Is George Washington the same as Robert E. Lee?

[Perotista]

What a strange place we have arrived. I wonder how many Trump supporters imagined they would one day be in the position of defending Robert E. Lee as being as great a man as George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. They all owned slaves and therefore must be morally equivalent, right? Trump's moral authority on any topic is if you ever did anything bad then it is okay as long as there are other respected individuals who did the same. But let's hear it since this is all about "statues" and the "value of history" and it has absolutely nothing to do with ethnic cleansing and racial supremacy.

Both were once heroes. Washington in the Revolution, Lee in the Mexican-American War. Both owned slaves. But Washington lived when slavery was legal and accepted as the norm in the colonies. Heck, when Washington lived slavery was legal and practiced in around 2/3rds of the world. I think we forget that. It's like human sacrifices of old, the Maya, Inca, Aztecs etc. With history it is all about context and the context of the time it took place, not looking back from today's moral standards. If one does that, one will never understand the why's and wherefores of something that happened in history. One just condemns.

In the time of Washington and Jefferson, only one state, Massachusetts had banned slavery. Several others began the gradual abolishing of slavery by freeing future children of slaves, but keeping those in slavery prior to the act or law passed for life. This was the model for most northern states. Also Washington and Jefferson became president, Lee didn't. Washington and Jefferson were known or remembered for what they did for the United States, Lee is remembered mostly for what he did with the Confederate States.

There are differences. Slavery was the norm during Washington and Jefferson, during Lee it was on its way out. The context of the times in which each of these three made their names were completely different. The first two were rolling with the time they lived, the later was bucking time.

Lee was a great general, that there can be no doubt. Just one other thought, the Jews remembered Masada and immortalized it even though they lost. Not sure if that is germane, but one can have their icons even if they lost the war.

 

[JamesBY]

These statues will do more good in a public museum curated for CW history exhibits than on the public square.

 

[BillRM]

Traitor is in the eye of the beholder. I doubt you'll find statues of Washington in London.

The United States won the Civil War. The Confederate States of America no longer exists and from the perspective of the United States Lee and Jefferson Davis and all the rest are traitors.

You would be dead wrong and earlier in this very thread I had posted a picture of a full size statue of Washington in London.

Next neither Lee or Jefferson Davis was either tries less alone found guilt of Treason.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Next neither Lee or Jefferson Davis was either tries less alone found guilt of Treason.

As US Grant correctly observed, trying CSA soldiers, officers, and government officials for treason would have greatly hindered the healing and fusion of a devastated nation.

The Confederate memorial statues that proliferated in the Jim Crow era are vestiges of the highly flawed reconstruction policies/edicts of Andrew Johnson.

 

[BillRM]

Next first of all Lee was defending his state and his people and for him slavery was not the issue and at least in my opinion and if VA had gone with the north Lee would had accepted Scott offer to lead the northern armies not the south in that conflict.

Next the north no longer found slavery useful and prefer to use the ship loads of highly skill immigrates coming into the north instead in their factories but as far as book value was concern the southern slaves was still a large percent of the total wealth of the nation.

 

[Gaius46]

You would be dead wrong and earlier in this very thread I had posted a picture of a full size statue of Washington in London.

Next neither Lee or Jefferson Davis was either tries less alone found guilt of Treason.

Learn something new every day. I will point out - if you didn't in your post - that it was a gift from the state of Virginia to Great Britain and was given to them in the 1920s.

Lee and Jefferson Davis weren't tried because the country was trying to put the war behind itself. That doesn't make their action any less treasonous.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

What a strange place we have arrived. I wonder how many Trump supporters imagined they would one day be in the position of defending Robert E. Lee as being as great a man as George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. They all owned slaves and therefore must be morally equivalent, right? Trump's moral authority on any topic is if you ever did anything bad then it is okay as long as there are other respected individuals who did the same. But let's hear it since this is all about "statues" and the "value of history" and it has absolutely nothing to do with ethnic cleansing and racial supremacy.

There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil -Robert E. Lee


Lee was pro virginia, not pro slavery.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

These statues will do more good in a public museum curated for CW history exhibits than on the public square.

Right. We have seen your kind before.

 

[BillRM]

Learn something new every day. I will point out - if you didn't in your post - that it was a gift from the state of Virginia to Great Britain and was given to them in the 1920s.

There was american soil added under the base so he would not be standing on English soil.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

What a strange place we have arrived. I wonder how many Trump supporters imagined they would one day be in the position of defending Robert E. Lee as being as great a man as George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. They all owned slaves and therefore must be morally equivalent, right? Trump's moral authority on any topic is if you ever did anything bad then it is okay as long as there are other respected individuals who did the same. But let's hear it since this is all about "statues" and the "value of history" and it has absolutely nothing to do with ethnic cleansing and racial supremacy.

This makes it rather clear.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/...orge-washington-thomas-jefferson.html?mcubz=0

 

[Tanngrisnir]

Right. We have seen your kind before.

Not even remotely rationally comparable. False equivalencies are not your friend.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Not even remotely rationally comparable. False equivalencies are not your friend.

Sure it is. absolutely it is. sucks for you.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

Sure it is. absolutely it is. sucks for you.

No, not to any rational adult who has even a shread of intellectual honesty.

It's nothing you'd be likely to understand.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

No, not to any rational adult who has even a shread of intellectual honesty.

It's nothing you'd be likely to understand.

U Mad, bro?

 

[Tanngrisnir]

U Mad, bro?

Newp. Thanks for asking, tho'.

 

[ludin]

What a strange place we have arrived. I wonder how many Trump supporters imagined they would one day be in the position of defending Robert E. Lee as being as great a man as George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. They all owned slaves and therefore must be morally equivalent, right? Trump's moral authority on any topic is if you ever did anything bad then it is okay as long as there are other respected individuals who did the same. But let's hear it since this is all about "statues" and the "value of history" and it has absolutely nothing to do with ethnic cleansing and racial supremacy.

Those men were great american leaders and icons. They should be remembered for their deeds and what they did.
Lee was fighting more against what he saw as government overreach vs slavery.

To him he was defending his home from an invading federal government.
Did he like black people no, but he liked the federal government even less.

His military genius is one that that should be remembered.
same goes for george washington and the rest of our early founding fathers and military men.

The only way not to repeat the past is to remember it.

 

[Gaius46]

There was american soil added under the base so he would not be standing on English soil.

That's cool. It's a testament to our relationship with Great Britain, or maybe their sense of humor, that they'd actually allow that.

 

[Gaius46]

Those men were great american leaders and icons. They should be remembered for their deeds and what they did.
Lee was fighting more against what he saw as government overreach vs slavery.

To him he was defending his home from an invading federal government.
Did he like black people no, but he liked the federal government even less.

His military genius is one that that should be remembered.
same goes for george washington and the rest of our early founding fathers and military men.

The only way not to repeat the past is to remember it.

Washington was more that just a military man. The greatest single thing he did had nothing to do with the battlefield. The greatest thing he did - and the reason he's considered the father of his country - is that he walked away. Twice (so maybe it's the two greatest things he did). He could have seized power for himself, first at the end of the war, and then at the end of his second term. The army would have gone along with him in the former and many people wanted him to remain President in the latter. He could have become a dictator if he wanted. Instead he did what Cincinnatus did in ancient Rome: he walked away.

We would be a much different country if he hadn't.

 

[CriticalThought]

Right. We have seen your kind before.

Did you just call someone ISIS because they suggested that Confederate monuments be moved and kept in museums?

 

[CriticalThought]

Those men were great american leaders and icons. They should be remembered for their deeds and what they did.
Lee was fighting more against what he saw as government overreach vs slavery.

To him he was defending his home from an invading federal government.
Did he like black people no, but he liked the federal government even less.

His military genius is one that that should be remembered.
same goes for george washington and the rest of our early founding fathers and military men.

The only way not to repeat the past is to remember it.

The problem is a lot of people who like Confederate monuments like them for different reasons than you do.

 

[JamesBY]

ReverendHellh0und, those are the alt right of Islam at work. We remember the history of your Nazis and art in Germany.

General Lee, ludin, was fighting for the South, which mean he was fighting to retain slavery.

 

[ludin]

The problem is a lot of people who like Confederate monuments like them for different reasons than you do.

i could careless why they like or don't like them. The fact is it happened. People decided to acknowledge deeds of the people.
if someone can't handle a statue then they seriously need to get some mental help.
It is good to be reminded about the past. It can prevent it from happening again.

Those that forget about the past are doomed to repeat it.

 

[ludin]

ReverendHellh0und, those are the alt right of Islam at work. We remember the history of your Nazis and art in Germany.

General Lee, ludin, was fighting for the South, which mean he was fighting to retain slavery.

you should actually do some study. you are wrong and that is all i am going to say about it because that is about it.

 

[ludin]

Washington was more that just a military man. The greatest single thing he did had nothing to do with the battlefield. The greatest thing he did - and the reason he's considered the father of his country - is that he walked away. Twice (so maybe it's the two greatest things he did). He could have seized power for himself, first at the end of the war, and then at the end of his second term. The army would have gone along with him in the former and many people wanted him to remain President in the latter. He could have become a dictator if he wanted. Instead he did what Cincinnatus did in ancient Rome: he walked away.

We would be a much different country if he hadn't.

He did more than that. yet some of these morons would destroy his statue and tear it down because some mental retard with the IQ of 10 thinks it's offensive.

 

[BillRM]

Sure it is. absolutely it is. sucks for you.

I am not for the banning of such statues from the public square however most to them was created and put into place in the 1920s as a statement of support for jim crow so they are hardly ancients objects.

History is never simple and sometimes the interactions of history elements can be damn confusing.

It is my opinion, that given the type of man Lee happen to had been that once the war was over he did his best to heal the wounds an he would be for the removing of those statues himself if he felt it would help in uniting the nation.