensions to governing a socialist society until the establishment of the Republic of Saló in 1944 - and he was simply lying about it.

Mussolini wrote FDR letters of congratulations with the enactment of his socialist fascist New Deal programs in 1934 and 1935. Apparently Mussolini wasn't aware of the power of our Supreme Court that tossed 11 of FDR's 15 New Deal programs as violating the US Constitution. FDR would eventually get his revenge against the Supreme Court by replacing all nine of them between 1937 and 1943.

I don't care what Lenin says, because he was wrong. Marx does not distinguish between 'socialism' and 'Communism' which terms he uses interchangeably, but between 'higher phase' and 'lower phase' Communism. He also discussed this in the Gothakritik, a work directly aimed against the Lassallean 'State socialists'.

I think I will take one of the founders definition over yours.

 

[Somerville]

The US trained many of the top military leaders in a great many nations at the Panama School of the America's, including:

• Argentina
• Bolivia
• Brazil
• Chile
• Colombia
• Ecuador
• El Salvador
• Guatemala
• Haiti
• Honduras
• Mexico
• Panama
• Paraguay
• Peru
• Uruguay
• Venezuela

It is what the school was specifically set up to do - Train military leaders from Central and South America.

All the people of Bolivia are better off, including the indigenous. Whether they realize it now or not. The last thing they want is to become another Venezuela, eating the animals at the zoo because they are starving to death. Socialism is always the path to death and destruction.

Yep, though you are a bit behind the times. The training academy in Panama was closed many years ago. The Latin America military now receive training at Ft Benning in Georgia.

In how many of the nations on your list did American trained military over throw their governments?

 

[Bordigist]

Mussolini wrote FDR letters of congratulations with the enactment of his socialist fascist New Deal programs in 1934 and 1935. Apparently Mussolini wasn't aware of the power of our Supreme Court that tossed 11 of FDR's 15 New Deal programs as violating the US Constitution. FDR would eventually get his revenge against the Supreme Court by replacing all nine of them between 1937 and 1943.

Sure. Anglo-American left-liberalism shares a genetic heritage with fascism, particularly the overt corporatism of institutions like the NRA. But socialism is not simply Keynesianism on steroids.

Welfare statism etc. presuppose capitalism by presupposing the existence of money facilitated by wage labor. Communism abolishes these.

I think I will take one of the founders definition over yours.

Then you need to read the Gothakritik more discerningly. Marx identifies socialism as Communism and speaks only of "higher" and "lower" phases of the same. I can cite chapter and verse if you please.

 

[Glitch]

In how many of the nations on your list did American trained military over throw their governments?

All of them, at one time or another. Beginning in the 1960s, but mostly during the 1980s. The 1980s was a very coups-happy decade in Central and South America.

 

[Obscurity]

Disgusting move. And of course the "winner" is a psychopathic right wing Christian zealot hell bent on undoing the progress Bolivia has made.

This global insurgency by failure right wingers has got to be stopped. This was theft outright and a real coup.

You clowncar right wingers should take note.

This is what a real coup looks like.

They're rounding up his supporters now.

Wonder why. Apparently he has fled to mexico.

Completely unacceptable.

 

[Glitch]

Disgusting move. And of course the "winner" is a psychopathic right wing Christian zealot hell bent on undoing the progress Bolivia has made.

This global insurgency by failure right wingers has got to be stopped. This was theft outright and a real coup.

You clowncar right wingers should take note.

This is what a real coup looks like.

They're rounding up his supporters now.

Wonder why. Apparently he has fled to mexico.

Completely unacceptable.

A coup d'etat is any attempt to illegally overthrow a lawfully elected government. Like what the FBI, CIA, Hillary, and Obama tried to do after the 2016 General Election. Guess who invented the Russian Collusion lie? I'll give you a hint, it was the same person who invented the Obama was born in Kenya lie in 2008.

 

[Obscurity]

A coup d'etat is any attempt to illegally overthrow a lawfully elected government. Like what the FBI, CIA, Hillary, and Obama tried to do after the 2016 General Election. Guess who invented the Russian Collusion lie? I'll give you a hint, it was the same person who invented the Obama was born in Kenya lie in 2008.

I never bought into the russian collusion narrative. What's happening in Bolivia is absolutely a coup.

And it's a great example of a coup.

What's happened to trump, is not a coup.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Yep, though you are a bit behind the times. The training academy in Panama was closed many years ago. The Latin America military now receive training at Ft Benning in Georgia.

In how many of the nations on your list did American trained military over throw their governments?

Many of South America's most savage repressive fascistic dictators were Ft Benning "School of the Americas" alumni.

 

[ElChupacabra]

With a successful coup in Bolivia the Bolivians dodged a socialist bullet. They weren't so fortunate in Venezuela, where they continue to starve to death. Nor were they fortunate during Mao's Great Leap Forward that killed off 45 million Chinese. They didn't fare that well in the USSR under Stalin's imposed famines that killed 20 million Ukrainians and Russians. But then I suppose you support the 85 million that were slaughtered as a result of socialist fascist Italy and Germany.

Those 150 million dead in just the last century alone can be placed entirely at the feet of the socialist left.

Nothing based in reality supports your position that Bolivia was going to go in the same direction of Venezuela. It is quite possible they could have gone in the direction of Venezuela if they didn't learn the lessons of how social programs based on just one revenue stream could lead to catastrophic results should it fail. They could have also gone down the road of Europe in terms of social programs. Your assertion that anything I posted suggests a support for the deaths you cited just shows the absurdity of your position. The desire to provide a better quality of life for a nation's poor does not mean you're going to end up like the USSR or Maoist China. Who leads these efforts and their leadership qualities play a massive role in what direction these changes take.

I see you focus on only the cost in human life for one system but say nothing of what capitalism's price has been in human life and misery. Maybe you think economic hegemony is all shiny happy people holding hands?

 

[ElChupacabra]

So Morales was, in essence, overthrown at least in part, over squabbles over lithium ore, which is to electric transport what oil is to gasoline cars.
Sounds like Morales suffered a similar fate as Mohammad Mossaddegh in 1953.



Perhaps negotiating a better deal with Mossaddegh was the better choice, but he had the gall and temerity to suggest that the oil in the ground belonged to the Iranian people, just as Morales suggested that the lithium ore belonged to the people of Bolivia.

We still have not learned our lesson, and this latest action reinforces the notion of "the resource curse".

Spot on. Lithium is a big commodity in the technology age, and negotiating deals with interest parties which help raise your nation out of poverty shouldn't be a radical idea in the slightest. In Bolivia there was also the struggle between the indigenous peoples and the European descendants who tend to be in the ruling class. I think it was very interesting that Anez (the one who assumed power) made the statement: "the Bible has returned to the palace". I'll assume this won't bode well for the progress the indigenous peoples have made under Morales.

 

[danielpalos]

I definitely care. I understand why people have been suspicious of Morales, but the overthrow of the Bolivian government is insane. I think Canada and the United States have already came out in support of the coup, but hopefully some countries will hesitate to support this. Morales handled the voting issue about as good as he could have. I don't think he even knew how determined some factions within the government were to force him from power.

FDR was actually about infrastructure.

 

[CaughtInThe]

The OP sounds the same way Nixon supporters sounded.

Just remember that when you read any of his posts.

 

[Somerville]

Reading various sites covering the situation in Bolivia, it seems that things ain't all one side or the other - not just lefties vs. military

The crisis in Bolivia fits no easy political narrative

The dramatic resignation of Bolivia’s former president Evo Morales and his flight to asylum in Mexico have turned into something of a Rorschach test on the hemisphere’s politics. Many on the left are convinced that Morales was unseated in a military coup, since an insurrection among the country’s police and armed forces compelled the long-ruling leader’s departure. In this view, his fate was that of a long, tragic line of Latin American left-wing populists betrayed by U.S.-backed reactionary elements.

Meanwhile, observers and politicians further to the right hailed what is happening in Bolivia as a restoration of democracy and a victory against hegemonic socialism on the continent. Morales, in their view, was the next Nicolás Maduro, the Venezuelan demagogue bent on retaining power no matter the damage to his country and its fragile democracy. A popular Bolivian rebellion booted him out of office.

Neither version of events tells the whole story. For now, Bolivia is in a perilous state of political limbo, bitterly divided over the path forward with the all-too-real prospect of fresh clashes between backers and opponents of Morales.

The Christian theocrat quoted in earlier posts seems to have disappeared from the media tales.

 

[SDET]

Anyone that calls this a coup thinks that rigged vote counts are OK. Morales cheated and the OAS confirmed it. Had it been an honest victory, it would have been grudgingly accepted. I have friends in Cochabamba that are tired of seeing their paycheck shrink to subsidize lazy unproductive people. Most of the urban population feels the same way.

Lol what a load of neo con bull****.

Sent from my Honor 8X

 

[Somerville]

Anyone that calls this a coup thinks that rigged vote counts are OK. Morales cheated and the OAS confirmed it. Had it been an honest victory, it would have been grudgingly accepted. I have friends in Cochabamba that are tired of seeing their paycheck shrink to subsidize lazy unproductive people. Most of the urban population feels the same way.

Sadly I have to agree with a commenter whose avatar labels a war criminal and murderer as HERO.

 

[snakestretcher]

It comes as no surprise that the US is, yet again, meddling in the interior affairs of sovereign nations in the Americas.

GRAPHIC TRUTH: US MEDDLING IN THE AMERICAS - GZERO Media

Fleeing a hell the US helped create: why Central Americans journey north | US news | The Guardian

 

[SDET]

Bolivia is not in Central America AND has a pretty good quality of life. If you want to be annoyed about foreign meddling, you should point the finger at Cuba.

It comes as no surprise that the US is, yet again, meddling in the interior affairs of sovereign nations in the Americas.

GRAPHIC TRUTH: US MEDDLING IN THE AMERICAS - GZERO Media

Fleeing a hell the US helped create: why Central Americans journey north | US news | The Guardian

 

[SDET]

If you have a "leader" that is personal friends with Raul Castro and is getting an implementing advice from Cuba, you have a problem. The Bolivian people rose up and sent him packing; the rigged election was the last straw. Even if Morales' party wins a fair election, it seems that the people are mindful of a "leader" that wants to cement his power. Living in a Cuban colony is not a desirable situation. Morales was going to lose his re-election and he knew it.

Nothing based in reality supports your position that Bolivia was going to go in the same direction of Venezuela. It is quite possible they could have gone in the direction of Venezuela if they didn't learn the lessons of how social programs based on just one revenue stream could lead to catastrophic results should it fail. They could have also gone down the road of Europe in terms of social programs. Your assertion that anything I posted suggests a support for the deaths you cited just shows the absurdity of your position. The desire to provide a better quality of life for a nation's poor does not mean you're going to end up like the USSR or Maoist China. Who leads these efforts and their leadership qualities play a massive role in what direction these changes take.

I see you focus on only the cost in human life for one system but say nothing of what capitalism's price has been in human life and misery. Maybe you think economic hegemony is all shiny happy people holding hands?