How things have changed: from Bernie detractor to Bernie voter

[justabubba]

Anyone who knows America will never elect a commie. They'll just stick with the Nazi.

i take it your position is that it is not just the tRumpanzees who will vote against their own interests

 

[justabubba]

I meant deep down, can't you feel it? Even a lot of his supporters feel it too i'm sure. Not matter for them though since they also like Trump better than any Democrat.

you might want an intuit checkup

 

[Linc]

Oops, OK, I forgot about that one, but you might remember that it was the messiest of all, and very atypical. Humphrey got in late after Johnson dropped out, and Humphrey did not participate in any primaries so he didn't have how to earn popular votes. He did earn some caucus delegates. You are talking about a convention that had the incumbent president dropping out and the veep then stepping in, and another major candidate being assassinated.

Fortunately this time we're not THIS messy, right?

STAFF MEMBERS for Bernie have already threatened a convention far messier than Chicago 1968 if Bolshevik Bernie isn’t handed the nomination.

(I do give you an A+ for presentation and playing some sort of peacemaker, but kissing their asses and begging for their votes in 2016 didn’t work.)

 

[justabubba]

Why do you make such preposterous assertion that Bernie supporters are also Trump supporters? Can't you see that the ideology of these two men couldn't be any more different? What you saying is utterly insane. Bernie supporters hate Trump and Trump supporters hate Bernie. No overlap whatsoever. If some misguided Bernie supporters voted for Trump in 2016, it wasn't due to liking him, but rather, out of spite and revenge, and to stick it to the DNC.

you had me until "and Trump supporters hate Bernie"
i believe there were a LOT of votes that went tRump's way last time only because there was no better candidate as an option
hillary WAS the establishment candidate and our population has become estranged from the establishment government in DC
unlike hillary, Bernie not being found an establishment candidate is a feature, NOT a flaw

 

[GreatNews2night]

STAFF MEMBERS for Bernie have already threatened a convention far messier than Chicago 1968 if Bolshevik Bernie isn’t handed the nomination.

(I do give you an A+ for presentation and playing some sort of peacemaker, but kissing their asses and begging for their votes in 2016 didn’t work.)

I know. I did post recently (I won't be able to find it now but it was within the last two days, like today or yesterday) saying that in a sense the progressive wing is hijacking the party, and it is sad that it seems like the only way to beat Trump is to bow to this hijacking.

But seriously, what is the alternative? Do you see any other path to victory in November? Because I don't.

 

[Linc]

Just a heads up Linc... you are slipping over the line again.

Bring it on. Mods know what you’re referring to. At least you get licks from your Bernie pets. You gotta love Bloomberg’s ad calling out the Bernie Brown shirts, eh?

Tell me, should I just let your people have the first and only smear on each new thread, or the first and last smear?

 

[GreatNews2night]

you had me until "and Trump supporters hate Bernie"
i believe there were a LOT of votes that went tRump's way last time only because there was no better candidate as an option
hillary WAS the establishment candidate and our population has become estranged from the establishment government in DC
unlike hillary, Bernie not being found an establishment candidate is a feature, NOT a flaw

I was refering to true Trump supporters, as in Trumpers, as in the cult members, the ones with the MAGA hats. Yep, those do hate Bernie.

 

[justabubba]

You’re now an official Bernie Bros brown shirt, calling a REAL Democrat a naive, low-information voter and accusing them of being a trump supporter.

appears you did not comprehend what was posted
he was referring to a tRump supporter

 

[justabubba]

No, no, you misunderstood me. I said that people who say this are, have always been, and will continue to be Trump supporters and GOP voters. Those are not the Democrats. What Democrat is voting for Trump, really? True Democrats don't vote for Trump. Have you seen what the approval rating is for Trump, among Democrats?

What I meant is, the phrase you used as an example is a phrase typically issued by GOP voters, Trump voters, not by Democrats, and those GOP voters are naive and misinformed, they are the folks who only watch Fox News. Democrats know better.

you were not misunderstood
your post was misrepresented

 

[GreatNews2night]

Gee, folks, have you seen what just happened? Trump pardoned Blagojevich!!! Can you imagine? And then, they say his Ukraine call was to curb corruption... LOL

Trump declares himself '''chief law enforcement officer'''

A corrupt politician pardons another corrupt politician.

We do have to boot this guy out of the White House!

 

[iguanaman]

you had me until "and Trump supporters hate Bernie"
i believe there were a LOT of votes that went tRump's way last time only because there was no better candidate as an option
hillary WAS the establishment candidate and our population has become estranged from the establishment government in DC
unlike hillary, Bernie not being found an establishment candidate is a feature, NOT a flaw

Yes who cares if he turns off the majority of Democrats just like he did in 2016. When Sanders loses to Trump it will be their fault for not feeling the "Bern". If we don't get Bernie then let Trump burn it all down. That seems to be the attitude of more and more of you "Berners". It' is a bit off putting and shows profound misjudgment. The average voter just wants sanity and security not another dumpster fire like Trump. Haven't you seen the polls?

New High of 90% of Americans Satisfied With Personal Life

 

[Craig234]

WASHINGTON — Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont offered a vigorous defense of the democratic socialism that has defined his five decades in political life on Wednesday, while tying his presidential campaign to the legacies of Franklin D. Roosevelt and Martin Luther King Jr.

Bernie Sanders Calls His Brand of Socialism a Pathway to Beating Trump - The New York Times

A vote for Bernie is a vote for a political revolution where the people gain power over the big money interests and plutocracy. Which side are you on?

The side that beats Trump, and that won't be a socialist. Read my post again.

I don't need to read the same lie again; you repeat it in this post.

"Democratic Socialism" or "Social Democracy" is not socialism. Communists' "People's Republics" are not "republics". Nazi's 'national socialism' wasn't socialism. trump's corporate socialism isn't "socialism".

Socialism is public ownership of all means of production, all companies. That's what the word means.

You accusing Bernie of supporting that when he doesn't is a lie, one you know is a lie and tell anyway. Because you think it helps you win an argument to lie.

 

[Craig234]

Yes who cares if he turns off the majority of Democrats just like he did in 2016.

More lies. Besides the fact that a Democrat in 2016 who voted for Hillary for who they knew and not the little-known Sanders not meaning he 'turned them off':

While many moderate Democrats blanch at the full-throated leftism of Mr. Sanders’s policies, few in the party actually dislike the senator himself. Nearly three-quarters of Democratic voters have a favorable opinion of Mr. Sanders, while only 20 percent see him negatively, according to a recent Monmouth University poll. That puts his net favorability rating at 53, higher than any other Democrat in the race — and at least 15 points better than any other candidate, with the exception of Ms. Warren (her net favorability rating is 48).

Bernie Sanders Is on the Rise. But How High Can His Numbers Go? - The New York Times

 

[SoCal]

My focus on healthcare are for reasons that I will not share right now (another poster here does know them, by Private Message) for the sake of privacy, sorry. It does come second. Like I said, my first priority is beating Trump, but my second priority is health care, which is why I mentioned that beating Trump is my *ultimate* goal but I *also* care for health care - notice that I didn't put it on the same level. Ultimate is ultimate. No tie. So yes, with my choice of words I made it clear that it takes second place to beating Trump. My focus on health care still makes it a close second and a very important political priority for me, regardless of how popular or unpopular Medicare For All is.

I firmly believe that if it is unpopular, it is because people haven't experienced the advantages of a well-oiled European-style universal payer system. I have experienced it, by virtue of having lived, studied, and worked in Europe for several years, and by virtue of some medical issues that happened there affecting my wife, my son, and myself - all three got state-of-the-art care and all three were restored to full health for a cost of a round zero, efficiently and fast. Other Americans who have not had this experience may be prejudiced against European-style single payer systems, thinking of rationing of care like in the British system (the country where I lived has a MUCH better system than the British one, as confirmed by numerous rankings). So, I believe that our fellow Americans just don't know what they are missing. With more explanations and demonstrations the idea will grow more palatable. Still, I'm aware that it will be very difficult to implement or maybe even impossible, given that it will face contrary winds by powerful lobbies and court challenges. But we should try. It's worth it.

Yes, Bernie will be accused of being a crazy socialist who will destroy America's economy. But you know, in ALL elections, after the primaries, the nominee veers a bit to the center. Bernie is very consistent in his views and unlikely to budge as much, but at least he may be able to explain his ideas a little, make them sound less scary, and acknowledge that he will need to try to implement them slowly, not abruptly. By the way, one of the reasons I like Bernie better in his MFA all proposal as compared to Warren's, is that the latter committed the huge blunder of clearly lying about it by saying that she will fix health care by the 90th day of her term... which is utterly and absolutely impossible and ridiculous, dishonest, and a big fat lie, while Bernie did say that it will take years of transition.

If America will or will not elect a socialist anytime soon, remains to be seen. Remember, all polls continue to show Bernie ahead of Trump in their match up. Still, going just by polls is not all and I am aware that beating Trump will be extremely difficult, but we must try.

And sure, all candidates have vulnerabilities... and one of Sanders' is the fear of socialism... but like I said in a previous post, I believe that other candidates have even bigger vulnerabilities and are even less likely to beat Trump, for different reasons. So far, Nate Silver gives Bernie the best odds, and Las Vegas gives him the second best (they have Bloomberg as first but I think they are wrong about that, for reasons I spelled out in previous posts).

So, you know, polls and statistical models are not really showing that Bernie can't be elected. And if he picks a more moderate veep, he will reassure a lot of people.

I agree with much of what you say, especially on healthcare. I admire many European country's higher taxes on the rich and the healthcare and infrastructure they provide. It's so impressive when compared to us. Our roads, bridges and railways are falling apart, so let's give the rich another giant tax cut.

:aliens3:

I've been lucky enough to have seen a little of western Europe and coming home was a real eye-opener. In many ways it felt and looked like a 'third world' country.

I won't go through the reasons why he'll never be president again, other than pointing out that on average polls get it more right than wrong. I don't think the VP pick will have much of an effect and I believe Sanders would be King Don's first pick to run against. He divides the Democrats more than any other candidate and I feel sorry for him having to go through another defeat. It should have gotten through his thick skull after his last loss that he'll never be president.

I'll give you three to one odds that if nominated (which he won't be), Sanders will lose to Numnuts...

 

[calamity]

You’re now an official Bernie Bros brown shirt, calling a REAL Democrat a naive, low-information voter and accusing them of being a trump supporter.

THis.

 

[bongsaway]

I intend to vote for bernie again come this primary in florida. Last election I got out of the independent party just to vote for bernie. I also agree 'safe' middle of the road dems will almost insure a defeat with their boredom.

However it doesn't really matter if a dem wins if mitch still controls the senate.

 

[GreatNews2night]

Haven't you seen the polls?
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Yes, we've seen the polls. Almost ALL of them show Bernie beating Trump in a Bernie-Trump match-up. It looks like YOU are the one who hasn't seen the polls.

Now, making political predictions based on how satisfied people are with their personal life is preposterous.

Look at me - anecdotal evidence of one, but whatever, look at me.

I'm EXTREMELY content with my personal life. I'm married to a gorgeous, beautiful, sexy, intelligent, and highly impressive woman (a highly respected professional who makes lots of money) whom I deeply love, and fortunately for me, it does seem like she's been very much in love with me as well for all these years, and it is not fading. We have spectacular harmony and rarely fight; when we do it's not anything extreme but rather two rational people expressing their arguments in a civilized manner and reaching a conclusion (when it's upsetting enough, it's followed by great make-up sex, haha).

I make tons of money myself. Together with my wife, our household income and wealth places us in the top 2% of the US population. We are not top 1% billionaires, but yes, we are top 2% millionaires.

Our two kids are extremely well-rounded and successful, highly educated young professionals (with no student debts), and they have stopped being a source of worries and concerns for a long time. One got married to a husband we love, and the other one is about to get married in a few months (we're very excited about it, his fiancée is great), and we look forward to the time when they give us grandchildren.

Both my wife and I enjoy great job satisfaction and almost absolute job security (we won't be fired even if the economy dips as down as in the Great Depression; it's not going to happen as we are too essential to our employers and the kind of industry we work in will never go out of business regardless of how the economy is doing).

So, OK, how about my political life?

Despite being hugely successful, happy and content with my personal life, politically I abhor the corrupt criminal who occupies the White House together with his despicable adult sons and daughter, and I will absolutely vote for change in November, although in my personal life I am in no need for change. Likely if Trump doesn't win re-election I will end up paying more in taxes, so my personal interest would be with Trump, but my political interest couldn't be farther away from Trump, and I won't vote in a selfish way.

So, see, your poll about happiness with one's personal life means zip, nada, nothing in terms of political votes.

I'm sure that in Finland, touted in surveys as the country with the happiest people in the world, they still have elections and they still occasionally vote against their incumbents.

 

[GreatNews2night]

I don't need to read the same lie again; you repeat it in this post.

"Democratic Socialism" or "Social Democracy" is not socialism. Communists' "People's Republics" are not "republics". Nazi's 'national socialism' wasn't socialism. trump's corporate socialism isn't "socialism".

Socialism is public ownership of all means of production, all companies. That's what the word means.

You accusing Bernie of supporting that when he doesn't is a lie, one you know is a lie and tell anyway. Because you think it helps you win an argument to lie.

Yep. Bernie in a recent interview explicitly said that he changed his mind from his youth years, and now he NO LONGER supports the nationalization of means of production. So much for the socialist label.

 

[GreatNews2night]

I won't go through the reasons why he'll never be president again, other than pointing out that on average polls get it more right than wrong. I don't think the VP pick will have much of an effect and I believe Sanders would be King Don's first pick to run against. He divides the Democrats more than any other candidate and I feel sorry for him having to go through another defeat. It should have gotten through his thick skull after his last loss that he'll never be president.

I'll give you three to one odds that if nominated (which he won't be), Sanders will lose to Numnuts...

Thank you for the kind words and the matching testimony to mine, regarding Western European-style health care (I snipped that part for brevity)

Sure, Bernie is divisive, but NOT if he actually wins the nomination, because it is pretty clear that most Dem and Dem-leaning independents would flock to him, against Trump. If he is NOT the nominee, that's when the party is likely to fracture.

No, he is not as non-viable as in 2016. At the time, I kept posting here that Bernie hanging around was a huge mistake because he was NOT viable. Bernie supporters said it was because it was all rigged and the nomination was stolen from him, but while it is true that the DNC was biased against him (and why shouldn't they be? He was a newcomer and not a real member of the party), the magnitude of his loss to Hillary in popular votes - by 3.7 million - can not be exclusively explained by DNC shenanigans. He simply didn't have the votes. I never believed that he would have the votes so I always though that he was non-viable, and yes, his persistence was one of the factors that doomed the Dems in 2016 and enabled Trump's victory. See, Bernie was NEVER the front runner in 2016. He should have realized that and should have dropped out sooner; if he did, we wouldn't have Don the orange cheeto fouling the Oval Office.

But now, Bernie *is* the front runner, and yes, this time he *is* electable. There are lots of people who may still oppose him and may still vote for other Dems in the primaries, but if and once Bernie wins the nomination (and so far statisticians like Nate Silver give him the best odds of winning the nomination among all Dem candidates including Bloomberg), they will join him, and may even have a bit of a thought of "oh well, we didn't pick him in 2016; that didn't work out so well; let's give him a chance now; anybody but Trump."

You know, there's been several other cases of presidential candidates who lost a first attempt but ended up winning a second attempt. Actually a whooping 25% of US winning presidents had lost a first attempt.

So, don't count Bernie out so fast. With a good veep, his chances will improve.

Yes, I know, veeps usually don't count, but this time they will, given that the two front runners for the Dem nomination, Bernie and Bloomberg (some polls still have Biden as second but this won't last) are both 78 years old. This has never happened before. These are the oldest candidates we've ever had. They are way more likely to die in office than any other previous president, Bernie even more as he seems to be in poorer health than Bloomberg. So, yes, this time people will pay close attention to a veep, and if Bernie picks a more moderate one to throw a bone to the moderate wing of the party, this may reassure a lot of people and may be very unifying, and then, with all hands on deck, beating Trump, while difficult, won't be impossible.

You need to believe, my friend! Let's be optimistic and let's work hard to make it happen!

 

[GreatNews2night]

However it doesn't really matter if a dem wins if mitch still controls the senate.

Well, it matters. Even if Mitch still controls the Senate, it is unlikely that they will get a supermajority to override presidential vetoes. Also, the president is the one who nominates judges and justices. Even if the Senate stalls for confirmation, at least they can't get conservative justices and judges to be nominated in the first place.

By the way, what Mitch doesn't seem to understand is that all his shenanigans have weakened the Legislative, and have enhanced the power of the Executive. Karma, backfiring will ensue, because the precedents they've created will make of an eventual Dem president, a more powerful one.

 

[GreatNews2night]

Obama's take on this:

“This is still a country that is less revolutionary than it is interested in improvement. They like seeing things improved, but the average American doesn’t think we have to completely tear down the system and remake it.” “Voters, including Democrats, are not driven by the same views that are reflected on certain left-leaning Twitter feeds, or the activist wing of our party,” “And that’s not a criticism to the activist wing — their job is to poke and prod and text and inspire, and motivate. But the candidate’s job, whoever that ends up being, is to get elected.”

Wise. These are clear messages (actually, warnings) to Sanders and to the extreme left wing of the Democratic Party.

Still:

Still, Obama is always careful to make sure people he’s talking with don’t get the impression he would try and stop Sanders from getting elected, and he even offered some of the senator’s signature policies oblique praise in his first major political speech post-presidency. “Democrats aren’t just running on good old ideas like a higher minimum wage, but they’re running on new ideas like Medicare for All, giving workers seats on corporate boards, reversing the most egregious tax cuts to make sure college students graduate debt free”

This article, though, says that Obama, since saying the above, moved to a quieter and more hands-offish stance, thinking of preserving his position as a popular and well-liked party elder, because he believes that if the primary race takes a turn for the worse with increasing bitterness and divisiveness, he will need to step in an pacify and unite the party; for that, it is best if he is not seen as taking any side.

What Obama Is Saying in Private About the Democratic Primary

The article also highlights that Obama said that AFTER the nomination is in, he intends to campaign loudly and often, for whoever the nominee is, and that includes Sanders.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I think it's unlikely because in the event Sanders' croaked, the very first thing Klobuchar would do is take a giant dump on his platform, and you can take that to the bank.

Define "take a dump", please.
Don't hold back on the details.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

What party will Bernie unify? Dems want someone who can beat Trump and everyone knows it is not Bernie.

Even Nate Silver says it's Bernie for the win.

 

[iguanaman]

Yes, we've seen the polls. Almost ALL of them show Bernie beating Trump in a Bernie-Trump match-up. It looks like YOU are the one who hasn't seen the polls.

Now, making political predictions based on how satisfied people are with their personal life is preposterous.

Look at me - anecdotal evidence of one, but whatever, look at me.

I'm EXTREMELY content with my personal life. I'm married to a gorgeous, beautiful, sexy, intelligent, and highly impressive woman (a highly respected professional who makes lots of money) whom I deeply love, and fortunately for me, it does seem like she's been very much in love with me as well for all these years, and it is not fading. We have spectacular harmony and rarely fight; when we do it's not anything extreme but rather two rational people expressing their arguments in a civilized manner and reaching a conclusion (when it's upsetting enough, it's followed by great make-up sex, haha).

I make tons of money myself. Together with my wife, our household income and wealth places us in the top 2% of the US population. We are not top 1% billionaires, but yes, we are top 2% millionaires.

Our two kids are extremely well-rounded and successful, highly educated young professionals (with no student debts), and they have stopped being a source of worries and concerns for a long time. One got married to a husband we love, and the other one is about to get married in a few months (we're very excited about it, his fiancée is great), and we look forward to the time when they give us grandchildren.

Both my wife and I enjoy great job satisfaction and almost absolute job security (we won't be fired even if the economy dips as down as in the Great Depression; it's not going to happen as we are too essential to our employers and the kind of industry we work in will never go out of business regardless of how the economy is doing).

So, OK, how about my political life?

Despite being hugely successful, happy and content with my personal life, politically I abhor the corrupt criminal who occupies the White House together with his despicable adult sons and daughter, and I will absolutely vote for change in November, although in my personal life I am in no need for change. Likely if Trump doesn't win re-election I will end up paying more in taxes, so my personal interest would be with Trump, but my political interest couldn't be farther away from Trump, and I won't vote in a selfish way.

So, see, your poll about happiness with one's personal life means zip, nada, nothing in terms of political votes.

I'm sure that in Finland, touted in surveys as the country with the happiest people in the world, they still have elections and they still occasionally vote against their incumbents.

Well clearly you are not typical, but congrats anyway. But I am not talking about voting against Trump, he is the most unpopular President ever. I'm talking about a vote to upend the system in DC. That is what Sanders represents. He will be painted as a radical who wants to take away your employer healthcare and give it to illegal immigrants. There are millions of voters who live paycheck to paycheck that depend on their employers for HC and they will not want it messed with. In fact they will not want anything messed with because they worry they will not be able to get by if that happens.

 

[iguanaman]

I intend to vote for bernie again come this primary in florida. Last election I got out of the independent party just to vote for bernie. I also agree 'safe' middle of the road dems will almost insure a defeat with their boredom.

However it doesn't really matter if a dem wins if mitch still controls the senate.

Bernie will take the Dems Senate hopes down with him. That is the sad fact. The could even lose seats in the House in purple States too. This is not the election to push radical change, voters want sanity and security not another 4 years of chaos. But go ahead vote with your heart instead of your head. What do life long politicians know right? Oh and the Florida polls show Sanders behind Trump and Biden ahead.

Senate Democrats queasy over Sanders as nominee | TheHill