In God We Trust

[Rich2018]

Why should I care what government thinks?

Because they have things called policies that affect you.

 

[Waddy]

Because they have things called policies that affect you.

I suggest reading Nietzsche on this subject. He has been interpreted to have said "God is dead". What that means is the masses of people, especially the ruling classes, no longer really believed in a Christian God, or any supernatural God for that matter. For Nietzsche, this was a crisis. Without the direction of religious faith and the morals set forth by faith, what was there to control the actions of mankind? His answer was the "ubermensch", more popularly known as the Super-man. Nietzsche was challenging man to to create his own set of values and morals, to set his own rules. ( Because the ruling classes had lost their faith, he also predicted great terrible wars in the future. He was sure right about that).

The problem with this man-centered view is that most people, in the absence of any faith guiding their way, will adopt very personal codes of conduct, and not care much what society in general thinks. That's sort of were we are today. Individuals judge laws according to their individual codes, and circumvent anything they don't like. This also means people have only one thing to consider when deciding on their actions;

Is the reward greater than the chance of being caught? And since laws can't cover every contingency, there are many actions that were once considered immoral, by religious standards, that are perfectly legitimate today because there is no law against it.

In other words, it is now every man for himself. You are free at last.

 

[Rich2018]

I suggest reading Nietzsche on this subject. He has been interpreted to have said "God is dead". What that means is the masses of people, especially the ruling classes, no longer really believed in a Christian God, or any supernatural God for that matter. For Nietzsche, this was a crisis. Without the direction of religious faith and the morals set forth by faith, what was there to control the actions of mankind? His answer was the "ubermensch", more popularly known as the Super-man. Nietzsche was challenging man to to create his own set of values and morals, to set his own rules. ( Because the ruling classes had lost their faith, he also predicted great terrible wars in the future. He was sure right about that).

Great Atheist argument

Karl Marx wrote that religion is the opium of the people meaning they could substitute it for satisfaction in life. But the was well over 100 years ago. Today religion has subsided dramatically and you could argue that social standards have dropped because people have discarded many of their self imposed behavioral constraints

Not sure what this has to do with your regard for government though - unless you too take the view that government can mess your life up because life on Earth is a mere blink of an eye and you'll reap an eternity of joy if you don't complain.

The problem with this man-centered view is that most people, in the absence of any faith guiding their way, will adopt very personal codes of conduct, and not care much what society in general thinks. That's sort of were we are today. Individuals judge laws according to their individual codes, and circumvent anything they don't like. This also means people have only one thing to consider when deciding on their actions...

And would that one thing be their government and the laws they pass ?

Is the reward greater than the chance of being caught? And since laws can't cover every contingency, there are many actions that were once considered immoral, by religious standards, that are perfectly legitimate today because there is no law against it.
In other words, it is now every man for himself. You are free at last.

OK. Of course there's a school of thought that say that freewill is merely an illusion

Bottom line is that you should care about your government. Because what they do affects you and you only live once.

 

[Waddy]

You really didn't understand what I wrote or you wouldn't have added that last line;

Bottom line is that you should care about your government. Because what they do affects you and you only live once.

So here is a Nietschian reply; What gives you the right to tell me what to do? Are you not a mere mortal like myself? And why should I care about something I cannot change? That government "affects" me is offensive. Government is only a group of people who get together to tell me what to do. I reject that notion. I am a free man and will live by my own code.

 

[Rich2018]

So here is a Nietschian reply; What gives you the right to tell me what to do?

Nothing, but the Constitution gives our government the authority to

And you should care about that

And if you read properly, I didn't tell you what to do

I, at best, advised you to care

And why should I care about something I cannot change?

Who says you can't change it ?

Voting ?

Or if you've the mindset of a Southern dirt farmer in the 1860's - Civil War

That government "affects" me is offensive.

So you ***DO*** care (as I suggested you do)

Government is only a group of people who get together to tell me what to do. I reject that notion. I am a free man and will live by my own code.

So you hanker back to the age of savagery ?

 

[Waddy]

Nothing, but the Constitution gives our government the authority to

And you should care about that

And if you read properly, I didn't tell you what to do

I, at best, advised you to care




Who says you can't change it ?

Voting ?

Or if you've the mindset of a Southern dirt farmer in the 1860's - Civil War




So you ***DO*** care (as I suggested you do)






So you hanker back to the age of savagery ?

Now you're starting to get Nietzsche. We are now in the age of savagery. There is no "judgement day", there is no need to feel guilty, or remorseful if what you do is beneficial to you. That's what matters. There is no universal morality or value system. Each of us making our own rules, values and morals. And if you look around, you will see that is just what is happening. Every man for himself.

All government can do is impose laws by force. But it cannot impose morals and values. There is a difference.

An example; I have an enemy. According to my values alone, I am justified in killing him. All I need do is justify it to myself. I feel no inhibitions, no guilt, no shame, no remorse. All government can do is threaten to catch me. If I decide that killing this person is worth the risk of getting caught, there is nothing then to inhibit me. There is no "thou shalt not kill" commandment. God is dead.

 

[Rich2018]

Now you're starting to get Nietzsche.

This German writer seems to have impressed you


But my position on god and government hasn't changed

We are now in the age of savagery.

The age of savagery preceded the age of barbarism

Just what is your criteria for the age of "savagery" ?

There is no "judgement day", there is no need to feel guilty, or remorseful if what you do is beneficial to you....

Just because an Atheist doesn't believe in god, he can't be remorseful ?

He/she can't have regrets ?

He/she can't develop a conscience ?

There is no universal morality or value system....

There never was

Every culture that ever existed considered itself "moral"

Human sacrifice existed on both sides of the Atlantic, both in highly religious societies that believed in an afterlife

The Romans abhorred the practices of the Druids and stamped the practice out - because the considered themselves to be moral, yet engineered an empire based on slavery and with crucifixion and gladiatorial "games"

The early Jews and Christians considered themselves to be moral, yet produced in the Bible, a highly immoral book.


Morality comes from man himself, not from a religion or some holy book or false idea of a "judgement day"

Each of us making our own rules, values and morals.

True, as we've always done

And if you look around, you will see that is just what is happening. Every man for himself.

Within the society they're members of

If it's every man for himself, how do you explain welfare, healthcare, education, transport, sanitation...?

All government can do is impose laws by force. But it cannot impose morals and values. There is a difference.

No one can impose laws by any other means

The difference that you're missing is that in a democracy, the government rules by public CONSENT.

An example; I have an enemy. According to my values alone, I am justified in killing him. All I need do is justify it to myself. I feel no inhibitions, no guilt, no shame, no remorse. All government can do is threaten to catch me. If I decide that killing this person is worth the risk of getting caught, there is nothing then to inhibit me. There is no "thou shalt not kill" commandment. God is dead.

There is the fear of law and the consequences
You obey social norms (and the laws supporting them) or leave that society (or society punishes you) - which destroys you're idea that it's every man for himself. Society will prevent you from killing another even if that other is not capable of doing so them self

So you may not obey the commandment of an imaginary god, but you will obey the laws of your society...or leave...or be cast out.


People coming together to protect one another is called the age of barbarism

When that society becomes literate and produces written law, it becomes civilized.

 

[Waddy]

You obey social norms (and the laws supporting them) or leave that society (or society punishes you) - which destroys you're idea that it's every man for himself. Society will prevent you from killing another even if that other is not capable of doing so them self

So you may not obey the commandment of an imaginary god, but you will obey the laws of your society...or leave...or be cast out.

There is no guarantee you will be caught, or cast out.

There is the fear of law and the consequences

And that is all you have in the modern world.

People support welfare, healthcare, education not because of government, but because they individually decided that those things will benefit them in the long run. The point is not that we humans will decide for the good or bad, it is that at this time in history, WE MAKE OUR OWN DECISIONS, independent of religion or government. Nietzsche is correct, we now live in a time of moral independence, and it is up to man, as individuals, to sort out what is right and what is wrong. Are we to become ubermensch, Supermen, and figure out a new paradigm, or will we each make it up to suit ourselves? That remains to be seen.

Give some thought to mass shooters, gang killings, even climbing suicide rates. Not to mention greed, unethical business practices, and the ego-centric world around us. It's every man for himself. Every man making up his own code.

 

[Rich2018]

There is no guarantee you will be caught, or cast out.

Hence the US jail population for 2.1 million who also thought that way

And that is all you have in the modern world.

And the morality and conscience that man places on himself
What else is needed in a civilized society ?

People support welfare, healthcare, education not because of government, but because they individually decided that those things will benefit them in the long run.

So it's not "every man for himself" if there's outside help (ie: from government) for men ?

The point is not that we humans will decide for the good or bad, it is that at this time in history, WE MAKE OUR OWN DECISIONS, independent of religion or government.

No, we don't make decisions independent of government

Perhaps sociopaths do, not most people

Nietzsche is correct, we now live in a time of moral independence

No, Atheists merely decide what is moral based on their own mind, yet influenced by the society they are in

....and it is up to man, as individuals, to sort out what is right and what is wrong....

And friends/family/society plays no part ?

Give some thought to mass shooters, gang killings, even climbing suicide rates. Not to mention greed, unethical business practices, and the ego-centric world around us. It's every man for himself. Every man making up his own code.

No, man is not alone, he lives in a society for mutual support.

Are you suggesting the Romans with their gods were more moral ?

Or the Druids with their human sacrifice ?

 

[Waddy]

No, man is not alone, he lives in a society for mutual support.

And yet he is free to draw his own conclusions, independent of any other morality.

 

[Rich2018]

And yet he is free to draw his own conclusions, independent of any other morality.

Yes but society restricts his actions, and the government over that society most definitely affects him with its decisions.

 

[Waddy]

Yes but society restricts his actions, and the government over that society most definitely affects him with its decisions.

Only in a risk vs reward kind of way.

Not good at nuance, are you? Of course people can be influenced by what is around them. But it all depends on how that environment is internalized. There is no guidance for that in the modern world. Back in the day a person might think, government says not to kill, but more importantly, my God says not to kill. Today some people might think government is there to protect them, but some people view government as an oppressor and a threat. And God speaks not at all. We do not respect institutions, they have lost their voice of authority over us and what we think. Today, people have no guiding voice over them except their own, they have to come up with it all on their own. That is a wonderful, but dangerous kind of freedom.

 

[Rich2018]

Only in a risk vs reward kind of way.

No, in a morality kind of way as well

As you saying that all people will do bad things if they don't fear getting caught

Because morality is defined by not what you do when you think there's a god looking over your shoulder, but what you do when no-one is looking

Not good at nuance, are you? Of course people can be influenced by what is around them. But it all depends on how that environment is internalized. There is no guidance for that in the modern world.

The psychologist Skinner refuted than emphatically

He said yes there is classical conditioning, there is operant conditioning but the vast majority of our learning comes from modeling

ie: copied behavior
We model ourselves on those we look up to, at an early age that's typically our parents

Back in the day a person might think, government says not to kill, but more importantly, my God says not to kill.

So are you laughably suggesting there was no killing back in the day ?

...some people view government as an oppressor and a threat....

And those people live in a dictatorship, NOT a democracy

We do not respect institutions...

Like which institutions (other than the church of course) ?

....they have lost their voice of authority over us and what we think.

The church has ?
Well yes and that's a very GOOD thing

Today, people have no guiding voice over them except their own, they have to come up with it all on their own....

Plus friends, family (especially parents), society and yes government

That is a wonderful, but dangerous kind of freedom.

Why is it dangerous ?

Are you aware of studies done on the religious beliefs of prison inmates ?
I think Atheists were the least represented, but surely they should be the largest group if what you say had any truth to it.

 

[Waddy]

The world is now full of Doomers.

YouTube

visited any good art galleries lately?

 

[Rich2018]

The world is now full of Doomers.

YouTube

visited any good art galleries lately?

Not recently no

Where does sport fit in ?

The social gathering of sports fans - what British psychologist Desmond Morris called "The Football (soccer) Tribe"

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