I just changed my mind on statues..... Well, sort of

[code1211]

At this point, I'm against the removal of historic monuments and statutes.

I guess that would put me at odds even with previous instances of "The removal of art is nothing new." as well, although I would draw a distinction between a monument or statue of a historically significant event or person as being different than art, especially these days (recalling crucifix in urine being called 'art'). I think that historic monuments and statutes fall into a different category than merely 'art'.

Whether the historic monuments and statutes are 'good' art or not, isn't really the point. The point, at least from my view, is their historical significance. Some are positing that these historic monuments and statutes were placed to intimidate. I'd like to see someone actually prove that, as the intent of another is very often very hard to prove, if even possible at all.

I'm left far more with the impression that the left wants to tear down these historic monuments and statutes for the same reason that ISIS has done the same, i.e. to squash any narrative or visage of anything other than their own, SJW and excessive PC orgy.

No one has yet to answer the question as to if this was so God awful important, so God awful imperative to do, why wasn't it address in the previous 8 years? Why now for Christ's sake? Which leads me to believe that this is little more than politically motivated; exactly the wrong reasons to do something like this.

There should be some way to exponentially "like" a post. Your post was awesome!

 

[holbritter]

you gotta love how America loves to celebrate the culture of violence & death we have given ourselves

we just never seem to grow past the whole concept of continually repeating one bad move after another

somewhere out in the great cosmos there must be some beings of higher intelligence just laughing their asses off at what we do here on this small rock ........

Learning from it is not celebrating it.

 

[VanceMack]

Well, there would have been no kidnappers if not for a market in slaves. The South fought to keep slavery alive, although the kidnappings ended in early 19th century. That was the whole purpose of seceding and then starting a war. To keep slavery alive.

Which has absolutely **** to do with what he said. If you are so invested in attacking those that imported slaves, you best be looking at tearing down the monuments of those living before 1807, when the importation of slavery was banned.

 

[year2late]

View attachment 67221622

So....flash forward to current times....would those "democrats" be more comfortable with the Democrats or Republicans????

(David Duke has already answered for you:2wave

 

[TheGoverness]

So....flash forward to current times....would those "democrats" be more comfortable with the Democrats or Republicans????

(David Duke has already answered for you:2wave

It's almost like the Democrat and the Republican parties of back then are entirely different to the Democrat and the Republican parties of today.

 

[danarhea]

Which has absolutely **** to do with what he said. If you are so invested in attacking those that imported slaves, you best be looking at tearing down the monuments of those living before 1807, when the importation of slavery was banned.

Our forefathers had flaws, serious flaws, but they did not commit treason in order to perpetuate an evil system centered on slavery.

 

[VanceMack]

Our forefathers had flaws, serious flaws, but they did not commit treason in order to perpetuate an evil system centered on slavery.

Do me a favor. Find a position and stick with already...mmmmkay? So far, you rushed in to defend poor widdle Bubba...and posted a bunch of **** that had nothing to do with his comments. Then when your own comments were eviscerated you moved on to something else. ****...your arguments are like...



And I GET IT. Believe me D...I really do. You really are no different than most of the leftists on this site that are full of hatred and like to use words like 'traitor' and 'racist' because you think it is stifling to people that disagree with you. But perhaps instead of your own constant hate filled invective you might consider the words of an honorable man that fought to unify the country and treat those he had just fought a war with like a national family...

"With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation’s wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan—to do all which may achieve and cherish a just, and a lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations."

Or...you know...dont. Go ahead and feel free to post the same empty headed vile rhetoric as the 'nazis'. Hell...I even doubt you believe that all southerners are racist, even sons and daughters of confederates. I doubt you actually believe that people that take pride in being southern ONLY take that to mean taking pride in slavery. You COULD believe it suppose...but I doubt it. It just makes for good snarky hate filled rhetoric. And who knows? Maybe if you post enough **** like that and enough other people continue to use the same kind of bull**** rhetoric, you might just get that second civil war you seem bent on accomplishing. Because its not just the Confederate flag, and its not just Confederate citizens and soldiers. Leftists have been promoting the same vile rhetoric about anyone NOT a leftist for a good few decades specifically to foment hatred and keep this country seperated. Recently...many have been posting the same kind of bull**** about "the cops"..and look what that has brought us. And what role have you played in THAT?

 

[Mithrae]

I'm left far more with the impression that the left wants to tear down these historic monuments and statutes for the same reason that ISIS has done the same, i.e. to squash any narrative or visage of anything other than their own, SJW and excessive PC orgy.

No one has yet to answer the question as to if this was so God awful important, so God awful imperative to do, why wasn't it address in the previous 8 years? Why now for Christ's sake? Which leads me to believe that this is little more than politically motivated; exactly the wrong reasons to do something like this.

If memory serves there was a big hooplah about removing Confederate monuments at least as early as a couple of years ago.

In the wake of the Charleston church shooting in June 2015, several municipalities in the United States removed monuments and memorials dedicated to the Confederate States of America, which before the Civil War had supported the continuation of slavery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal_of_Confederate_monuments_and_memorials​

Of course I don't watch American news, I just saw some threads about it on the forums. I'm sure there is a very very good reason why you have forgotten all about it, a reason which has nothing to do with your political inclinations at all

 

[chuckiechan]

you gotta love how America loves to celebrate the culture of violence & death we have given ourselves

we just never seem to grow past the whole concept of continually repeating one bad move after another

somewhere out in the great cosmos there must be some beings of higher intelligence just laughing their asses off at what we do here on this small rock ........

If it wasn't for "The culture of violence and death" there would be no America, and you'd probably be performing much the same job your ancestors did in the 1650's, and would be under the power of a king.

 

[americanwoman]

Do people realize that statues are not alive?

No, nobody ever realized statues were not alive until you mentioned it. Thanks for clearing that one up.

 

[TheGoverness]

No, nobody ever realized statues were not alive until you mentioned it. Thanks for clearing that one up.

He's so helpful. What would we do without Bucky?

 

[americanwoman]

If it wasn't for "The culture of violence and death" there would be no America, and you'd probably be performing much the same job your ancestors did in the 1650's, and would be under the power of a king.

Why would he be performing much the same jobs as the people in 1650's? Even if we never revolted, we still would have moved on with the times. lol

 

[americanwoman]

He's so helpful. What would we do without Bucky?

We'd live in fear of living statues.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Learning from it is not celebrating it.

Learning from it can be done from a text book, from a documentary etc. Not just from a plaque with 2 paragraphs about the person depicted by the statue.

I expect that American's know a lot about Stalin, Hitler and Churchill, despite in most cases never being in front of a statue of either of those three historically significant figures and never reading the plaque that would accompany said statue.

So yes learning can be done, especially on historical events through the use of memorials and statues, but generally that is best when the statues are related to the event and are actually near the historical event

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

We'd live in fear of living statues.

You need to watch one of the early The Simpson Halloween of Horrors episodes where all the statues come to life. The damage and destruction they caused was frightening

 

[VanceMack]

If memory serves there was a big hooplah about removing Confederate monuments at least as early as a couple of years ago.

In the wake of the Charleston church shooting in June 2015, several municipalities in the United States removed monuments and memorials dedicated to the Confederate States of America, which before the Civil War had supported the continuation of slavery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal_of_Confederate_monuments_and_memorials​

Of course I don't watch American news, I just saw some threads about it on the forums. I'm sure there is a very very good reason why you have forgotten all about it, a reason which has nothing to do with your political inclinations at all

Yep. The Jefferson Davis statue was moved (to UT Austin BTW) from Charleston following the terrorist attack by Dylan Roof. And since that statue was removed, 14,000 black people have been killed by black people. Over 2 million violent crimes have been perpetrated by black people, on black people. Teen pregnancy remains a constant problem. Black Americans still suffer from some of the highest rates of poverty, unemployment, incarceration, and illiteracy in the country second in some categories only to the American Indian reservation population.

but..they got that statue down, by gawd.

 

[danarhea]

Do me a favor. Find a position and stick with already...mmmmkay? So far, you rushed in to defend poor widdle Bubba...and posted a bunch of **** that had nothing to do with his comments. Then when your own comments were eviscerated you moved on to something else. ****...your arguments are like...



And I GET IT. Believe me D...I really do. You really are no different than most of the leftists on this site that are full of hatred and like to use words like 'traitor' and 'racist' because you think it is stifling to people that disagree with you. But perhaps instead of your own constant hate filled invective you might consider the words of an honorable man that fought to unify the country and treat those he had just fought a war with like a national family...

"With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation’s wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan—to do all which may achieve and cherish a just, and a lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations."

Or...you know...dont. Go ahead and feel free to post the same empty headed vile rhetoric as the 'nazis'. Hell...I even doubt you believe that all southerners are racist, even sons and daughters of confederates. I doubt you actually believe that people that take pride in being southern ONLY take that to mean taking pride in slavery. You COULD believe it suppose...but I doubt it. It just makes for good snarky hate filled rhetoric. And who knows? Maybe if you post enough **** like that and enough other people continue to use the same kind of bull**** rhetoric, you might just get that second civil war you seem bent on accomplishing. Because its not just the Confederate flag, and its not just Confederate citizens and soldiers. Leftists have been promoting the same vile rhetoric about anyone NOT a leftist for a good few decades specifically to foment hatred and keep this country seperated. Recently...many have been posting the same kind of bull**** about "the cops"..and look what that has brought us. And what role have you played in THAT?

First of all, let's get your sick insinuation that I have played a role in bashing cops. Here's my last thread on this issue:

https://www.debatepolitics.com/brea...diapers-mother-he-arrested-stealing-them.html

Very telling that I didn't get a like from you on that thread. Why? Because you only bring up that issue in order to falsely accuse someone of denigrating police officers. Hey, no problem. I understand. It's what you do.

And, of course, I am sticking by my position on Confederate statues, which has never changed. Fact is that, if this were a genuine issue, we would have been seeing those statues going up soon after the Civil War in order to commemorate the fallen on both sides. But that's not what happened. Very few Confederate statues were erected until the era of Jim Crow and the mass murder by lynchings of black Americans. That's when they started going up. A second flurry of Confederate statue building began right after the Brown vs. Board of Education decision in the 1950''s, and continued right up into the early '80's.

I may have changed my mind on statues of Columbus, but my stance on Confederate statues has never changed. Your Confederate statue loving side is fooling nobody. America reads you like a book, and it's a very thin book at that, so thin that's it's transparent. We see right through your charade.

 

[chuckiechan]

Why would he be performing much the same jobs as the people in 1650's? Even if we never revolted, we still would have moved on with the times. lol

If we didn't wreak death and destruction on our enemies, we would not have had a country. The continent would have been divided up mostly between Spain, France, England, and Russia, and would have been mini republics under the European governments.

I'd start a thread on this but history ain't the strong play here.

 

[americanwoman]

You need to watch one of the early The Simpson Halloween of Horrors episodes where all the statues come to life. The damage and destruction they caused was frightening

I love the Simpsons and I know exactly which one you're talking about. It was actually the one I was thinking about when I first read his post.

 

[Mr Person]

History should never be affirmatively erased. It also should not be swept under the carpet.


Rather than tearing down statues, I think they should put up sufficiently detailed plaques under them to describe exactly what it is these people were responsible for. ie, note Jefferson's role in the revolution and the farming, but also note his slave ownership, his rape/affair of Hemmings; note that Lee was this big general, but also note that he was fighting for the ability to treat human beings as property.

 

[americanwoman]

If we didn't wreak death and destruction on our enemies, we would not have had a country. The continent would have been divided up mostly between Spain, France, England, and Russia, and would have been mini republics under the European governments.

I'd start a thread on this but history ain't the strong play here.

You don't know that. It's a good guess but in the end it's just speculation.

 

[danarhea]

You don't know that. It's a good guess but in the end it's just speculation.

chuckiechan does have a point here. Fact is, the British burned Washington DC to the ground during the War of 1812..

 

[americanwoman]

chuckiechan does have a point here. Fact is, the British burned Washington DC to the ground during the War of 1812..

He does have a point but can we really say for sure what would have happened? No, we can only speculate.

Do you agree with him that we would all be doing 1650 jobs?

 

[PoS]

It is important to listen to others, now matter where you stand politically. I have always believed that, and as a result, I have changed my mind on the issue of the Christopher Columbus Statue, thanks to one of my right wing friends. Before I talked to him, I believed the Columbus statue needed to come down. Today, I believe the opposite.

Yes, Columbus was responsible for the complete extermination of the Arawak Indians, and yes, the Vikings discovered America first. However, Europe did not have that knowledge, and it was Columbus who make it possible for Europeans to settle here. in addition, this is not the same issue as the removal of Confederate statues, which were not put up to celebrate a war or a culture, but erected during the times of Jim Crow to celebrate the fact that, in their eyes, some people were sub-humans and not deserving of equality.

Yes, Columbus had huge flaws, and was a monster, which is why we should not celebrate Columbus Day. But his statue represents history, as fractured as it is, and as ignorant as the knowledge of that history is, while Confederate monuments represent hatred, along with a desire to return to an era in which some people were more equal than others. There is a difference, and I now see that.

That doesn't stop him and I from bashing each other over Confederate statues, though. He wants them. I don't. My posting about the need for taking down Confederate statues here doesn't come from him. Maybe I will convince him. Maybe I won't. But at least I learned something about a similar issue, which is why it is important that I always keep an open mind, and never shut out people who disagree. Now, if the person I disagree with happens to be carrying a Nazi flag, then that is a completely different story.

I think the Columbus statue should be replaced by Christopher Columbus wearing a Viking helmet and singing opera- we need to acknowledge the Vikings got to America first.

 

[VanceMack]

First of all, let's get your sick insinuation that I have played a role in bashing cops. Here's my last thread on this issue:

https://www.debatepolitics.com/brea...diapers-mother-he-arrested-stealing-them.html

Very telling that I didn't get a like from you on that thread. Why? Because you only bring up that issue in order to falsely accuse someone of denigrating police officers. Hey, no problem. I understand. It's what you do.

And, of course, I am sticking by my position on Confederate statues, which has never changed. Fact is that, if this were a genuine issue, we would have been seeing those statues going up soon after the Civil War in order to commemorate the fallen on both sides. But that's not what happened. Very few Confederate statues were erected until the era of Jim Crow and the mass murder by lynchings of black Americans. That's when they started going up. A second flurry of Confederate statue building began right after the Brown vs. Board of Education decision in the 1950''s, and continued right up into the early '80's.

Your Confederate statue loving side is fooling nobody. America reads you like a book, and it's a very thin book at that, so thin that's it's transparent.

Actually...you DID get a comment from me in ANOTHER recent thread you posted about 'the cops'. Why didnt you respond to THAT one? https://www.debatepolitics.com/brea...icials-say-post1067542135.html#post1067542135

I mean hell...with that one you got a notification it had been responded to. In your thread about the cop buying diapers NO ONE responded to it and only 1 person 'liked' it. Maybe it was because...no one saw it? I dont know. As for me...hell...who knows...I might have been on suspension that week. That happens pretty regularly.

But in a nod...and now that I have seen it...I will 'like' it. I have been using my avatar as a 'Wall of Heroes' for several years now. That cop would be a decent candidate. Like you said...99.9% of the cops out there are Supermen doing an incredibly difficult task in a thankless environment and because of the political climate and actions of a bunch of irresponsible ****s promoting the occasional bad act as a national epidemic, cops are being target and dying in the streets.


And you want to talk 'transparent'?

:lamo