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Is Islam protected by the Constitution?

stevecanuck said:
There was an Environics survey done in Canada (sorry, but it's been removed from the interweb) in which a majority of Canada's Muslims (again sorry, I forget the exact number and I can't look it up) favoured the imposition of Sharia. I'm sure it's similar in the U.S., but I can't prove it. Sharia means living in accordance with their religion, so it makes sense they would want it.
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Not buying it.

And your belief is ridiculous. How many Muslims do you know?

I've worked with many and they are included in my social circles as well. The great majority of Muslims in this country have no trouble following their religious beliefs as they choose. They can practice sharia if they choose, just not aspects of it that violate the rights of others. Same with Christians. Same with Jews, who even have communities that follow very strict Jewish law.

Btw, there are alot of Christians that would see the US as a theocracy and force people to follow the Bible. You are in alot more danger of those fundie nutters getting their foot in the door of our govt than Muslims. They're there now...trying all the time to shove stupid unConstitutional religiously based crap on us. Many here on this forum are perfect examples of this. I'm happy to provide a list in a pm.
 
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stevecanuck said:
Sharia means living in accordance with their religion, so it makes sense they would want it.
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??? It's so odd that some people think that the majority of Muslims do not also identify equally with being American. Nobody seems to make that assumption about Christians, who have no problem identifying as and being identified with being patriotic Americans.

Muslims CAN live here in accordance with their religion :doh Jeebus, why do you think they came/come here? To be Americans and enjoy our freedoms...which do NOT cause them to forfeit their religious principles.

If you believe the OP that Muslims have been coming here for decades, if not longer, just to infiltrate and take over America, you are not operating on all cylinders.
 
East is East & West is West

stevecanuck said:
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I have a question. This is NOT rhetorical, but I would like to know of countries that have a Muslim majority that have purely secular laws. Some Muslim countries, such as Pakistan, have the death penalty for 'crimes' such as disrespecting Islam. How is that not indicative of the the OP's concerns?
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Pakistan is an odd case. Pakistan (the modern country) was established @ the same time as India, in the partition of India in 1947 CE. Hindus & some Islamics (& others) stayed in India. Many (but not all) Islamics went to Pakistan (& Hindus mostly left Pakistan). It was very messy, & there was lots of violence, death, property damage. Pakistan's government initially was mostly secular. Over time, in the 1960s as I recall, as the military & elite jockeyed for power, the government settled upon Islam as a unifying force in Pakistan. Pakistan has since marched towards becoming an Islamic state - with mixed results.

Pakistan is thus a particular case - plus their military is very nearly insane from having lost three wars (I think it is) against India. The US (& Saudi Arabia, Iran & China & others) have used Pakistan as a transit zone for supporting/supplying the Afghan mujahedeen against the USSR, then we abandoned Pakistan & Afghanistan after the USSR imploded, & again as transit against the Taliban & Al Queda in Afghanistan. Pakistan's ISI pursued its own agenda in Afghanistan, favoring groups with US & Saudi arms & money & support that ISI thought they could steer in directions Pakistan wanted. That hasn't worked out well for Pakistan.
 
Re: Islam runs on practice, not on theology

zyzygy said:
So what is the problem if most Muslims ignore bits of the Koran in the same way that Christians ignore bits of the Bible?
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None whatsoever. The problem is with Muslims who do NOT ignore the fighty, killy bits.
 
If Islam is protected by the Constitution, then what protects us from muslims? Lets break this down a little more. What is a terrorist? How do you know a terrorist from a peaceful muslim? The acid test is fool proof. If you see a muslim you ask them if they have read the Qur'an. If they say yes, they have read all, then you ask if they agree with it. If they yes then ask them if they have read all or half of the Sunnah. If they say yes then ask them if they agree with it. If they say yes then that muslim is a terrorist. For Muhammad is the father of Islamic terrorism and the doctrines of terrorism come from the books of Islam as I have quoted here many times but were ignored by liberals who obviously think muslims do not follow their holy books.

So all it takes for sudden jihad syndrome is for one muslims to read the Qur'an and Sunnah, with no prior history or record of violence, and if he agrees with what he reads then sudden jihad syndrome overtakes them through the dark sensation that Islamic doctrine casts on believers and they go out and murder Americans. And with no prior history of violence we do not have a way to detect that. As I said before and will day again: there will come a time when every America will wished we had deported all muslims after 9-11.
 
Lursa said:
Not buying it.

And your belief is ridiculous. How many Muslims do you know?
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I don't need to know many muslims I know Muhammad and he speaks for all muslims. If muslims want to be peaceful then why don't they leave Islam for something much more peaceful? Do they have to follow such a brutal and hateful doctrine?

Lursa said:
I've worked with many and they are included in my social circles as well. The great majority of Muslims in this country have no trouble following their religious beliefs as they choose. They can practice sharia if they choose, just not aspects of it that violate the rights of others. Same with Christians. Same with Jews, who even have communities that follow very strict Jewish law.
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They can practice sharia? I have at least 6 or 7 books on sharia law published by muslims. These books on sharia are well know among muslims, not so well known among non-muslims. You cannot practice sharia without violence and bloodshed and many other things highly illegal by US law. You have not read these books of the sharia but I have. They are complete incompatible with our Constitution.

Lursa said:
Btw, there are alot of Christians that would see the US as a theocracy and force people to follow the Bible. You are in alot more danger of those fundie nutters getting their foot in the door of our govt than Muslims. They're there now...trying all the time to shove stupid unConstitutional religiously based crap on us. Many here on this forum are perfect examples of this. I'm happy to provide a list in a pm.
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You are insane to think such utter nonsense. The Bible doesn't command us Christians to harm or kill unbelievers. But Islam is full of commands to exterminate non-muslims until only Islam remains. The words of Allah in the Qur'an and Muhammad in the Sunnah are not taken lightly by muslims. Your phobia of Christians is the only thing that drives you to defend Islam...a worldview you know absolutely nothing about but you biasly defend it due to your paranoia over Christians who have done no harm to you nor have we blown ourselves up to kill little girls at a pop concert.

Liberals certainly don't mind trying to take away all civil rights from Christians. So this whole obsession you liberals have with Islam is solely a political view and is not based on rational thinking. You liberals always nit-pick on the Bible, looking for whatever it is you can attack. But when it comes to the Qur'an, a book plum loaded full of civil rights violations, you completely ignore it due to your political bias, hypocrisy, and double standards that you all wear loudly on your sleeves, thinking that no clear thinking person can see it. And this is how you're gonna lose the next election. You never learn.
 
Ploughboy said:
I don't need to know many muslims I know Muhammad and he speaks for all muslims. If muslims want to be peaceful then why don't they leave Islam for something much more peaceful? Do they have to follow such a brutal and hateful doctrine?
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Every single Muslim I know is peaceful. Facts (yes facts) show that our Muslim population is just as peaceful and law-abiding as other Americans.

Feel free to show statistics otherwise. Please show that Muslim-Americans are more violent or commit criminal acts more than Christians (proportionally) or any other Americans.

Otherwise that's just another of your unfounded 'opinions.'
 
Ploughboy said:
They can practice sharia? I have at least 6 or 7 books on sharia law published by muslims. These books on sharia are well know among muslims, not so well known among non-muslims. You cannot practice sharia without violence and bloodshed and many other things highly illegal by US law. You have not read these books of the sharia but I have. They are complete incompatible with our Constitution.
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Now this is factually wrong. Sharia law is the set of principles which form Islamic culture. Has to do with how they treat each other, worship, eat, marry, etc etc etc Just like much of Christian doctrine or Orthodox Jewish law. Muslims are able to live within many of their sharia law principles.

I dont see anybody worrying about 'an eye for an eye' these days, do you? And yet, it's in the Bible.

And if it was 'impossible' under the Constitution, they'd all be in jail :doh

You really just exposed yourself...you really do not know what sharia is...just the small piece that fits your paranoid beliefs...the part you want to believe.
 
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Ploughboy said:
You are insane to think such utter nonsense. The Bible doesn't command us Christians to harm or kill unbelievers. But Islam is full of commands to exterminate non-muslims until only Islam remains. The words of Allah in the Qur'an and Muhammad in the Sunnah are not taken lightly by muslims. Your phobia of Christians is the only thing that drives you to defend Islam...a worldview you know absolutely nothing about but you biasly defend it due to your paranoia over Christians who have done no harm to you nor have we blown ourselves up to kill little girls at a pop concert.
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It's not a political view, it's a view of reality, LOL

Muslims have been American citizens for more than 100 years. The instances of Muslim citizens harming other American for jihadic or other religious reasons is very rare

Again you spread your unfounded opinion, not fact.

And yet...Christians target Jews. Christians target Muslims. THAT stuff makes the news.
 
Ploughboy said:
Liberals certainly don't mind trying to take away all civil rights from Christians. So this whole obsession you liberals have with Islam is solely a political view and is not based on rational thinking. You liberals always nit-pick on the Bible, looking for whatever it is you can attack. But when it comes to the Qur'an, a book plum loaded full of civil rights violations, you completely ignore it due to your political bias, hypocrisy, and double standards that you all wear loudly on your sleeves, thinking that no clear thinking person can see it. And this is how you're gonna lose the next election. You never learn.
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Another unfounded stupid response. Please provide factual instances of 'liberals' trying to take away all civil rights from CHristians.

You just post crap as if it's real. Let's see you prove it.

Again, I am a liberal, practicing Christian from a very religious family. I know literally hundreds more.
 
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Re: Islam runs on practice, not on theology

Lursa said:
And several that target, attack, and kill Jewish people.
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Yes. But that does not mean that all Christians are biding their time and waiting to kill all non-Christians.
 
Re: Islam runs on practice, not on theology

zyzygy said:
Yes. But that does not mean that all Christians are biding their time and waiting to kill all non-Christians.
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No, I was just adding to your post.
 
Re: Islam runs on practice, not on theology

Lursa said:
No, I was just adding to your post.
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Thank you. I was pointing out the absurdity of Ploughboy's one billion serial killers statement.
 
Lursa said:
Not buying it.

And your belief is ridiculous. How many Muslims do you know?

I've worked with many and they are included in my social circles as well. The great majority of Muslims in this country have no trouble following their religious beliefs as they choose. They can practice sharia if they choose, just not aspects of it that violate the rights of others. Same with Christians. Same with Jews, who even have communities that follow very strict Jewish law.

Btw, there are alot of Christians that would see the US as a theocracy and force people to follow the Bible. You are in alot more danger of those fundie nutters getting their foot in the door of our govt than Muslims. They're there now...trying all the time to shove stupid unConstitutional religiously based crap on us. Many here on this forum are perfect examples of this. I'm happy to provide a list in a pm.
Click to expand...

Here's an article by Tarek Fatah, a well-known Canadian author (and Muslim).

Too many Muslims support violence | Toronto Sun
 
Lursa said:
??? It's so odd that some people think that the majority of Muslims do not also identify equally with being American. Nobody seems to make that assumption about Christians, who have no problem identifying as and being identified with being patriotic Americans.

Muslims CAN live here in accordance with their religion :doh Jeebus, why do you think they came/come here? To be Americans and enjoy our freedoms...which do NOT cause them to forfeit their religious principles.

If you believe the OP that Muslims have been coming here for decades, if not longer, just to infiltrate and take over America, you are not operating on all cylinders.
Click to expand...

Of course not all of them have that level of dedication. The problem is that too many do. Remember, it only took 18 to kill 3,000. We both know that as we pixelate, there are mujahadeen in every Western country planning terror attacks. But, the real problem of numbers won't manifest itself in NA for at least a couple of decades, but it WILL happen.
 
Re: East is East & West is West

southwest88 said:
Pakistan is an odd case. Pakistan (the modern country) was established @ the same time as India, in the partition of India in 1947 CE. Hindus & some Islamics (& others) stayed in India. Many (but not all) Islamics went to Pakistan (& Hindus mostly left Pakistan). It was very messy, & there was lots of violence, death, property damage. Pakistan's government initially was mostly secular. Over time, in the 1960s as I recall, as the military & elite jockeyed for power, the government settled upon Islam as a unifying force in Pakistan. Pakistan has since marched towards becoming an Islamic state - with mixed results.

Pakistan is thus a particular case - plus their military is very nearly insane from having lost three wars (I think it is) against India. The US (& Saudi Arabia, Iran & China & others) have used Pakistan as a transit zone for supporting/supplying the Afghan mujahedeen against the USSR, then we abandoned Pakistan & Afghanistan after the USSR imploded, & again as transit against the Taliban & Al Queda in Afghanistan. Pakistan's ISI pursued its own agenda in Afghanistan, favoring groups with US & Saudi arms & money & support that ISI thought they could steer in directions Pakistan wanted. That hasn't worked out well for Pakistan.
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Ok. Does any of that change the fact that this 97% Muslim hell-hole causes it's religious minorities to live in terror of being accused of uttering something 'anti-Islamic'? There are several people on death row or serving life sentences for just that. Just look at religious oppression and war in the world, and you'll be looking at a map of Islamic countries.
 
stevecanuck said:
Here's an article by Tarek Fatah, a well-known Canadian author (and Muslim).

Too many Muslims support violence | Toronto Sun
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Thank you. But that poll is of worldwide Muslims, in often much more fundamentalist regimes. We are discussing here Muslims who CHOOSE to live in the freer society of the US (and Canada if you like).

That would show a much much different viewpoint. Those other Muslims often have very little outside influence or perspectives than those of their religious govt and leaders.
 
stevecanuck said:
Of course not all of them have that level of dedication. The problem is that too many do. Remember, it only took 18 to kill 3,000. We both know that as we pixelate, there are mujahadeen in every Western country planning terror attacks. But, the real problem of numbers won't manifest itself in NA for at least a couple of decades, but it WILL happen.
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Or one Christian with a truck full of fertlizer to kill 600+.

Those were not American Muslims on 9/11.
 
Re: East is East & West is West

stevecanuck said:
Ok. Does any of that change the fact that this 97% Muslim hell-hole causes it's religious minorities to live in terror of being accused of uttering something 'anti-Islamic'? There are several people on death row or serving life sentences for just that. Just look at religious oppression and war in the world, and you'll be looking at a map of Islamic countries.
Click to expand...

Yah. My Statesman's yearbook 2015 says that Pakistan was created as a Muslim state. Around 85-90% of Muslims are Sunni & 10-15% Shia, according to estimates by Pew Research Center's Forum on Religion & Public Life. Groups: Muslims, 93%; Christian, 2%; the rest other. Pakistan has the second highest number of Muslims, after Indonesia.

Pakistan can be quite pleasant, if you're part of the elites or the military - which compete for power in Pakistan. As the country emphasized Islam as a unifying force, yes, it's become more & more difficult for non-Islamics. My advice to religious minorities in Pakistan would be to pack up & get out.

Pakistan's effort to manipulate the Taliban in Afghanistan has backfired badly - to the extent that the Sunni & Shia are essentially fighting a low-intensity war in Pakistan. & the Pakistan military is forever gearing up to fight the next war wiith India. Taliban & Al Qaeda in Pakistan have turned on the state & the military. Pakistan's political hysteria is not going to ease anytime soon. A disturbing prospect, in a nuclear-armed nation.
 
Re: Islam runs on practice, not on theology

zyzygy said:
Yes. But that does not mean that all Christians are biding their time and waiting to kill all non-Christians.
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Exactly, yet for the folks who think of people as monoliths this basic fact is intentionally left out of their narrative. The other important distinction is that Islamic fundamentalists are the enemy of non extremist Muslims as well; there have been many attacks against Muslims by fundamentalists.
 
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