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Is the division of church and state on shaky ground?

Two weeks before the election, my church aired an appeal from Ben Carson on the big screen. I immediately stood up in front of everybody, and walked out! I have not returned.

I now worship and pray to God in the privacy of my own home. I cannot accept the 1%er Republican Party or Donald Trump as Jesus's messenger.
 
Some time ago a President Johnson submitted an amendment to the Constitution basically saying that since Organized Religion did not pay taxes they should be limited on their involvement with politics.
I agree with this I have faith in God. Religion should not be allowed to endorse any political leader unless done privately as a private citizen nor should they criticize any political party while at church.

There has been rumors that the Republican party wishes to repeal this amendment of division of Church and State.
Well the Republican parties main voter base id Religion so they would win.

However although many might say I don;t care about politics, this has nothing to do with me.
A question; after Organized Religion gets their hands into politics you think there will stop there?
What of legalized Marijuana
What of Same sex marriages
What of abortion
What of censorship
What of Freedom of the press
Freedom of speech
Organized Religion might set their sights on these as well.:peace

And there in lies the problem for all who would rather think this is nothing at all.

All of those issues would be tackled with the subtlety of a bulldozer going over a tin can.

After you've seen some of the more horrible things people will do in the name of religion alone, these questions would most likely seem more relevant.

I would rather my government stay away from being a religiously run group, if only to say that at least the individuals working within it, can maintain their own personal faith.
 
Two weeks before the election, my church aired an appeal from Ben Carson on the big screen. I immediately stood up in front of everybody, and walked out! I have not returned.

I now worship and pray to God in the privacy of my own home. I cannot accept the 1%er Republican Party or Donald Trump as Jesus's messenger.

To be honest, if Jesus had a message he wanted us to know. He would come down, and tell us himself.
 
The difference between the church and the state is the state has an army, it can send anyone to jail, it can tax everyone, and it can make laws that apply to all. it can ever set up dual standards. The church does not have an army, it cannot jail citizens for not going to church, it can only collect taxes on a volunteer basis; tithes, and it can make laws; 10 Commandments, but only for people to follow on a volunteer basis.

The government is the large 200 pound bull male, while the church is the 100 pound skinny kid. Separation of church and state was there to prevent the bull male state from becoming a bully, using the extra powers it has at its disposal. Henry VIII, who was the king of England who started the Church of England allowed the state to decree changes in the church to suit his needs. This is what the Constitution tries to prevent. The state has too many bully means.

We could run a social experiment to show why the church is far more vulnerable and therefore needs help separating itself from the state. We can take turns, allowing the state and then the church use their powers to control the other, each for six months. The State can use all its advantages. It can bring in armies and police It can make new laws that it can enforce with jail, and its can send in the IRS,to control the church resources.

What can the church do other than the slow boat rode of impacting public opinion. They can't bring in an army or make new laws or even tap into the IRS. All they have is a long election process that can be rigged from within the state. Who has the capacity to be the bigger and better bully? Who needs to be protected?

The left wants the 200 pound bull male state, to make new rules and laws that say that the 100 pound skinny kid needs to be handcuffed so it does not attack the 200 pound bull male. They live in this upside down world.

Henry VIII started the Church of England?
 
To be honest, if Jesus had a message he wanted us to know. He would come down, and tell us himself.

Most Christians, including myself, would say he did.
 
So you're basically back peddling on your original assertion. Got it.

Very well forget about the amendment heard some preacher on the late night talking about it , should have known better.
However the question of the thread is still the same "Is the division of Church and State on shaky ground?
That looks like a question to me an interrogative sentence . To be answered with a statement or opinion concerning said question.
Your first post I let slide, cause I don't know you., but after 2 post no answer or even an opinion.
I don't think I need any help telling me or saying what I'm asking I'm pretty sure I know

Since you obviously overlooked reading post #13
This is what it said .
So you accuse me of back peddling ,here is my proof that I am not.
I ask a question on the name of this thread I accuse you of dodging the question by refusing to answer it
Where is your proof???:peace
 
People are different and often divided, with many of them hating each other....that doesn't take away their free speech rights. The fact that various religions are at odds is not a reason that an Imam or a Preacher or a Bhikku should be denied their rights to free speech, and that includes political speech.

You are not talking about religion becoming involved IN Government, or at least...that's not ALL you're talking about. You've also made suggestions that would mean that a Catholic Priest, for example, should not be able to express a political belief to his congregation...let's say about abortion. That is not becoming involved IN government, that's simply engaging in free speech, and yet it is something you've indicated you have an issue with.

Finally, anecdotally claiming...with nothing to verify you claim by the way...that "a majority of americans" are tired of the things you're complaining about is, frankly, IRRELEVANT. Unless and until such a point that said majority is able to pass a constitutional amendment stripping away the free speech rights of religious figures, the reality is that they are still vested with the same constitutional rights as your or I when it comes to speaking about politics.

Indeed, it is rather hilarious to sit here and watch you pretend to care about "equality" when you're blatantly calling for the removal and restriction of free speech on the basis of religion.

A working man has free speech in politics he pays taxes for that right , are Churches [prepared to do the same?:peace
 
No religion is a fundemtnal piece of some people's identity, and it shapes many people's world view, so claiming religion and politics be seperate isn't realistic

What of the radical Muslim terrorist religion you best read up on that first before you agree to have it into politics.:peace
 
You should support the Conservatibe agenda, if you oppose a big, overreaching government. For some reason, you don't.

Because big, overreaching government is the hallmark of the Republocrat party.
 
this sentence makes no sense.


this sentence makes a little more sense. The first thing they have to do is repeal the Constitution because the First Amendment establishes where religion goes.
it's based on the 1st Amendment so no.
it doesn't matter if they post it in the middle of the beginning of the end or in the second post.

Your answers make no sense after all which is more important to politicians the Church or votes.
Which brings us back to another question .
If the religion was the main voter block of the Democratic party would the answers remain the same???:peace
 
And there in lies the problem for all who would rather think this is nothing at all.

All of those issues would be tackled with the subtlety of a bulldozer going over a tin can.

After you've seen some of the more horrible things people will do in the name of religion alone, these questions would most likely seem more relevant.

I would rather my government stay away from being a religiously run group, if only to say that at least the individuals working within it, can maintain their own personal faith.

I agree for to being an Individual in America is becoming most difficult at the present time.:peace
 
It won't work. Christian politicians will continue to present and pass Bible-based laws, etc., whenever possible. Oh, they'll just wrap them up in secular language / arguments, but the net effect will be the same.

That's why I and many others oppose them at every turn.


Christianity isn't remotely akin to the American Taliban.

Not Christianity, just some Christians and a few whole denominations. The problem is, they have a lot of money and power.
 
Henry VIII started the Church of England?

Yes - he desperately wanted an annulment of his marriage from his first wife so he could marry Anne Boleyn, but that was against the Catholic church's teachings. So Henry VIII broke away from the Vatican, declared himself the head of the church of England, annulled the marriage to his wife, married Anne Boleyn, became a father to the future Elizabeth I and then chopped off his wife's head. Good times. :)
 
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That's why I and many others oppose them at every turn.

Which ones in particular? You like partial-birth infanticide?

Forced redistribution of wealth (a left-wing economic scheme centered in greed and covetousness for other people's money, rather than exercising personal initiative and responsibility and earning it one's self)?
 
Which ones in particular? You like partial-birth infanticide?

Forced redistribution of wealth (a left-wing economic scheme centered in greed and covetousness for other people's money, rather than exercising personal initiative and responsibility and earning it one's self)?
Retarded ignorant religious babble is the only way to describe this crap.
 
A working man has free speech in politics he pays taxes for that right , are Churches [prepared to do the same?:peace

First, he most certainly DOES NOT pay taxes for that right. Are you saying that a person who is unemployed, and thus paying zero federal income, Medicaid, or social security taxes, does not have the right to vote? Are you suggesting you are in favor of denying the right to vote to anyone who does not pay a net positive in Federal taxes?

Second, so long as the religious institution functions as a legitimate non-profit, why should they be beholden to rules that other non-profits should not. You seem to think that voting should be tied to paying taxes. Should a woman's shelter who's primary organizer speaks to the women in it about abortion policy have to pay taxes? Should all NON-PROFIT entities, which do not pay taxes, be unable to speak in any fashion about a political issue within their walls?

Thirdly, you're own suggestions are potentially running afoul of actual constitutional amendments (not fictional ones that threads are initially based off of). To be able to tax a churches income, the government would need to be able to actually audit said organization, define what is or isn't legitimate business, and then act to ensure compliance. This creates a SERIOUS constitutional issue since explicitly as part of the first amendment, Congress is restricted from making laws that "prohibit the free exercise" of religion...and regulations, by their very nature, are prohibitions on what/how an entity may act. Note, this is something that is actually clearly stated within the constitution, while the notion of "separation of church and state", let alone the extremely broad way you're interpreting such a statement, is not. So not only are you seeking to "abridge the freedom of speech" of priests/imams/etc, but you also are seemingly in favor of Congress making laws that prohibit the free exercise of religion. You are sitting here going on about constitutional matters, while making frequent arguments that are questionable in relation to the actual 1st amendment.

Indeed, it was a 1970's SCOTUS case that summed it up best, when Chief Justice Burger stated "The exemption creates only a minimal and remote involvement between church and state, and far less than taxation of churches." The separation between church and state becomes far smaller when you give the government full regulatory authority and power, which comes with the power of taxation, over churches then it does by making them exempt from taxation. The reality is that the idea of a "Separation between Church and State" (Which was NEVER singularly about keeping the church out of government, but also about keeping the government out of the church) is impossible to fully adhere to as it relates to taxation. Whether you tax them, or you don't tax them, the church and the state in some degree are being intermingled. By choosing to NOT tax them, that intermingling is done in the least amount of ways possible. By extending that privilege to all churches, the adherence to the 1st's amendment requirement of no law respecting the establishment of religion is done, as no individual religion is being established).
 
Yes - he desperately wanted an annulment of his marriage from his first wife so he could marry Anne Boleyn, but that was against the Catholic church's teachings. So Henry VIII broke away from the Vatican, declared himself the head of the church of England, annulled the marriage to his wife, married Anne Boleyn, became a father to the future Elizabeth I and then chopped off his wife's head. Good times. :)

The Church of England existed long before Henry, and before the RCC decided that it owned it.
 
Which ones in particular? You like partial-birth infanticide?
"Partial birth infanticide"??? What are you talking about? That's been illegal for a long time, and it was pretty rare before this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial-Birth_Abortion_Ban_Act

You'll need to elaborate on this, as I have no idea what you are lobbying for as a Christian here.
Forced redistribution of wealth (a left-wing economic scheme centered in greed and covetousness for other people's money, rather than exercising personal initiative and responsibility and earning it one's self)?
 
Your answers make no sense after all which is more important to politicians the Church or votes.
I can tell you what didn't make sense and that part of your post that I said didn't make sense. It is your sentence structure that's not a Slam against do some people English as a second language and it's particularly hard to learn.

Can you tell me specifically why my statement doesn't make sense?


Which brings us back to another question .
If the religion was the main voter block of the Democratic party would the answers remain the same???:peace
It really all depends on the type of government. A Theocratic dictatorship yes. A constitutional republic no.
 
Very well forget about the amendment heard some preacher on the late night talking about it , should have known better.
However the question of the thread is still the same "Is the division of Church and State on shaky ground?
That looks like a question to me an interrogative sentence . To be answered with a statement or opinion concerning said question.
Your first post I let slide, cause I don't know you., but after 2 post no answer or even an opinion.
I don't think I need any help telling me or saying what I'm asking I'm pretty sure I know

Since you obviously overlooked reading post #13
This is what it said .
So you accuse me of back peddling ,here is my proof that I am not.
I ask a question on the name of this thread I accuse you of dodging the question by refusing to answer it
Where is your proof???:peace

You made a couple of false claims in your opening post, I called you on them. How can we move forward until you have addressed that? :shrug:

There was never a separation of church and state in the Constitution. How can something which never existed be in jeopardy?
 
You made a couple of false claims in your opening post, I called you on them. How can we move forward until you have addressed that? :shrug:

There was never a separation of church and state in the Constitution. How can something which never existed be in jeopardy?

Are you one of those Christians who believes the 'church' should be allowed to control the actions of the 'state'?

The Founders of this nation did believe the separation of church and state was vital to the birth of this nation.
“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.” – Benjamin Franklin

“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”
– Benjamin Franklin

“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose.” – Thomas Jefferson

”The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes.” – John Adams
 
Are you one of those Christians who believes the 'church' should be allowed to control the actions of the 'state'?

No, I'm one of those Christians who believes, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Are you one of those progressives who believe freedom from religion is somehow enshrined in the constitution?
 
No, I'm one of those Christians who believes, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Are you one of those progressives who believe freedom from religion is somehow enshrined in the constitution?

Almost every SCOTUS case on this issue supports freedom FROM religion. Your opinion may vary
 
No, I'm one of those Christians who believes, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
I agree completely with this statement to the point where one person's religious belief causes harm to another person

Are you one of those progressives who believe freedom from religion is somehow enshrined in the constitution?
Actually I do believe that, based upon study of the actions and words of those we call the Founders.

“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.” – James Madison
 
Almost every SCOTUS case on this issue supports freedom FROM religion. Your opinion may vary

Cite a couple, and explain exactly how they support "freedom from religion".
 
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