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If I were Impeaching or Indicting Trump...

NWRatCon

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There has been significant discussion on other threads, in the news, around the holiday table, about why the impeachment articles do not reference the Mueller report. Some want to argue that it is because there is nothing there to impeach over. As a former prosecutor, I know better than that. My challenge, for the DP community is this: If it were you, what would you charge? Why, or why not? Even Trump supporters can chime in, as long as they are respectful and willing to address the facts. I would have done it differently - I would have used the Mueller report as my starting point. But, we are past that now, as there are already impeachment articles. Where would you go from here?
 
If I was impeaching Trump I'd have to come up with a crime he committed first. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
 
With the assumption that the Mueller report was based on facts...it wasn't. Neither are the articles.
 
There has been significant discussion on other threads, in the news, around the holiday table, about why the impeachment articles do not reference the Mueller report. Some want to argue that it is because there is nothing there to impeach over. As a former prosecutor, I know better than that. My challenge, for the DP community is this: If it were you, what would you charge? Why, or why not? Even Trump supporters can chime in, as long as they are respectful and willing to address the facts. I would have done it differently - I would have used the Mueller report as my starting point. But, we are past that now, as there are already impeachment articles. Where would you go from here?


That was my thought as well. Pile on the counts.

But I think what they did was very clever.

Theoretically, Trump could vacate the first count simply by producing the witnesses and documents he is obstructing Congress with.

But, since there isn’t any doubt about his guilt, having the first hand direct witnesses either attest to it, or take the fifth will take the “exhonorated” out of acquital.

It will also hang acquital, and Trump around the GOP’s neck.

They have the handicap of having a standard bearer that they don’t trust, and can’t manage.

I doubt that anyone has any illusions about how Trump will behave if the Senate acquits him.

Oh, and the relative lack of specificity in the Abuse of Power charge should provide an opportunity to introduce the Mueller Report. I would think that attorneys would try and reference the obstruction of the Mueller investigation by the White House arguing that it is evidence of a pattern of behavior ( watching that objection should be great theater).

And there is also the McGhan case, where Trump’s “absolute immunity” doctrine lost schatingly in the District Court.

Next Friday, Trump will argue for a stay of enforcement of the Congressional subpoena for Mcghan to testify. They lost this one in the district court as well.

With the impeachment set up, Pelosi could possibly wait for the case to move through the Curcuit court, ratcheting up the pressure.
 
There has been significant discussion on other threads, in the news, around the holiday table, about why the impeachment articles do not reference the Mueller report. Some want to argue that it is because there is nothing there to impeach over. As a former prosecutor, I know better than that. My challenge, for the DP community is this: If it were you, what would you charge? Why, or why not? Even Trump supporters can chime in, as long as they are respectful and willing to address the facts. I would have done it differently - I would have used the Mueller report as my starting point. But, we are past that now, as there are already impeachment articles. Where would you go from here?

As a former prosecutor, I suppose you are to be forgiven for thinking this impeachment nonsense has anything to do with crimes. It doesn't. It's about getting political weapons to make Trump lose in 2020.

That's why the Dems don't mention the Mueller report nowadays. It was talked about when it was released and it failed to damage Trump.

Of course, the Dems aren't done with the Mueller report. They have a court case going on right now trying to get the grand jury info from the Mueller report. That's a gold mine of political ammunition to use against Trump.
 
If I was impeaching Trump I'd have to come up with a crime he committed first. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

I agree, that is a no-brain response. You should have kept it in the braincase.
 
With the assumption that the Mueller report was based on facts...it wasn't. Neither are the articles.

I stated at the beginning: Even Trump supporters can chime in, as long as they are respectful and willing to address the facts.
 
As a former prosecutor, I suppose you are to be forgiven for thinking this impeachment nonsense has anything to do with crimes. It doesn't. It's about getting political weapons to make Trump lose in 2020.

That's why the Dems don't mention the Mueller report nowadays. It was talked about when it was released and it failed to damage Trump.

Of course, the Dems aren't done with the Mueller report. They have a court case going on right now trying to get the grand jury info from the Mueller report. That's a gold mine of political ammunition to use against Trump.

That's the closest I've ever seen you to making a point. I mean that sincerely. It doesn't address the topic, though.
 
I agree, that is a no-brain response. You should have kept it in the braincase.

Here's another insult hurled at me. Seems like whenever I make a snark comment like this I get reported and have to do penalty time.
 
Here's another insult hurled at me. Seems like whenever I make a snark comment like this I get reported and have to do penalty time.

I suspect that your snark comments are less relevant.
 
There has been significant discussion on other threads, in the news, around the holiday table, about why the impeachment articles do not reference the Mueller report. Some want to argue that it is because there is nothing there to impeach over. As a former prosecutor, I know better than that. My challenge, for the DP community is this: If it were you, what would you charge? Why, or why not? Even Trump supporters can chime in, as long as they are respectful and willing to address the facts. I would have done it differently - I would have used the Mueller report as my starting point. But, we are past that now, as there are already impeachment articles. Where would you go from here?

I would forget this go nowhere nonsense that even a cave man can see through and hope it's not too late to find a way to defeat him in 2020.
 
That's the closest I've ever seen you to making a point. I mean that sincerely. It doesn't address the topic, though.

I should clarify that. I was hoping to be more focused on the legal aspects than the political - hence posting in the "law and order" forum. Mycroft acknowledged that, and I didn't give that fair shift - I apologize.
 
There has been significant discussion on other threads, in the news, around the holiday table, about why the impeachment articles do not reference the Mueller report. Some want to argue that it is because there is nothing there to impeach over. As a former prosecutor, I know better than that. My challenge, for the DP community is this: If it were you, what would you charge? Why, or why not? Even Trump supporters can chime in, as long as they are respectful and willing to address the facts. I would have done it differently - I would have used the Mueller report as my starting point. But, we are past that now, as there are already impeachment articles. Where would you go from here?

Pelosi said something to the fact that the impeachment process is not political. Since you are a "former prosecutor", please explain the House vote , if it was not political?
It is been stated that if the articles of impeachment makes it to the Senate the most likely outcome will be an acquittal with the vote following Party lines. If true, seems pretty poltical to me. How can one group look at the data and say it was a crime and another group look at the same data and say, no it wasn't.

Explain the proper use of "executive privilege" by a President when it comes to responding to witness and document requests from House committees.

imo, Trump is not a very good President. I dislike his tweets, rants, and attacks. Not sure with what is known it is enough to remove Trump from office. Or is the data showing he is not very good at politics.
 
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I agree, that is a no-brain response. You should have kept it in the braincase.

When a Democrat or their operative attorney talks here, I always bear in mind that for the Defense are also attorneys that argue the opposite is true.

This sham is a shame against the Democrats.
 
That's the closest I've ever seen you to making a point. I mean that sincerely. It doesn't address the topic, though.

Of course I addressed your topic. I removed the fundamental basis for your topic.

Now...you can cry about me doing that or you can dispute my point.

Your choice.
 
No my snark comments are just pointed in the wrong direction.
Somehow it doesn't matter the poster's "direction". They always think they are being sanctioned because of it.
Seems like some posters'd be able to take personal responsibility.
But that's rare.
Many blame the mods.

It reminds of the guys arrested on those C.O.P.S. shows who go off about how they were set up, how the cops planted w/e evidence etc.
Kinda like OJ's defense — the cops're crooked, there's a conspiracy!
Kinda like bulk of Trumpco's defense — the cops're crooked, there's a conspiracy!

When it's the same behavior across these various venues, perhaps it's just an element of human nature.
 
Pelosi said something to the fact that the impeachment process is not political. Since your are a "former prosecutor", please explain the House vote , if it was not political?
It is been stated that if the articles of impeachment makes it to the Senate the most likely outcome will be an acquittal with the vote following Party lines. If true, seems pretty poltical to me. How can one group look at the data and say it was a crime and another group look at the same data and say, no it wasn't.

Explain the proper use of "executive privilege" by a President when it comes to responding to witness and document requests from House committees.

imo, Trump is not a very good President. I dislike his tweets, rants, and attacks. Not sure with what is known it is enough to remove Trump from office. Or is the data showing he is not very good at politics.

Thanks. Clearly I need to be more specific in what I was thinking about when I started:

First, impeachment is a legal action that has political aspects. I readily acknowledge that. It can be used for political advantage, but I think largely unsuccessfully (see, Clinton impeachment). It was, in my view, the political aspects that delayed the process, rather than the strength of the legal case. If the legal case is strong enough, it should overcome the political issue (although that seems less likely in the present circumstance). In that regard, it is unimportant to me whether the Senate does its duty with regard to the present articles.

Second, impeachment is not about crime. It is fundamentally about abuse of office. I could spend (and have spent) considerable time belaboring this point (and have on other threads). That is, in fact, why I titled this thread as I did: impeachment and indictment are different processes, with different considerations. But, I readily acknowledge that the terminology of the impeachment provisions of the Constitution are confusing. It requires a lot of historical context to explain it. In short, "High Crimes and Misdemeanors" really didn't mean "crimes" in the literal sense. Treason, Bribery and High Crimes and Misdemeanors are all offenses against the polity, abuses of the "high office" to which one has been elevated.

Third, I included in my comments that I was a prosecutor, not as a boast, but, as Mycroft pointed out, because I come to the question with a different mindset. I look at the law, and the facts, and puzzle out how they fit together in the circumstances. It is an intellectual exercise.

With that in mind, I will give some of my views:
In charging documents (impeachment or indictment) there are general categories (charge, article), and specifics (counts). There are two "Articles" presently, but several paragraphs that allege specifics. E.g., one could be charged/impeached for "Bribery", with several specific "incidents" that fall under the same heading. "Emoluments" could fall under that category, as it involves private gain from the public trust.

The 2 Impeachment Articles do not allege "crimes" in the statutory sense, because they shouldn't. Indeed, if one looks at the history of impeachment in the United States you'll learn that they don't. Occasionally there is an overlap (as with "bribery" or "perjury") which causes confusion, but the gravamen of the charge is abuse of office, not a technical legal crime - which has to be adjudicated separately, as the Constitution explicitly states.
 
Here's another insult hurled at me. Seems like whenever I make a snark comment like this I get reported and have to do penalty time.

The comments are directed at your posts, not you. Stop playing victim. If we couldn't attack posts, this couldn't be a debate website. You can't protect dumb crap by pretending that objecting to it is a personal attack. That's just trying to protect everything one posts with a snowflake shield.
 
Somehow it doesn't matter the poster's "direction". They always think they are being sanctioned because of it.
Seems like some posters'd be able to take personal responsibility.
But that's rare.
Many blame the mods.

It reminds of the guys arrested on those C.O.P.S. shows who go off about how they were set up, how the cops planted w/e evidence etc.
Kinda like OJ's defense — the cops're crooked, there's a conspiracy!
Kinda like bulk of Trumpco's defense — the cops're crooked, there's a conspiracy!

When it's the same behavior across these various venues, perhaps it's just an element of human nature.

I can be a bit raw at times agreed but then people take shots at me too. I've never been one to bother the mods with reporting this guy or that person disrespected me or called me by my wrong gender pronoun. You think I should?
 
The comments are directed at your posts, not you. Stop playing victim. If we couldn't attack posts, this couldn't be a debate website. You can't protect dumb crap by pretending that objecting to it is a personal attack. That's just trying to protect everything one posts with a snowflake shield.

Oh great! So can all the posts I got dinged and banned for be expunged because they were directed at posts and not people?
 
If I were doing the impeachment, I would focus on broad categories:

I. Bribery
II. Abuse of Office
III. Obstruction of Congress
IV. Obstruction of Justice

There are numerous specific "counts" that would fall within each:
I. A: Ukraine course of conduct
B: Emoluments violations (Trump International; Doral G-7)
C: Golf trips to personal property at government expense
II. A: Withholding Ukraine aid
B: Redirecting appropriations
C: Seeking private gain from public actions
D: Pardon abuse
III. A: Each separate violation of subpoenas and more than a dozen tweets
B: Intimidation of witnesses
C: Other such incidents
IV. A: Mueller Report counts (about 8)
B: Lying to Mueller (perjury in Interrogatories)

Using this approach simplifies that process, and includes far more than the existing Articles. These are concepts, rather than necessarily the specifics I would address.
 
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