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Is it Racist for White Countries to Remain White?

Is it Racist for White Countries to Remain White?

  • Yes

    Votes: 23 38.3%

  • No

    Votes: 37 61.7%
  • Total voters
    60
maxparrish said:
No, not impossible. Read Red Holocaust (2009):
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Completely unsupported by demographic data.

About 1-2 million were killed in the GULAG, granted some of those were legit prisoners and some were innocent people.

Source: https://scepsis.net/library/id_937.html

2-4 million died during the Holodomor. https://www.persee.fr/doc/cmr_1252-6576_1997_num_38_4_2504

And 642,000 death warrants for political charges in the period between 1921 and 1954. Not all of which resulted in executions, but we'll never know for sure how many were carried out.

7 million is pushing it. Anything higher is supported by any of the data except by people trying to score cheap political points.
 
enderpotato00 said:
Well then why would people lie about Stalin killing a hell of a lot of his own people? He wasn't a nice guy at all.
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Well you see there was this other thing called the Cold War where the USSR wasn't our friend, and it's always a good propaganda tool to demonize your enemy.

Don't get me wrong, Stalin was a monster; a high functioning psychopath who was responsible for the deaths of millions. But in the 1940s he was clearly the lesser of two evils.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Completely unsupported by demographic data.

About 1-2 million were killed in the GULAG, granted some of those were legit prisoners and some were innocent people.

Source: https://scepsis.net/library/id_937.html

2-4 million died during the Holodomor. https://www.persee.fr/doc/cmr_1252-6576_1997_num_38_4_2504

And 642,000 death warrants for political charges in the period between 1921 and 1954. Not all of which resulted in executions, but we'll never know for sure how many were carried out.

7 million is pushing it. Anything higher is supported by any of the data except by people trying to score cheap political points.
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Actually dude, those 20 to 40 million people, were said by Stalin himself. So try again.
 
enderpotato00 said:
Thats what Stalin reported to the communist party back in

Major Soviet Paper Says 20 Million Died As Victims of Stalin

https://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/04/...ays-20-million-died-as-victims-of-stalin.html
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Nowhere in the article does it quote Stalin saying "I killed 20 million people". All it is a Marxist with an anti-Stalinist streak claiming that his numbers (which he offers no sources) add up to 40 million.

And again, one random newspaper article doesn't match up with the actual demographic data.

So no, Stalin didn't kill 40 million people.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Oh really? Care to quote him on that?
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12 million in gulags

1.2 million in purges

7 million with forced collectivization

1930-36: 7 million

1937-38: 3 million

1939-53: 10 million
 
enderpotato00 said:
12 million in gulags

1.2 million in purges

7 million with forced collectivization

1930-36: 7 million

1937-38: 3 million

1939-53: 10 million
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And again; you have no sources to back that up. Simply stating numbers doesn't make it so.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
And again; you have no sources to back that up. Simply stating numbers doesn't make it so.
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Alright then, if I can't convince Stalin killed a lot of people. How many people did Mao Zedong kill? How many people did Hitler kill?
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
There is One major problem with calculating the exact numbers for people murdered by Stalin: we don’t have access to soviet archives
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We actually do. Soviet archives became pretty much public domain in Russia after the fall of the USSR in 1991. It's why we have so much of a better picture of the USSR today than we did in say, the 70s.

We know, for example, 642,000 death warrants for political charges were issued between 1921 and 1953, the duration of Stalin's rule as General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (give or take a few months).

We don't know for sure how many were carried out or were exchanged for life sentences, but we do have the official numbers that were kept within the top secret confines within the Kremlin.
 
enderpotato00 said:
Alright then, if I can't convince Stalin killed a lot of people.
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Dude, I've already said Stalin is responsible for the deaths of at least 5 million people. 5 million is a LOT of people.

How many people did Mao Zedong kill?
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We'll never know for sure. Unlike the Soviets the ChiComs did not maintain accurate records of their country until the 1980s.

How many people did Hitler kill?
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Good question.

We don't know for sure how many people died in the Holocaust but 11 million is a good estimate (nearly 6 million Jews, roughly ~5 million Gypsies, Ukrainians, Poles, Serbs, socialists, Belarussians, so on and so forth). About 7.3 million Germans died during the war, on top of 27 million Soviet soldiers and civilians. That itself adds up to 45 million. I'd say another 1.5-2.0 million accommodate for all the soldiers and civilians of the Allied nations (not including the USSR) killed by the Germans.

So 45-47 million is a good estimate in my book as to how many deaths Hitler is responsible for.

And it would've been in the hundreds of millions had he succeeded.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
We actually do. Soviet archives became pretty much public domain in Russia after the fall of the USSR in 1991. It's why we have so much of a better picture of the USSR today than we did in say, the 70s.

We know, for example, 642,000 death warrants for political charges were issued between 1921 and 1953, the duration of Stalin's rule as General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (give or take a few months).

We don't know for sure how many were carried out or were exchanged for life sentences, but we do have the official numbers that were kept within the top secret confines within the Kremlin.
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Exactly how long did the west have to freely examine soviet archives? Very little.

It was only during a brief period during the 1990s that soviet archives were free to be examined by western historians. When putin came to Power, those archives were locked up again.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Exactly how long did the west have to freely examine soviet archives? Very little.

It was only during a brief period during the 1990s that soviet archives were free to be examined by western historians. When putin came to Power, those archives were locked up again.
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No, not really. Once the USSR ceased to exist it's national archives became open because the state it was created by was no longer around. Soviet archives are useless to modern Russia outside historians because they're simply not relevant anymore.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
No, not really. Once the USSR ceased to exist it's national archives became open because the state it was created by was no longer around. Soviet archives are useless to modern Russia outside historians because they're simply not relevant anymore.
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But they are important if you want to reinterpret the past to fit an ideological agenda in the present.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
But they are important if you want to reinterpret the past to fit an ideological agenda in the present.
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Modern Russia really isn't as nostalgic for the USSR as some people might think. The majority of Russia's population either grew up in the waning days of the CCCP (when the country was falling apart at the seams) or after it, and have little connection to the former Soviet Union.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Completely unsupported by demographic data.

About 1-2 million were killed in the GULAG, granted some of those were legit prisoners and some were innocent people.

Source: https://scepsis.net/library/id_937.html

2-4 million died during the Holodomor. https://www.persee.fr/doc/cmr_1252-6576_1997_num_38_4_2504

And 642,000 death warrants for political charges in the period between 1921 and 1954. Not all of which resulted in executions, but we'll never know for sure how many were carried out.

7 million is pushing it. Anything higher is supported by any of the data except by people trying to score cheap political points.
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Your link is to a sparse, unrecognized and non-peer reviewed Russian website of dabblers, a link that produces a Russian language article we can't read (even if you select English, it takes you to the home page without access to the article), so it is pointless.

And your link to Wheatcroft, a well known minimizer whose credulous faith on official Soviet statistics is on par with that of the notorious Stalinist Webbs, is neither comprehensive nor reflective of the scope of current scholarship nor is reflective of the lines of evidence that provide other views. For example, Robert Conquest:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/05/...who-documented-soviet-horrors-dies-at-98.html

The scope of Stalin’s purges was laid out: seven million people arrested in the peak years, 1937 and 1938; one million executed; two million dead in the concentration camps. Mr. Conquest estimated the death toll for the Stalin era at no less than 20 million.

“His historical intuition was astonishing,” said Norman M. Naimark, a professor of Eastern European history at Stanford University. “He saw things clearly without having access to archives or internal information from the Soviet government. We had a whole industry of Soviet historians who were exposed to a lot of the same material but did not come up with the same conclusions. This was groundbreaking, pioneering work.”
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And in regards to Wheatcrofts article on Victims of Stalinism:

http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/CNQ-Victims_Stalinism.pdf

FOR ALL ITS IMPRESSIVE-LOOKING TABULATIONS, Wheatcroft's article1, while making an occasional good point, is fundamentally flawed. His claim to present the true, 'archival' totals for the victims of Stalinism is fallacious. He has simply accepted Kruglov's report, for no apparent reason, and incorporated the Shvernik report, at the same time using the Zemskov figures for Gulag. These are in any case incompatible.
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You need to familiarize yourself with the broad literature before making claims based on a Russian crank site of self-appointed skeptics, and a single researcher whose agenda and views are on one-side of a multi-sided debate.
 
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Jredbaron96 said:
No, not really. Once the USSR ceased to exist it's national archives became open because the state it was created by was no longer around. Soviet archives are useless to modern Russia outside historians because they're simply not relevant anymore.
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Nor much accessible.
 
maxparrish said:
snip
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You're gonna accuse me of using ****ty sources and then cite Robert Conquest, who wrote his **** at the height of the Cold War and based if off anecdotes of Ukrainian diaspora. Get real.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
You're gonna accuse me of using ****ty sources and then cite Robert Conquest, who wrote his **** at the height of the Cold War and based if off anecdotes of Ukrainian diaspora. Get real.
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Out of intellectual ammo so soon?
 
maxparrish said:
Out of intellectual ammo so soon?
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If Stalin had killed 20 million people between 1926 and 1941, then the population of the USSR at the end of the Second World War would've been 149 million (another 27 million killed during the war). By 1957 it was 200 million. So in the span of 12 years the Soviet population would've had to increase by over 50 million people, or 1/4th the entire population in less than a quarter of a century. All this on a birth rate that never exceeded 3.2. Try again.
 
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