Is Islam protected by the Constitution? (2 Viewers)

[Lisa]

Full circle. The Qur'an (and therefore Islam) explicitly tells Muslims to fight (kill) Christians and Jews in verse 9:29. The incitement to commit violence could not be more clear. Therefore "practicing Islam" includes spilling blood. My hope is that such religious observances would take a back seat to the constitution.

Have you forgotten that Deuteronomy 17 exists?

Deuteronomy 17
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

 

[stevecanuck]

Have you forgotten that Deuteronomy 17 exists?

No. It would be subject to the same constitutional prohibitions as verse 9:29.

Whataboutism doesn't change what I say about Islam.

 

[Lisa]

No. It would be subject to the same constitutional prohibitions as verse 9:29.

Whataboutism doesn't change what I say about Islam.

Islam is no more violent than any other theistic religion, so why are you trying to insinuate that it does? Fundamentalist Chrinaity is far more of a problem in the west than Islam is.

Much of the Koran is also in the Bible because Islam can be understood as Judaism 2.0. Christianity builds on Judiaism and thee Islam builds on Christianity. They all pray to the same God of Abraham, but in different ways. As a theology professor said those three regions can be distilled to a 3000-year-old sibling rivalry of which child the father loves the most.

 

[stevecanuck]

Islam is no more violent than any other theistic religion, so why are you trying to insinuate that it does?

That's not true, and I would be happy to prove that to you.

Fundamentalist Christianity is far more of a problem in the west than Islam is.

Much of the Koran is also in the Bible because Islam can be understood as Judaism 2.0.

That's true for the first 12 years of Islam. To that point the qur'an was simply a rehash of OT stories. The only thing different was that Mohamed was now God's final prophet.

Christianity builds on Judaism

Correct as far as I know

and then Islam builds on Christianity.

Nope. Not even close. I think of the three as the letter 'Y'. The stem is the OT, which is common to all three. Judaism ends there. Christianity is one arm, and Islam the other. After Mohamed left Mecca for Yathrib (later renamed Medina after Mohamed and the Muslims ethnically cleansed it of Jews), the tone and message changed overnight. Endless repetition of OT stories gave way to calls for war (as well as actual war).

They all pray to the same God of Abraham, but in different ways. As a theology professor said those three regions can be distilled to a 3000-year-old sibling rivalry of which child the father loves the most.

The difference between Islam and Christianity lies in what God demands in the qur'an vs. the NT. If you've never read the qur'an (tough job at the best of times), you would see the stark contrast. If you haven't read the Qur'an, then I would say you're not in a position to make a comparison.

 

[David Jenkins]

That's not true, and I would be happy to prove that to you.



That's true for the first 12 years of Islam. To that point the qur'an was simply a rehash of OT stories. The only thing different was that Mohamed was now God's final prophet.



Correct as far as I know



Nope. Not even close. I think of the three as the letter 'Y'. The stem is the OT, which is common to all three. Judaism ends there. Christianity is one arm, and Islam the other. After Mohamed left Mecca for Yathrib (later renamed Medina after Mohamed and the Muslims ethnically cleansed it of Jews), the tone and message changed overnight. Endless repetition of OT stories gave way to calls for war (as well as actual war).



The difference between Islam and Christianity lies in what God demands in the qur'an vs. the NT. If you've never read the qur'an (tough job at the best of times), you would see the stark contrast. If you haven't read the Qur'an, then I would say you're not in a position to make a comparison.

You really don't like Muslims do you?

 

[nvflash]

We are like sheep without a shepherd. We don't know how to be alone. So we wander 'round this desert. And wind up following the wrong gods home.

But the flock cries out for another. And they keep answering that bell. And one more starry-eyed messiah. Meets a violent farewell.

 

[stevecanuck]

You really don't like Muslims do you?

It's Islam I don't like. Individual Muslims deserve to be judged on their own merits just like everyone else.

That all you have?

 

[David Jenkins]

All mythologies are absurdities and present immorality as divine doctrine. You can break it into varying degrees I suppose. Abandoning your wife & children isn't as bad as murder., etc.,

I guess you could make the case the past 20 years wahabi Islam's barbarism has been the winner for celestial induced slaughter. Before that, the catholic faith was working pretty hard on employee of the month...

Recent events could point to evangelical Christianity taking the reigns for terror fueling myth though you could say the extreme right of Catholicism is making a good show.

Religions really are a sort of musical chairs of ethereal overlord barbarity.

 

[CLAX1911]

The topic of this discussion is whether or not Islam is protected by the Constitution.

Muslims do not like our way of life and come here to change our way of life into their way of life. They do not respect our laws and the Qur'an and Sunnah does not teach muslims to respect the laws of the kafir. They come here to murder us which is why this topic should lead to some very interesting discussion.

I will quote from the Qur'an, Sunnah, and Tafsir (the interpretation of the Qur'an) to make my case that Islam is sedition to the Constitution.

No no religion is protected by the Constitution. The only thing that Constitution does is great you the right of the free exercise of your religion.

 

[stevecanuck]

All mythologies are absurdities and present immorality as divine doctrine. You can break it into varying degrees I suppose. Abandoning your wife & children isn't as bad as murder., etc.,

I guess you could make the case the past 20 years wahabi Islam's barbarism has been the winner for celestial induced slaughter. Before that, the catholic faith was working pretty hard on employee of the month...

Recent events could point to evangelical Christianity taking the reigns for terror fueling myth though you could say the extreme right of Catholicism is making a good show.

Religions really are a sort of musical chairs of ethereal overlord barbarity.

Meanwhile, in today's paper alone, there are two stories about Islamic-based atrocities. One in Indonesia, and one in Mozambique.

No matter how many times such stories appear, the media and world leaders refuse to look at the tenets of Islam in search of a link.

 

[mrjurrs]

Noble Qur'an 2:193, Madinah Period

"And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone).* But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

*footnote: "(V.2:193)
(A) Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Messenger said, "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people till they testify that La illallah wa Anna Muhammmad-ur-Rasul Allah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah), and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and give Zakat, so if they perform all that, then they save their lives, and properties from me except for Islamic laws, and their reckoning (accounts) will be with (done by) Allah." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 1, Hadith No.24).
=====================================================================
Tafsir Al-Qurtubi,

"Fight them until there is no more fitna and the deen belongs to Allah alone.
This is a command to fight every idolater in every place according to those who say that it abrogates the previous ayats. According to those who say that it does not abrogate other ayats, it means: fight those about whom Allah says, "if they fight you". The former is the more likely meaning. It is an unqualified command to fight without any precondition of hostilities being initiated by the unbelievers. The evidence for that is in the words of Allah, "and the din belongs to Allah alone." The Prophet said, " I was commanded to fight people until they say, 'There is no god but Allah.' The ayat and hadith both indicate that the reason for fighting is disbelief because Allah says, "until there is no more fitna," meaning disbelief in this case. So the goal is to abolish disbelief and that is clear.
Ibn 'Abbas, Qatada, ar-Rabi', as-Suddi and others said that fitna here means shirk and the subsequent injury to the believers caused by it. The root of fitna is testing and trial, derived from the term for testing silver when it is put in the fire to separate the impurities from the pure metal.

If they cease, there should be no enmity towards any but wrongdoers.
If they stop and become Muslim or submit by paying jizya in the case of the people of the Book. Otherwise they should be fought and they are wrongdoers and only transgress against themselves. What is done to the wrongdoers is called enmity since it is the repayment of enmity. Wrongdoing and injustice involve enmity and repayment of enmity is also called enmity. The wrongdoers are either those who initiate fighting or those who remain entrenched in disbelief and fitna."

Tafsir Ibn Kathir,

"{Fitnah} meaning, disbelief and worshipping of others with Allah. {and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone).} It refers to the fact that the Religion of Allah (Islam) must be prevalent over other religions. {But if they cease,} meaning, you are stop fighting them the moment they stop fighting the believers, and thereto Islam they turned; for whoever fights them after that, he is then a transgressor; and that there should be no transgression except against the polytheists and wrongdoers. Narrated Nafi' that Ibn 'Umar said that two men there came to him during the dispute of Ibn Az-Zubayr and said: "People are fighting each others. What keeps you from taking part in the fighting despite your being Ibn 'Umar and the Companion of the Prophet (PBUH)?" He said: "What keeps me as such is that Allah prohibited the killing of a Muslim." They said: "Has not Allah said: {And fight them until there is no more Fitnah}?" Ibn 'Umar said: "We fought until there were no more Fitnah and all the religion (worship) was for Allah and you want to fight till the Fitnah befalls and not to let the religion be for Allah."

Absolutely. Period. End of thread.

 

[bomberfox]

The topic of this discussion is whether or not Islam is protected by the Constitution.

Muslims do not like our way of life and come here to change our way of life into their way of life. They do not respect our laws and the Qur'an and Sunnah does not teach muslims to respect the laws of the kafir. They come here to murder us which is why this topic should lead to some very interesting discussion.

I will quote from the Qur'an, Sunnah, and Tafsir (the interpretation of the Qur'an) to make my case that Islam is sedition to the Constitution.

Yes it is protected by the constitution.

 

[bomberfox]

Joke of the day. London suffered three major terrorist attacks in one month after electing a muslim mayor. This kind of terrorism never happened before. His excuse was that Islamic terrorism is part and parcel of living in a big city! But London never had to deal with the body parts of little girls being flung everywhere before Islamic emigrants flooded into the nation. Tokyo is a much larger city than London and not one single terrorist attack! So he does not protect non-muslim Londoners at all. The record amount of terrorist attacks happened in London while he was mayor.

He's fighting jihad against Britain as commanded by Muhammad in the Sunnah and Allah in the Qur'an. But Allah is just the sock-puppet of Muhammad so its all Muhammad's words if you want to break it down.

You’ve obviously never lived in london during the IRA days

 

[bomberfox]

Oh, atheists have been attacking us for decades and look where it got you: Islam! Europe is the decay of the world this rot begins with the lawlessness of atheism which brought Europe an Islamic invasion. But we Christians already know what you believe. Had Hillary won many of us would be arrested and eventually we'd be exterminated just like Hitler did to the Jews. Atheism is a mania to the mind.

 

[bomberfox]

The hypocrisy seen by you radical liberals is how you are willing to defend the rights of fellow totalitarians (i.e., Islam) but unwilling to lift a hand for all the abuses against the Christian faith. But relax...its all good, don't worry, you're all written in the pages of prophecy: your words and actions and everything you say and do today was first spoken by Jesus Christ. So we Christians know who you serve and it certainly isn't God. You attack the rights of Christians everywhere and then have the gull to defend Islam. This goes beyond hypocrisy; its insanity!

Christianity is the main problem in america, stop trying to destroy scientific research via creationist claptrap and we got no problem.

 

[bomberfox]

You are desperate. The Bible very clearly teaches about the heavenly kingdom that is not of this world. Nothing you quoted is about destroying freedom. It was mostly all Christians who signed the Constitution. Ben Franklin said there was not one atheist living in America during this lifetime and thus he encouraged people from Europe to remove to America for that reason!

Kind of ironic how atheists will come in with the charge against Christians when they see Islam being exposed for the death cult that it is. But, then again, atheism is also a death cult since every atheistic government led to the mass extermination of half the population of each communist nation--well,except China (but they still exterminated some 60 to 80 million people in a very short time frame.

Russia's population today is half that of the United States. Why is that? Russia is a much older nation than America. But I guess when man is declared god man exterminates half the population. Then there are all the other atheist countries who murdered half the population. So Islam and atheism, both follow false prophets, both based on the occult and the mania that comes with the madness of the occult, and both have a long track record of exterminating millions of people. But even the muslims were not able to murder as many people in a short time frame as atheists did in the 20th century. And atheist call that "progress" :roll:

Unsourced quotes will be ignored.

 

[bomberfox]

But, it's not government sanctioned, which is a HUGE distinction. Our freedoms allow for some bigotry (see Harvards policy on Asian students), which I'm okay with...as long as it's not sanctioned by the government. As far as the scotus, my religious freedom trumps your lifestyle choice.

A lot of it was.

 

[bomberfox]

Details, details, details



Lebanon now is nearly a failed state. The problems there are more due to UK/French Sykes-Picot treaty, carving up the Ottoman Empire after WWI. The representational structure that France set up for Lebanon's governance was extremely fragile, & it collapsed under sectarian warfare & shifting demographics. Interventions by Syria, Iran (covert), PLO, Hamas, France, US, & Israel haven't helped either.

Islam as a religion isn't a violation of the Constitution. It's the political & cultural aspects of Islam as practiced in very conservative Islamic countries that are problematic in the US, but not because of their religious base, but because some of those Islamic political & cultural aspects are considered crimes in the US, if carried out in the World.

No, it's not that Islam is conquering Europe. It's that Europe's populations are not reproducing enough to keep their birthrates @ even replacement level. Russia & most of Western Europe have suffered from this for quite some time. Islam is simply moving into the vacuum - & sometimes by invitation. The industrialized West still needs workers, & that population is also in decline.

mass genocide is like free gift. You only need one of those words, & in the case of the first phrase, it's genocide. Properly speaking, genocide means everybody of a certain group dies - it's quite beyond mass, & mass as a qualifier actually limits the intent, whereas genocide refers to all members of the specified group.

Lol you guys have been crying white genocide in the UK since the days of Enoch Powell

 

[bomberfox]

I find it very strange how liberals are siding with Islam over their own countrymen while muslims would love to behead liberals. But, then again, nothing about liberals makes logical sense.

Muslim Americans are Americans thus our countrymen.

 

[bomberfox]

Fair enough. Just know that a parable is a story told with a deeper meaning. The parable is to be accepted as literal truth without taking the figurative nature of the story absolutely literally. The Bible does use lots of figurative forms of speech, much is poetic in nature but all is to be understood and accepted as literal truth without being overly rigid about the figurative language being used. The big problem today is that people are reading the figurative expressions and taking them absolutely literally here in the 21st century English speaking world.

God commanded Israel to wipe them out. It was a command only in Israel. There is no command anywhere on the OT or NT to wipe out all unbelievers. But if you go to the first page of this topic you will see commands in the Qur'an to wipe out all disbelievers on earth until there are none left.



Was Peter supposed to grab his sword and charge at the entire Roman Empire just to abolish slavery? His mission was not to change Rome. He knew the Spirit of God in His believers would do all that in time. There were converts who were slaves and converts who were slave masters. He gave each side guidelines to follow. Elsewhere in the NT the Apostles very clearly apposed slavery. But they lived in a world where slavery was part of the norm and thus they taught the Gospel to both slaves and slave masters.



Actually the Qur'an is already interpreted for you. I have three classical tafsirs: Tafsir Al-Qurturbi, Tafsir Ibn Kathir, and Tafsir Al-Jalalayn. All three of these tafsirs interpret the Qur'an and not just any muslim is allowed to interpret the Qur'an.

Wiping out non believers is wiping out nonbelievers.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

So could you please show me in the Constitution and Bill of Rights where a worldview that demands the deaths of all disbelievers is legal and authorized by the Constitution?

The 1st amendment protects you against the power of government regarding what you believe. It does not grant you immunity if you act upon your beliefs to the detriment of others. This goes for all religions.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Muslim Americans are Americans thus our countrymen.

America must be the only country that routinely subdivides its fellow countrymen by race, nationality of ancestors, and it seems religion. In Britain, you're simply British. We acknowledge we're all mongrels if you go back far enough..

 

[bomberfox]

America must be the only country that routinely subdivides its fellow countrymen by race, nationality of ancestors, and it seems religion. In Britain, you're simply British. We acknowledge we're all mongrels if you go back far enough..

Now that is true. In the past, hooo boy.

 

[CLAX1911]

America must be the only country that routinely subdivides its fellow countrymen by race, nationality of ancestors, and it seems religion. In Britain, you're simply British. We acknowledge we're all mongrels if you go back far enough..

Islam is a different beast by their religious doctrine they are supposed to subjugate you and all non Muslims. It's 13th century religion.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

Islam is a different beast by their religious doctrine they are supposed to subjugate you and all non Muslims. It's 13th century religion.

You think you could not go back into the Old Testament and make the same or similar argument for Judaism? Jews are expected to sell their daughters into slavery. You got a problem with that?