How often has Trump changed his story on Ukraine? Let us count the ways

[charliebrown]

He tried to extort and bribe a foreign country to provide dirt on a US citizen, one that "just happened" to be his biggest threat to his reelection. THAT IS ILLEGAL, PERIOD!

Don't you give any importance to upholding the laws written in the U.S. Constitution? Not even a tiny bit? If you dismiss the constitution as just a piece of paper, where do the rest of our laws go? Where does our democracy end up? Who gets to uphold those laws? THAT is where the threat to our very national security starts.

****, damn, son of a Bitch, holly crap, I get it, I get it, I get it. That is absolutely correct until I read the constitution and it says the President is the top law enforcement official in this country and Joe Biden and his son muddied the waters up by being involved with Ukraine. I will also agree with you that Trump is a F___ing idiot and he cannot think like a seasoned cynical politician. All he had to do is say I want you to investigate the OBAMA ADMINISTRATION for a Quid Pro Quo that occurred and he would have been absolutely legal in this request? Instead the dumbass more specifically identified Biden and that is what everyone screams and yells about.

You can't investigate Hillary Clinton because she is not the president of the US and you can't investigate Biden because he is running for the office of the President of the US. That does piss people off, but is still no excuse for Trump stupidity.

I get it, I really do get it, But I would be so much happier if we accept the outcome of this BS Impeachment fiasco and Congress starts writing some really good laws.

I would say let's write the Law called the Trump prevention act. This law would not prevent Trump from all of his past transgressions, but it would prevent him or any other asshole (and we will elect more assholes) from doing it in the future.

At this point, congress, the media and the political system can spend all of their time on Impeachment, or they can start doing great work for the country and letting the people vote him out one year from now.

I am an independent who wishes government would start working fro the benefit of the people, rich, middle class and poor more than they work for themselves.

 

[HumblePi]

****, damn, son of a Bitch, holly crap, I get it, I get it, I get it. That is absolutely correct until I read the constitution and it says the President is the top law enforcement official in this country and Joe Biden and his son muddied the waters up by being involved with Ukraine. I will also agree with you that Trump is a F___ing idiot and he cannot think like a seasoned cynical politician. All he had to do is say I want you to investigate the OBAMA ADMINISTRATION for a Quid Pro Quo that occurred and he would have been absolutely legal in this request? Instead the dumbass more specifically identified Biden and that is what everyone screams and yells about.

You can't investigate Hillary Clinton because she is not the president of the US and you can't investigate Biden because he is running for the office of the President of the US. That does piss people off, but is still no excuse for Trump stupidity.

I get it, I really do get it, But I would be so much happier if we accept the outcome of this BS Impeachment fiasco and Congress starts writing some really good laws. There's 500 bills passed by the House, five-hundred of them.... that Mitch McConnell refused to bring to the floor of the Senate. Who's the obstructionist in getting new laws enacted?

I would say let's write the Law called the Trump prevention act. This law would not prevent Trump from all of his past transgressions, but it would prevent him or any other asshole (and we will elect more assholes) from doing it in the future.

At this point, congress, the media and the political system can spend all of their time on Impeachment, or they can start doing great work for the country and letting the people vote him out one year from now.

I am an independent who wishes government would start working fro the benefit of the people, rich, middle class and poor more than they work for themselves.

We only want a government that follows the rule of law. There's been 500 (five-hundred) bills passed in the House that went to the Senate that Mitch McConnell flat out refused to bring to a vote. Who's the obstructionist?

 

[charliebrown]

We only want a government that follows the rule of law. There's been 500 (five-hundred) bills passed in the House that went to the Senate that Mitch McConnell flat out refused to bring to a vote. Who's the obstructionist?

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/statistics

Historic context on how effective many of our wonderful congresses have been. There really are obstructionist on both sides of the isles. Passing completely partisan bills in congress and expecting the other party to sign it is a joke.

How many Bipartisan Bills have been passed in congress?

 

[bullseyelqcs]

If presidential felony perjury is not a "high crime or misdemeanor" then why is (attempted?) extortion? IMHO, they are both illegal yet fall short of reason to remove a sitting POTUS from office.

IMHO, the real reason for objection to this extortion (while accepting the Joe Biden "fire that guy in six hours or else" extortion) is simply based on the alleged motive. In other words, political motive is super-duper important for judging Trump's actions but not at all important for judging the "whistleblower's" actions.

It is worth noting that both Biden and Trump allege that they saw using extortion (making the release of US foreign aid funds conditional) as a (necessary and valid?) tactic to try to counter Ukrainian corruption.

Lets cover this slowly.

What Biden did, he did on behalf of like 10 other nations who were tired of seeing the aid money they were sending being funneled to illicit activities and corrupt people, and the prosecutor protecting said individuals. There was no PERSONAL motive for that act, as his son had already been cleared of any wrongdoing in the investigation into the company he worked for.

Contrast that with Trump, who had LOTS to gain personally from the Ukrainian president coming out and saying that he was going to reopen an investigation that found no wrongdoing on the part of the son of his probable opponent in the next election.

Trumps desire had nothing to do with stopping Ukrainian corruption, but instead hoping to capitalize on it by having them attempt to find ANYTHING he could use against Biden, which they didn't find when they did the original investigation.

 

[Airyaman]

If presidential felony perjury is not a "high crime or misdemeanor" then why is (attempted?) extortion? IMHO, they are both illegal yet fall short of reason to remove a sitting POTUS from office.

IMHO, the real reason for objection to this extortion (while accepting the Joe Biden "fire that guy in six hours or else" extortion) is simply based on the alleged motive. In other words, political motive is super-duper important for judging Trump's actions but not at all important for judging the "whistleblower's" actions.

It is worth noting that both Biden and Trump allege that they saw using extortion (making the release of US foreign aid funds conditional) as a (necessary and valid?) tactic to try to counter Ukrainian corruption.

When I first joined this board, I saw you as a fair-minded "conservative". On here, "conservative" seems to be mostly people who support Trump no matter what, so you stood out as someone with seemingly "conservative" views, yet not a Trump supporter.

Seems that has changed these last several months. You are not fully caught up in the cult but you seem awfully chummy about excusing corrupt actions in the name of Trump.

That said, you seem to make equivalence between a person who abuses his power as the #1 political figure in the US, perhaps in all of the free world, to interact with foreign governments, to a salaried person in government employment who wanted to report suspected wrongdoing by former personage.

Maybe the person who reported the wrong-doing is biased in some fashion. Yet, it seems the only power the person has is a legal ability to blow the whistle on suspected wrong-doing. Bias aside...what has been proven wrong about the complaint?

There is no equivalence. One relied on a law to report suspected wrong-doing, the other just did the **** all he wanted because he is president and wants to rub your faces in his power.

Stop sucking up to him.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Lets cover this slowly.

What Biden did, he did on behalf of like 10 other nations who were tired of seeing the aid money they were sending being funneled to illicit activities and corrupt people, and the prosecutor protecting said individuals. There was no PERSONAL motive for that act, as his son had already been cleared of any wrongdoing in the investigation into the company he worked for.

Contrast that with Trump, who had LOTS to gain personally from the Ukrainian president coming out and saying that he was going to reopen an investigation that found no wrongdoing on the part of the son of his probable opponent in the next election.

Trumps desire had nothing to do with stopping Ukrainian corruption, but instead hoping to capitalize on it by having them attempt to find ANYTHING he could use against Biden, which they didn't find when they did the original investigation.

Citation required for that (bolded above) assertion.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

Citation required for that (bolded above) assertion.

Hunter Biden '''did not violate anything,''' former Ukrainian prosecutor says

Not that it will matter, but there you go.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Hunter Biden '''did not violate anything,''' former Ukrainian prosecutor says

Not that it will matter, but there you go.

It does matter but:

Lutsenko, who served as Ukraine's prosecutor general from May 2016 until last month, closed the investigation into the gas company Burisma and its oligarch owner in 2017

How, exactly, was an investigation done after the fact supposed to have "already cleared his son"?

It is amazing how someone who started investigating in 2016 can make such definitive statements about what alleged prior investigations "might" not have found.

Lutsenko added that whatever wrongdoing there might have been at Burisma took place before Hunter Biden joined the company.

“Hunter Biden cannot be responsible for violations of the management of Burisma that took place two years before his arrival,” Lutsenko told the Post.

Never mentioned, of course, was who did investigate Burisma or why it went on for many (7?) years (but we do know who closed that investigation) and "whatever wrongdoing might have taken place" was never described at all. This is simply a cover piece for Hunter Biden.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

It does matter but:



How, exactly, was an investigation done after the fact supposed to have "already cleared his son"?

It is amazing how someone who started investigating in 2016 can make such definitive statements about what alleged prior investigations "might" not have found.



Never mentioned, of course, was who did investigate Burisma or why it went on for many (7?) years (but we do know who closed that investigation) and "whatever wrongdoing might have taken place" was never described at all. This is simply a cover piece for Hunter Biden.

How is it a cover piece for Biden? Whatever wrongdoing DID happen occured before he got to Burisma. The real question would the become why investigating them again would have anything to do with him, as those who DID do the original investigation had already stated he had nothing to do with any of it? The answer, of course, is that it really doesn't have anything to do with him, and the request was nothing more than a way to smear his father.

 

[JustHanging]

Something being illegal is not proof that it posed a national security threat. Give up on that nonsense.

Extorting a foreign government to dig up dirt on a political rival is a national security threat. It's illegal, and leaves the POTUS open to blackmail. That's up near the top of national security threats imo.

 

[yankintx]

If presidential felony perjury is not a "high crime or misdemeanor" then why is (attempted?) extortion? IMHO, they are both illegal yet fall short of reason to remove a sitting POTUS from office.

IMHO, the real reason for objection to this extortion (while accepting the Joe Biden "fire that guy in six hours or else" extortion) is simply based on the alleged motive. In other words, political motive is super-duper important for judging Trump's actions but not at all important for judging the "whistleblower's" actions.

It is worth noting that both Biden and Trump allege that they saw using extortion (making the release of US foreign aid funds conditional) as a (necessary and valid?) tactic to try to counter Ukrainian corruption.

Can you cite additional examples were Trump with held Congressional appropiated funds in fighting Ukranian corruption in addition to Hunter ? Surely there must be other examples to prove Trumps Ukranian corruption fight. Otherwise focusing on ONLY Bidens Son appears politically motivated, would you agree? The GOP can hang on Trumps defense as corruption fighting all they want, I am not buying it, nor is anyone else outside his base.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

Can you cite additional examples were Trump with held Congressional appropiated funds in fighting Ukranian corruption in addition to Hunter ? Surely there must be other examples to prove Trumps Ukranian corruption fight. Otherwise focusing on ONLY Bidens Son appears politically motivated, would you agree? The GOP can hang on Trumps defense as corruption fighting all they want, I am not buying it, nor is anyone else outside his base.

Someone should really ask the President the loaded question of if he believes that there is no longer corruption in Ukraine. If he says no, then why would there need to be any further investigation. If he says yes, then why did he go back on his own order and release the funds?

The answer to both questions, of course, is actually the same. In either case, it was nothing more than an attempt to get a foreign government to smear a political rival.

 

[Rogue Valley]

How, exactly, was "OUR national security" affected? Keeping in mind that Obama withheld all "lethal" military aid to Ukraine.

Our national security does not have to be impacted for a president to commit high crimes (abuse of power, bribery, etc) and misdemeanors.

Where do you get this diversionary stuff? Jim Jordan?

 

[CaughtInThe]

Liars like Donald Trump just lie.

And many times they convince themselves that they are truthful and honorable. I bet he thinks he is.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Citation required for that (bolded above) assertion.

Ukraine Prosecutor Says No Evidence of Wrongdoing by Bidens

Joe Biden and son Hunter cleared of wrongdoing by Ukraine prosecutor

No reason to probe Bidens: former Ukraine prosecutor

Anything else I can assist you with?