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How things have changed: from Bernie detractor to Bernie voter

Elizabeth Warren is *so* toast!

I just saw a piece of info: according to exit polls in New Hampshire, people aged 18 to 29 went for her at a 6% rate while they went for Sanders at 51% and 20% for Buttigieg.

It’s certainly looking that way. She was my favorite candidate, and I’m bummed that she’s (probably) not going to be the nominee, but c’est la vie.

I’m glad that you made the evolution you did. Not because you voted for a candidate to my liking, but because you transitioned to looking at a bigger picture and because you appreciated the value of your decision.
 
I don't agree with your decision, but I can respect how you made it. May the best Democrat get the nomination, and let's vote out King Donald in November!

Yes, sorry to have abandoned your camp... we used to agree when putting down Bernie... and probably a lot of what we said against him is actually justified at least to some degree... but still, with warts and all, with skeletons in the closet and all, I progressively reached the conclusion that he is still the one who gives us the best chance at keeping the party united and beating Trump.

I'm not sure if you read a couple of other posts of mine here in this very thread, where I detailed why I think that the other candidates will fare even worse against Trump.

I'm very pragmatic and I'll always go with who I think has the best odds to beat Trump, and will always go with the lesser of two evils when faced with a choice between two non-ideal candidates. So, after weighing everything, yes, I still harbor many of the same objections to Bernie, but I concluded that he gives us the best fighting chance to dislodge the Trump Crime Family from the White House.
 
Any Democrat can beat Trump. He is the least popular President in the history of polls. The one Trump is most afraid of is Biden. That makes me want him more.

I wouldn't say any Democrat. Let's not get too cocky and complacent. Trump will be very hard to beat, make no mistake. It will take all hands on deck and a lot of focus and effort.
 
It’s certainly looking that way. She was my favorite candidate, and I’m bummed that she’s (probably) not going to be the nominee, but c’est la vie.

I’m glad that you made the evolution you did. Not because you voted for a candidate to my liking, but because you transitioned to looking at a bigger picture and because you appreciated the value of your decision.

Thanks. Like I said in one of the posts above, you were one of the people who helped me evolve into a more positive approach.
 
I wouldn't say any Democrat. Let's not get too cocky and complacent. Trump will be very hard to beat, make no mistake. It will take all hands on deck and a lot of focus and effort.

When you never reach 50% in the Gallup poll you can be sure if he does win Trump will be a minority elected President again. You can agree with that at least. There is no way he can win the popular vote.
 
I don't know which candidate stands the best chance against Trump. It's way too early to tell. According to RCP averages, the main candidates for the nomination all lead Trump from 1-6 points. Sanders is in the middle. Perhaps the best reason for nominating Sanders is to keep his supporters voting democratic. In 2016 Hillary won the democratic base vote, 89-8 over Trump with 3% voting third party. Sanders supporters did vote for Hillary, but by a 75-12 margin over Trump with a whopping 13% voting third party.

2016 Donald Trump 36/60%

Yes, and this time Sanders supporters will probably get even more pissed off if Bloomberg wins the nomination. Instead of this 25% defection in 2016 (12% switching to Trump, 13% going third party), we might see a quasi 100% defection. Like I said, this is most important reason to pick Sanders: to keep the party united, because any nomination that is not Bernie's *will* fracture the party.

Like I said, the supporters of pretty much every other candidate are likely to massively support Sanders against Trump, but the other way around is not going to happen.

The favorable/unfavoable ratings are interesting but we can't forget that American politics has changed, and these days even for the most rejected candidate in history, with the worst favorable/unfavorable ratings, won both their primaries, and in November the most unfavorable of the two still won. It's like a bizarro world. It may indicate that this piece of info is no longer that useful. It seems like these days we are saying "I don't like him/her but I will vote for him/her." By the way, it's exactly what happened to my vote of earlier today.
 
Like I showed you with the most recent statements by Trump, it seems like he is switching to being most afraid of Bernie and to desiring Bloomberg. Biden is falling apart, iguanaman, and all statistical models are now predicting that he will be the least competitive of them all. You seem to be stopped in time, and not noticing the sharp deterioration in Biden's campaign and chances. You need an update, my friend.

Have you realized that this is Biden's third try after having failed twice, and even when he was a lot younger and sharper, he NEVER finished above 3rd in any state or territory? That is an impressive losing record. And then, the first two contests, same thing. As of now in three presidential runs Bernie has never placed better than 3rd in ANY state.

I don't know why people initially overestimated Biden so much. I guess it was name recognition. But it's becoming clearer and clearer that he won't succeed.

Now, if you still like him best, by all means, vote for him, but when he loses the contest, please do vote for whoever the nominee is, in November.

Don't count Biden out just yet. If he finishes in 2nd in Nevada and wins S. Carolina it's off to the races. Id'e vote for a St. Benard over Trump. I hope you will do the same when Biden wins the nomination.
 
When you never reach 50% in the Gallup poll you can be sure if he does win Trump will be a minority elected President again. You can agree with that at least. There is no way he can win the popular vote.

Sure, but that doesn't really matter. The popular vote is a consolation prize. The big prize is the Electoral College, and is what counts.

Trump is a difficult to grasp phenomenon. He keeps having all the factors that should doom him, but instead he keeps winning. He baffles statisticians. There is some weird effect he has on people that keeps getting him out of trouble against all odds.

There's been numerous pundits predicting his imminent demise "that's it, with this latest scandal, now he is done" but he just plows ahead and keeps winning.

And now he is the incumbent, which usually results in re-election (there's been just a few exceptions this century and the one before), especially when the economy is perceived as good.
 
Don't count Biden out just yet. If he finishes in 2nd in Nevada and wins S. Carolina it's off to the races. Id'e vote for a St. Benard over Trump. I hope you will do the same when Biden wins the nomination.

I think Biden's number will drop more and more even if he wins a few Southern states.

However, yes, this is a prediction and I expect it to be accurate, but it's not written in stone. We never know. Let's remember that Bill Clinton lost 12 primaries before he won his first one, and then went on to win the nomination.

But anyway, absolutely; see my signature; I'll vote for whoever the Dems nominate, even Bloomberg, but Bloomberg is the only one I have a condition for: I will only vote for him if he wins the nomination cleanly, fair and square, by acquiring a majority of delegates. If it is a back room deal and a superdelegate interference, meaning, if Bloomberg doesn't win the popular vote but in a brokered convention he is rushed in, then I won't vote for him.

Sure, a St Bernard would be way better than Trump. Even the flea on the back of the St Bernard would be better than Trump.
 
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I think Biden's number will drop more and more even if he wins a few Southern states.

But anyway, absolutely; see my signature. I'll vote for whoever the Dems nominate, even Bloomberg, but Bloomberg is the only one I have a condition for: I will only vote for him if he wins the nomination cleanly, fair and square, by acquiring a majority of delegates. If it is a back room deal and a superdelegate interference, meaning, if Bloomberg doesn't win the popular vote but in a brokered convention he is rushed in, then I won't vote for him.

Bloomberg will lose. I will not mind his promised millions in anti-Trump ads all over the airways during the general though.:lol:
 
Sure, but that doesn't really matter. The popular vote is a consolation prize. The big prize is the Electoral College, and is what counts.

Trump is a difficult to grasp phenomenon. He keeps having all the factors that should doom him, but instead he keeps winning. He baffles statisticians. There is some weird effect he has on people that keeps getting him out of trouble against all odds.

There's been numerous pundits predicting his imminent demise "that's it, with this latest scandal, now he is done" but he just plows ahead and keeps winning.

And now he is the incumbent, which usually results in re-election (there's been just a few exceptions this century and the one before), especially when the economy is perceived as good.

I agree and I think Bernie could lose to Trump and so could Buttigieg. There is no reason to risk it. Biden will win the rustbelt States. Let's save the drama for after Trump is gone.
 
Bloomberg will lose. I will not mind his promised millions in anti-Trump ads all over the airways during the general though.:lol:

Yes, I do hope he keeps this promise even if he doesn't win the nomination.

The one thing I don't understand is, he must know that his odds of plain winning the nomination are small. If he says that his real goal is to stop Trump and he doesn't care if his own candidacy succeeds or not, as long as we beat Trump, then his strategy is not the best. The much better strategy would have been to remain registered Republican, then launch an independent candidacy, come up with with a right wing platform for that candidacy, and then siphon out some of Trump's vote, thus making the Dem win.
 
I agree and I think Bernie could lose to Trump and so could Buttigieg. There is no reason to risk it. Biden will win the rustbelt States. Let's save the drama for after Trump is gone.

Bernie can win the rust belt states too. There are people there disillusioned after their Trump vote as they haven't been helped by Trump, as promised.
 
Yes, I do hope he keeps this promise even if he doesn't win the nomination.

The one thing I don't understand is, he must know that his odds of plain winning the nomination are small. If he says that his real goal is to stop Trump and he doesn't care if his own candidacy succeeds or not, as long as we beat Trump, then his strategy is not the best. The much better strategy would have been to remain registered Republican, then launch an independent candidacy, come up with with a right wing platform for that candidacy, and then siphon out some of Trump's vote, thus making the Dem win.

The dangerous thing about Bloomberg is that he will likely be skimming votes from the other moderate candidates and diluting the "not Bernie" Democrats and will lead to a brokered convention. Bernie is Trump's dream opponent and we can't let him have it. That would be dumb and so like the Democrats with an election that is theirs to lose. A self proclaimed socialist and a gay guy are at the top now. Really? And Democrats say their #1 priority is to beat Trump?
 
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Bernie can win the rust belt states too. There are people there disillusioned after their Trump vote as they haven't been helped by Trump, as promised.

Get real. Most Americans do not want to "up end" the system and especially their employer sponsored healthcare. If we were in a deep recession maybe. But we are not and they want a return to sanity, then we can worry about massive change. Independents are going to hold their noses and vote for Trump over the "communist grandpa". He is Trumps dream candidate and there are corks popping in his reelection headquarters already. It won't be the first time that Bernie supporters elected Trump either.

Bernie Sanders Voters Helped Trump Win and Here's Proof
 
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I agree and I think Bernie could lose to Trump and so could Buttigieg. There is no reason to risk it. Biden will win the rustbelt States. Let's save the drama for after Trump is gone.

trump’s campaign chief Brad Parscale continues to be light years ahead of every Democratic candidate other than Bloomberg. trump having campaign rallies in three critical states (AZ, CO, NV) with two critical Senate seats (AZ, CO) this week is brilliant.

Bloomberg is the only candidate taking on trump. The rest of the candidates are taking on each other, especially trashing Bloomberg now, ignoring that Citizens United is the law for both parties.
 
I don't know what the future holds, but I know that a lot of people are dramatically underestimating the power of generating hope. For some reason the "moderate" Democrats always try to feed us a down-the-middle candidate that inspires no one and often loses. You see Bloomberg and Biden as safe, but if 2016 taught us anything, normal rules and perspectives don't matter anymore, it's a different ballgame. The candidate we need is the person who can get the most people motivated and hopeful, and in that Sanders is the best choice, despite his vulnerabilities.

On a side note, he really, REALLY needs to pick a centrist candidate to balance the ticket, and it should probably be someone who's running. Hillary's big unforced error was refusing to unite the party and turning her back on progressives. A Sanders / Klobuchar ticket would unite the party and kick the rats out of the White House.

Stacey Abrams is believed to be the front runner for the VP slot
to me, that seems a savvy selection; young southern (based) black female with close ties to the democratic party. should help get out the vote - which is the key to victory in 2020
 
Bloomberg can easily handle Trump, and with Klobuchar or Mayor Pete or Warren or whomever, the Dems will accept an "anybody but Trump."

Bloomberg is fundamentally unelectable, even beyond the fact that he will alienate the progressive wing AND the minority vote since he's demonstrably racist; I've already gone over the why several times:

Take it up with Bloomberg. If he talks like Trump, is objectively sexist like Trump ( Michael Bloomberg rocked by re-emergence of sexist remarks | US news | The Guardian) , and racist like a Trump ( This should disqualify Michael Bloomberg (opinion) - CNN | Michael Bloomberg Blamed End of '''Redlining''' for 2008 Financial Collapse | Time ) , and refrains from fingering Xi as a dictator and China as a dictatorship as he did on his Firing Line interview ( YouTube ), then yes, he's a more intelligent, competent Trump who substitutes a Russian affinity for a Chinese one.

If the best bet Dems have is a demonstrable sexist who told a pregnant staff member to kill her child and repeatedly engaged in 'locker room talk' on par with Trump, an unapologetic racist who absurdly thinks the 2007-8 crisis was caused by poor minorities and government programs instead of unregulated private lenders chasing absurd risks and the reckless derivative gambling of Wall Street banks run amok with greed, that unconditional stop and frisk against said minorities is ideal and to be enshrined as policy, ridiculously asserted that "Ninety-five percent of murders, murderers and murder victims are male minorities between 16 to 25", stridently refuses to acknowledge Xi as a dictator and China as the oppressive totalitarian surveillance state it so clearly is, and has essentially no worthwhile qualities or qualifications as a politico save that he has and spent a lot of money, then the party should probably consider forfeiting.

EDIT: Here's yet another winning Bloomberg moment: Mike Bloomberg in 2011: ‘Enormous Cohort’ of Young Black and Latino Men ‘Don’t Know How to Behave in the Workplace’ - VICE

Beyond all that, the hypocrisy of so many regarding Bloomberg vs Sanders is nothing short of astonishing; these people will smear Sanders and his supporters as being sexist, and will attack him incessantly for 'not being a Democrat' without relent, will chide him as being 'insensitive' on racial issues, yet give ****ing Bloomberg a complete pass on all of this despite him being actually sexist, racist and a Republican as recently as 2007 (and an independent since then until literally just now). The cognitive dissonance and sheer Orwellian doublethink is beyond staggering.
 
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Even I've warmed up to Crazy 2020 Bernie.

HORRIBLE on guns & immigration, but FREE STUFF!

:thumbs:
 
I'm back from early voting. My state is a Super Tuesday one and early voting is open; I have a day off from work today so I went ahead and got there, and cast my ballot.

After months agonizing about this, and despite not really being a Sanders fan, I voted for Sanders after all.


I started my comments here this election cycle by calling Sanders a moron, a hypocrite, divisive, vacuously populist, opportunistic, partially responsible for Trump's win, ineffective, with pies-in-the-sky ideas, and called his followers hopelessly naive and arrogant. I said that in my limited capacity of being just one citizen, one vote, one common Joe, I'd still try to do all I could to try and prevent Sanders from winning the Dem nomination, and speaking against him here was part of this effort.

And I ended up voting for him. :shock:

I did it for several reasons, not exactly because I like him more than any other candidate.

See, it's because my ultimate goal is not to select candidate X or candidate Y in the Dem primaries. My ultimate goal is to beat Trump in November.

I came to believe that Sanders is the candidate who can generate the most enthusiasm, the most turnout, and is maybe the only one who can be competitive (as long as he picks a good veep) and beat Trump (although it won't be easy - but I think all the others are even worse equipped to beat Trump). I also warmed up to his Medicare For All proposal, despite being against it in the past, and since health care is a big focus for me, it was a big motivator for my vote: maybe it is time after all for single payer in America, and no president will be as enthusiastic about it as Bernie Sanders, so, this may be the one decent shot at doing it (although I remain very skeptical that it can be done, and worried about unintended consequences and turmoil - but I guess we can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs).

I also stopped worrying about moderates being alienated by Sanders and sitting out. You know, first of all, this is probably an exaggerated concern. The only people among moderates and independents who may come over to the Dem side are the anti-Trump folks, and those are almost guaranteed to prefer Sanders to Trump even if they don't particularly like Sanders. The moderates and independents who are for Trump won't come around and vote for any Dem, anyway. They are lost causes already.

Besides, Bernie's most radical ideas that spook moderates are not even likely to pass Congress, even if both houses get a Democratic supermajority, which is very unlikely anyway. If the Dems don't get both chambers and with a comfortable majority, then Sanders ideas won't pass anyway. It's not like America will turn "communist" (and I know, he is not communist) with widespread nationalizations and a Great Depression kind of Wall Street collapse if Sanders wins. Life will continue. Capitalism will survive.

Sanders regardless of what he does or doesn't do, or is not allowed to do (by means of congressional obstructionism), will still nominate judges and justices much more attentive to the rights of the citizens, in order to balance a bit the right-leaning courts that have been stuffed with people nominated by Trump who will be always more likely to find for the interests of corporations rather than the interests of the people.

Now, don't disappoint me, Senator Sanders!

I do hope that he picks a veep like Val Demings or Sherrod Brown or Stacey Abrams rather than one like Ayanna Presley or campaign insiders Nina Turner or Ro Khanna. He needs to show some ability to compromise and make concessions, and to reach out to the rest of the party beyond his circle of ultra-progressive people.


I'd prefer to see him pick someone to his right (even if still progressive) rather than an ideological twin. And if it's a youngish female of color, even better, because she will add some demographics to the ticket and enhance its support in November.

OK, so, Go Bernie!

I just hope that if he is not nominated, his followers will still vote Dem, as long as it is in a fair process.

I actually like Sanders for many reasons but he is dead wrong in his views on good government and American freedoms and rights.
 
Bloomberg's ads and memes are already enraging Trump as he realizes that America increasingly laughing at his Trumpian foolishness. Your arguments, Craig, are silliness embodied, but don't worry, for your hatred and fear are going to grow immensely over the next few months.

Enraging trump doesn't win an election, and your posts are not worth reading going forward.
 
trump’s campaign chief Brad Parscale continues to be light years ahead of every Democratic candidate other than Bloomberg. trump having campaign rallies in three critical states (AZ, CO, NV) with two critical Senate seats (AZ, CO) this week is brilliant.

Bloomberg is the only candidate taking on trump. The rest of the candidates are taking on each other, especially trashing Bloomberg now, ignoring that Citizens United is the law for both parties.

Bloomberg is splitting the not Bernie vote. We can't have a candidate that has 30% support by the party and is not even a Democrat. That is not how you defeat an incumbent President. It is a disaster of our own making.
 
Bloomberg is splitting the not Bernie vote. We can't have a candidate that has 30% support by the party and is not even a Democrat. That is not how you defeat an incumbent President. It is a disaster of our own making.

You're just an ant-Democratic Party Bernie hate not interested in the truth. trump was polling 31% in 2016 at the New Hampshire primary. Huh, guess that can win - and if the top poller can't win, how is someone less than that going to win? Don't like the 30%? Support Bernie and make it higher. And Bernie is a Democrat. Are YOU a Democrat? Are YOU in the Democratic Party Senate leadership like Bernie?
 
Bloomberg is splitting the not Bernie vote. We can't have a candidate that has 30% support by the party and is not even a Democrat. That is not how you defeat an incumbent President. It is a disaster of our own making.

Uh, Bloomberg isn't a Democrat; Bloomberg was in fact a Republican until 2007, and wasn't a Democrat until literally just now.

And so far as we know, Bloomberg has about half the support Sanders does.

You don't defeat Trump with another racist, sexist billionaire asshole.
 
Get real. Most Americans do not want to "up end" the system and especially their employer sponsored healthcare. If we were in a deep recession maybe. But we are not and they want a return to sanity, then we can worry about massive change. Independents are going to hold their noses and vote for Trump over the "communist grandpa". He is Trumps dream candidate and there are corks popping in his reelection headquarters already. It won't be the first time that Bernie supporters elected Trump either.

Bernie Sanders Voters Helped Trump Win and Here's Proof

Why is it that despite my showing you some contrary data to what you are saying, you just ignore it and plow ahead? Did you actually read the links I gave you? Seems like Trump is now saying that he prefers to run against Bloomberg and fears Bernie because "Bernie has followers." That's a direct quote from a recent Trump interview. I gave you the link and the quote in an earlier post above.

You say that most Americans are against Medicare For All. That's false. Look here; 70% of Americans want it:

70 percent of Americans support 'Medicare for all' proposal | TheHill

The ones who don't are Trump voters anyway. You need to understand that there are a lot of people who are under-insured, not insured, or VA-insured and are not that happy with employer-sponsored coverage. And many people who despite having decent employer-sponsored coverage are upset at the co-pays, deductible, and co-insurance and actually understand that a single payer system will result in savings for them. Three are also those who already have Medicare and like it. Whatever the reason, now 70% of Americans support Medicare For All so your info on this is outdated. This percentage is likely to go even higher when more people understand the advantages of Medicare For All as the campaign progresses.

You say that Independents don't like Bernie. That's also false. It's the very opposite. Bernie does better among independents than among Democrats:

Sanders does much better among independents than among Democrats. In New Hampshire, for instance, Sanders won Democrats by 4 percentage points while winning independents by nearly 50 percentage points, a split we’ve seen repeatedly since then.1 Some of Sanders’s strongest performances in primaries have come in places such as New Hampshire, Michigan and Wisconsin, states whose rules allow independents to vote in either primary.

Why Sanders Does Better With Independents | FiveThirtyEight

And look here:

Sanders Crushes Trump by 18 Points Among Independent Voters in New National General Election Poll | Common Dreams News

18+ over Trump among independents!!!!

Yes, I know that in 2016 12% Bernie voters switched sides an 13% went third party.

But this is an even bigger reason to pick Sanders this time. The way things are going, there will be an even bigger proportion of Bernie fans jumping ship if Biden or Bloomberg win. Close to 100%, I think, if Bloomberg wins, and maybe 50% if Biden wins. Fractured, the Democratic Party won't win, period. Regardless of the reasons for it, regardless of this being a stupid position (I think it is because it will allow Trump to continue to erode democracy and continue to nominate conservative federal judges and SC justices), it's the reality so if we want to avoid a loss in November, maybe we should just say, "OK, so be it", join Bernie (like I did) and do our best to convince him to pick a more moderate veep, join forces, and kick out the Trump Crime Family from the White House.

Now, tell me, is this your way to debate? I show you clear data pointing to the contrary of what you are saying, and you just ignore it and plow ahead with the same outdated opinion???

You say Biden is the best bet... when statisticians and Vegas are now saying that he is the Dem candidate LEAST likely to beat Trump.

You need to understand that these things are dynamic, and Biden's chances are way lower now than they were a couple of months ago. You're stopped in time. Get an update, man!
 
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