How do you feel about private education?

[BabaVoss]

Hi BabaVoss,

I see I have not been clear. I actually agree with most of what you say.

Glad to hear it.

The point I was trying to make is simple. Let's say the government spends 1,000USD per child per year. If parents decide to put their children in a private school, I think it sounds reasonable that a percentage of that 1,000 is still forwarded to the private school.

Disagree. Why should tax dollars intend for public education ever go to a private school? You have stated several times that you think it reasonable, but you haven't explained your reasoning.
Why should the taxpayers be expected to ease a burden parents placed on themselves?
Very often parents who send their kids to private schools are wealthy.
If they choose to do so they should be able to afford it. Should we be subsidizing the wealthy this way?

it also saves the government money if these kids do not show up in school.

Will a public school system reduce their costs because some students and some dollars they used to get have gone to a private entity?
Will they shrink the size of their buildings?
Pay their teachers less?
Will their maintenance and utility bills be lower?
How will they plan for future school years, not knowing what the population that shows up will be?

Sounds very reasonable to me. In the end of the day,

I'd get that you find it reasonable, but I'd like to understand why. I'm not seeing that.

One other disturbing aspect of this trend is that it seems to be a method of doing an end-run around the voters. These state legislators are coming up with these programs that redirect money from public schools to private ones - without ever getting voter approval. Why not make it legislation that voters can approve. Maybe that has been done and I'm just not aware of it. But then why do we need a 'voucher'? Let's just have the state fund whatever private schools they want, based on enrollment?

I wonder why they haven't pursued it that way?

 

[JoeyJoystick]

Glad to hear it.


Disagree. Why should tax dollars intend for public education ever go to a private school? You have stated several times that you think it reasonable, but you haven't explained your reasoning.
Why should the taxpayers be expected to ease a burden parents placed on themselves?

Hi BabaVoss,

It's ok we disagree. I think the reason we disagree is that I do not see it as a tax for public schools, I see it as a tax for the education of the children.

Very often parents who send their kids to private schools are wealthy.

I actually think this is probably mostly true, especially back home in the west. My son is in a private school here in Thailand. I do not want him to go to a public school here if I can avoid it. But there is no support of course over here. The school is way better than public schools. Our son is very happy over there. I am under the impression that he learns well. He just turned 6 and can write a little bit in both English and Thai. We had a rough time. This must have had a reflection on him as well. We pay for the school ourselves. These are not the extraordinary amounts we often hear in the west. We pay about 150USD per months including uniform and books. So that is a bargain and a good deal for a school with such a good name. Yet we bring him every morning with our motor bike. And until recently there were days I had to skip food. (never my son!) Trust me when I say, they're not all wealthy.

If they choose to do so they should be able to afford it. Should we be subsidizing the wealthy this way?

They should pay more tax.

Will a public school system reduce their costs because some students and some dollars they used to get have gone to a private entity?
Will they shrink the size of their buildings?
Pay their teachers less?
Will their maintenance and utility bills be lower?
How will they plan for future school years, not knowing what the population that shows up will be?

That is true what you say, but it doesn't work like that. There is an X amount of money for education, and there are Y number of students. Now if you have less students, because they go to private schools, than you are right that the costs of the school remain the same, but there will be less schools to run. If tomorrow all the private schools close, the government will have to build a lot of new schools.

I'd get that you find it reasonable, but I'd like to understand why. I'm not seeing that.

I find it reasonable because it is a tax for the education of children, and your argument of costs does not stand as I explained above. But we're talking opinion here. These are not hard facts we can challenge.

One other disturbing aspect of this trend is that it seems to be a method of doing an end-run around the voters. These state legislators are coming up with these programs that redirect money from public schools to private ones - without ever getting voter approval. Why not make it legislation that voters can approve. Maybe that has been done and I'm just not aware of it. But then why do we need a 'voucher'? Let's just have the state fund whatever private schools they want, based on enrollment?

I wonder why they haven't pursued it that way?

I think it is dumb to politicise education. Trying to make sure you provide the very best education to children you can offer and afford is the best investment you can ever make and gives you the biggest possible return of investment.


Joey

 

[Lycanthrope]

Perfectly fine so long as it receives zero tax monies.

 

[GIJane]

It is bullshit. Have a nice day.

So, to be clear, Mods get to call people liars, but if I do that I get a reprimand. Go figure.

 

[JoeyJoystick]

So, to be clear, Mods get to call people liars, but if I do that I get a reprimand. Go figure.

Hi GIJane,

Apparently not only MODs, but also people who think they achieved 'standing' in the DP community.

Joey,

 

[Safiel]

To answer the OP Title Question:

I homeschooled my own kids, but not as a put down of the public schools, but rather as an avoidance of educational errors that occur both in public and private schools.

On the English side of things, I used the phonics method, at a time when the whole language and whole word methods were the predominant method in public schools. Thankfully, schools are moving back to phonics, but at the time my kids were young, that was not the case. I still have a set of McGuffey Readers (the 1879 Edition, not the Calvinist 1836-1837 original Edition). I used them and more modern phonics based material.

On the math side of things, we used Saxon and later Singapore Math, both based on traditional math. Again, both public schools and many private schools were using the "new" math and other inferior methods. Schools have not gotten back on the straight and narrow in regards to math, unlike in regards to English.

But again. I financed the full cost of homeschooling and never would have considered asking to be placed on the public teat. At the same time, I paid my property taxes (including the portion for public education) and was fine with that.

My biggest objection to public money for private education (and homeschooling) is that people forget that money will not remain "free." Eventually the strings WILL come.

And the very idea of private education or homeschooling is to escape government control.

Government money for private education or homeschooling contradicts the very purpose of those institutions.

Private education and homeschooling are great. Government money to those institutions, not so much.

 

[StillServing]

My view is that education is far more complex than most people consider. For background, after my service in the military I became a teacher in a public early college high school, have a masters in curriculum & instruction (and another in an unrelated field) and a PhD in Geography Education. All of my schooling has been in public schools/universities. Most of my kids went to public schools while a son went to a parochial school and then graduated from an international baccalaureate high school overseas. So I like to think that I have a pretty broad perspective on the issue. Here are my key thoughts:

1. Just like public schools, there are good private schools and there are poor performing private schools. Although the best of both public and private schools are truly exceptional. However both the best of public and private schools tend to be very selective. Private schools due to cost, and the best public schools due to selective criteria that hand pick the best students in a district.

2. I have no problem with voucher programs as in cities such as Washington DC. But let’s put this in perspective. There are about 99,000 public school students in the district. A total of about 1,300 or about 1.3% of k-12 students.

Now, it can be argued that this is far too few or far too many. But for that student who would normally be attending Ballou High School (with <1% of students at grade level in reading and <5% in math) who gets a golden ticket to go to Sidwell Friends, St. Aubans, or Gonzaga (all of which will accept a very small number of voucher students), this truly is life changing. It’s hard for me to be against this.

3. However, the problem with voucher schools isn’t the “drain” on public school funds, but that the model doesn’t scale. There simply isn’t enough private school slots to accommodate all students. And even if you attempted to create more private schools, you eventually run into the same issues and constraints that public schools face.

4. There are programs that some states use that allows students in one district to choose to attend a school in a neighboring district. I too have no problem with this—giving choice to parents/students to attend school that may provide a better education shouldn’t be see. As a bad thing. But just like voucher systems, it doesn’t solve the larger, overall problem.

5. More funding does not equate to better education. Yes there are studies that have been heralded as being evidence as showing statistically significant increases in student achievement with each additional $1000 spent. An often quoted meta-analysis is
Jackson and Mackevicius (2021). But when we look at the effect size we see they are incredibly small (0.035). For reference, Cohen (1988) which is often used as the gold standard for effect size interpretation would classify this as nearly 6 times smaller than what would be considered “negligible”. Even Kraft (2020) who accepts a much smaller interpretation would discount using this as a viable educational intervention.

6. This is not to say that funding doesn’t matter, but scholars such as Hanushek (1989, 2015) among others makes a compelling case that what teachers do and what we spend in matters much more than the total amount spent.

7. And here is where we get to the tough decisions. In many low-SES schools, we have allowed grace to triumph over standards. Too many schools have elected to inflate grades in interest of boosting student morale and graduation rates than hold them to a high standard (Pattison, Grodsky & Muller 2013; CRPE, 2023; Goldhaber, Goodman & Young, 2023; Applerouth, 2023). Raise standards and hold students to these standards and you can bring low-SES,
minority, and first-generation student achievement up.

The above only scratches the surface of the complexities involved. Before we continue accusing Republicans of not caring about education, or declaring to Democrats that vouchers are the panacea; or calling our politicians and saying all we need to do is send more money. We need to step back and understand the issue is far more complicated than the previous posts have alleged.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Remember the accusations by MAGA that schools had litter boxes for children who claimed to be animals?

 

[Revelation]

I would love to ban private school entirely.

i would love to ban Public schools entirely.

seems florida has found a way to start us down that golden path: Vouchers.

if parents want private schools or home school good for them; support them. Vouchers are the way forward. eventually with enuf private schools/home schools we can eliminate the need for Public schools.

i note that half the budget for our state is for Education, we need to slash that and Vouchers are the way forward. a Voucher for half the education would accomplish that.

note what is happening in FL land...

Public Schools Try to Sell Themselves as More Students Use Vouchers​

A decline in the number of children and rise in the number of choices has created a crisis for public schools. Some are trying new strategies to recruit students. https://archive.ph/2rYxa#selection-519.0-523.162

You can't have a true meritocracy if from birth the children of wealthy people receive better instruction than everyone else and poor kids are excluded entirely from their social circle. If rich kids had to attend public school it would give their parents a greater interest in ensuring that those schools are appropriately funded and staffed.

the reason we have private schools is that public schools really can't be improved much, so don't bother. we home schooled my kid because of that.

But I know it's a pipe dream, especially with this SCOTUS. And probably impractical. Rich people will always find ways to rig the system, whether it be moving to insular suburbs where they can have their own "public" schools, or paying for outside private tutors and test prep.

Rich people are rich because they don't listen to your poor failed solutions. if public schools were so great then the Rich and middle class would flock to them.

we know better from experience.


blessings. 1 day left.

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[americanwoman]

Hi All,


I am wondering how you guys feel about private education. I saw the below article on BBS and it made me wonder. And it made me wonder about private education in general. Not the fee increases discussed in the article.

Delhi: Rising school fees push Indian families to the brink

Parents accuse private schools of steep fee raises which are stretching budgets to breaking point.

www.bbc.com

I am a Dutch citizen living in Thailand, and we have 3 children of which one I am the father.

In The Netherlands, private education is considered for rich people only and few people in The Netherlands are able to afford private education. When I got older I started to look at things a little bit differently. The strange thing is, here in Thailand, it seems to be normal for kids to go to private schools, and this is a developing country! Something does not make sense, right? I struggled with this.

I first got confronted with education in Vietnam where a young boy I knew was in a public school and got hit by the teacher. I was shocked and I was so mad that I asked the police to come to my house and explain to me if this is acceptable or not and if anything can be done about this. This already shows that you are in a different culture, because you do not just call the police to your house in a normal country I think, but this is what happened. What can I say...

I now know that it is still common practice for teachers to correct kids in the class; with a ruler.... In Vietnam I was told that this was not legal, but that the kid would suffer in school if I resisted to the teachers doing this. This was in a public school.


I struggle to form an opinion. Just genuinely looking forward to ideas, thoughts, and considerations.

Joey

My experience has been with Catholic private schools and I have nothing bad to say about any of them. Great education and I like that they are more focused and stricter than public schools. I am in the minority but I also like school uniforms, which are typically required at private schools. Back in my day, late 80's-early 90's they did correct kids with a ruler to the hands but no way these days is it common practice here these days.

 

[ttwtt78640]

i would love to ban Public schools entirely.

seems florida has found a way to start us down that golden path: Vouchers.

if parents want private schools or home school good for them; support them. Vouchers are the way forward. eventually with enuf private schools/home schools we can eliminate the need for Public schools.

i note that half the budget for our state is for Education, we need to slash that and Vouchers are the way forward. a Voucher for half the education would accomplish that.

note what is happening in FL land...

Public Schools Try to Sell Themselves as More Students Use Vouchers​

A decline in the number of children and rise in the number of choices has created a crisis for public schools. Some are trying new strategies to recruit students. https://archive.ph/2rYxa#selection-519.0-523.162




the reason we have private schools is that public schools really can't be improved much, so don't bother. we home schooled my kid because of that.






Rich people are rich because they don't listen to your poor failed solutions. if public schools were so great then the Rich and middle class would flock to them.

we know better from experience.


blessings. 1 day left.

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A voucher for half the cost of attending a private school would be worthless for those (parents) unable to come up with the other half.

 

[Revelation]

A voucher for half the cost of attending a private school would be worthless for those (parents) unable to come up with the other half.

probably, but it would cut public schools down to size and possibly improve all that is left.

religious schools may even cough up the difference for those low income families. in our county, churches support the Christian schools in the area. we also have a Used store that sells donated items to support the Christian schools in our area.

this is win win, our state is relieved from supporting public education and we get Christians schools with better kids staying out of the prisons et al.

win win win.

even an Atheist can see the logic in all of this.


blessings. 1 more day.

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[ttwtt78640]

probably, but it would cut public schools down to size and possibly improve all that is left.

religious schools may even cough up the difference for those low income families. in our county, churches support the Christian schools in the area. we also have a Used store that sells donated items to support the Christian schools in our area.

this is win win, our state is relieved from supporting public education and we get Christians schools with better kids staying out of the prisons et al.

win win win.

even an Atheist can see the logic in all of this.


blessings. 1 more day.

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One can’t count on what (some) private schools “may even” do.

 

[Cameron]

i would love to ban Public schools entirely.

seems florida has found a way to start us down that golden path: Vouchers.

if parents want private schools or home school good for them; support them. Vouchers are the way forward. eventually with enuf private schools/home schools we can eliminate the need for Public schools.

i note that half the budget for our state is for Education, we need to slash that and Vouchers are the way forward. a Voucher for half the education would accomplish that.

note what is happening in FL land...

Public Schools Try to Sell Themselves as More Students Use Vouchers​

A decline in the number of children and rise in the number of choices has created a crisis for public schools. Some are trying new strategies to recruit students. https://archive.ph/2rYxa#selection-519.0-523.162




the reason we have private schools is that public schools really can't be improved much, so don't bother. we home schooled my kid because of that.






Rich people are rich because they don't listen to your poor failed solutions. if public schools were so great then the Rich and middle class would flock to them.

we know better from experience.


blessings. 1 day left.

.

Thanks but nothing in this post remotely changes my mind. Banning public school is a great idea if your goal is to have a country populated overwhelmingly by morons, not so much otherwise.

 

[Bum]

My wife and I sent both of our kids to a STEM academy out of pocket.....the public school system was failing them, and we wanted the kids to get an actual education.

 

[Revelation]

Thanks but nothing in this post remotely changes my mind. Banning public school is a great idea if your goal is to have a country populated overwhelmingly by morons, not so much otherwise.

public skools can do better, a lot better.

Vouchers will introduce competition, which will force public schools to reinvent themselves to compete. a monopoly in Education destroys the public school system.

my idea helps you Cameron, think deeper and understand the real problems.

my friend went to public school in the city, she could not pass the state tests and most of the class could not either, so the teacher would correct the tests herself and pass everybody. she graduated high school with an under Grade 2 reading level.

basically her public schools were turning out morons, maybe you might wanna reconsider?


blessings, 1 day to go.

.

 

[Allan]

No vouchers. Republicans use those to destroy public education. If the rich want to send their kids to exclusive schools, they're gonna do that anyway, and they can pay for it themselves.

Private schools exist in Canada but aren't that numerous. I'm familiar with a few due to work.

They're very expensive.

The education they deliver is top notch though. Small class sizes, PhD or Master's instructors and beautiful campuses, dorms and food.

If you can afford the fee (+$60k or so per term) they're worth it.

 

[Safiel]

I see another dark side to the hostility to public education.

Thomas Heyward Academy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is a private school in Ridgeland, South Carolina, not far from where I am building a vacation house.

Thomas Heyward Academy was founded as a segregation academy. And while it is no longer a de jure segregation academy, in practice it is a de facto segregation academy.

They enroll just enough minority students (around 9 currently, out of a student body of over 300) to keep out of civil rights trouble.

Jasper County has a 43% black population and its student population is majority black, due to the fact that most white residents are retirees, not families.

Resegregation has been openly pushed, even WITHIN the public school system, through white enclaves seceding from black plurality or black majority districts.

If they are going to defund public school systems, then they need to step up the policing on private schools, to ensure they are not acting as de facto segregation academies.

 

[aociswundumho]

Republicans are now the party of education, while democrats are the party of teacher's unions and sky-high property taxes. Republicans are giving parents choice and innovation regarding their kid's education, while democrats have only one goal: funnel as many taxpayer dollars to the unions as possible, while keeping the same failing system in place just as it is.

 

[Allan]

Republicans are now the party of education, while democrats are the party of teacher's unions and sky-high property taxes. Republicans are giving parents choice and innovation regarding their kid's education, while democrats have only one goal: funnel as many taxpayer dollars to the unions as possible, while keeping the same failing system in place just as it is.

The five most educated countries in the world...

1. Canada
2. Ireland
3. Singapore
4. Denmark
5. Norway

All unionized teachers.

Try again.

 

[aociswundumho]

The five most educated countries in the world...

1. Canada
2. Ireland
3. Singapore
4. Denmark
5. Norway

All unionized teachers.

Try again.

In all of those countries, bad teachers get fired, and unions don't dictate policy. In the US, teacher's unions are political machines.

 

[Allan]

In all of those countries, bad teachers get fired, and unions don't dictate policy. In the US, teacher's unions are political machines.

Now that's just crazy talk.

Ontario has 163k unionized teachers. You don't think they have political clout?

 

[Fearandloathing]

My son did private preK and it was awful. His disability was much more prevalent then and they were not prepared to accommodate him.

Did public preK until Covid.

During Covid years (2020-2021 school year) we homeschooled and engaged a private tutor.

After Covid, he’s been in a private school for K-3 and the tuition is around 20K annually. It’s a pretty exclusive school.

He’s flourishing there.

The local public elementary school system is very highly rated - many of our friends kids go there. I’m also personal friends with about 1/2 the school board. I just don’t want to deal with the drama of the Klanned Karenhood and politics of public school and worrying about my kid’s school and funding, politics, etc

For high school, my son will likely go to public. He - in fact - wants to go to the public tech school because they have an engineering program and currently, he wants to be an engineer.

The quality of education - be it public or
private - depends on how actively involved parents are in their children’s education. And being involved doesn’t mean just bitching and complaining about school rules, etc. it means hands on involvement and attention to what they are learning and assisting them.

My son struggles with reading - so all summer, he attends private reading tutoring to help catch him up.

Comic books.

I was rated "slow" into grade five because I couldn't read and thus couldn't write. (We knew nothing about ADD then).

So I gravitated to comics, Batman, Superman (wimp) and others. Then I sent away for a package of games, one of which turned out to be a word game where you accumulate points as you correctly identify each word starting with baby talk and going up to grade 12 level.

But it was wanting to know how the Bat Man was going to save Gotham.....!!!! Yeah, every week and the big 25 cent edition month's end!

And of course, my Catholic school punished kids who read comic books, the "devil's work" and all that.

Oh that and Archie. I as in love with Veronica until I found out she was drawn identically as Betty just with dark hair.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Private schools are just fine and dandy if people can afford it.
THIS is what I refuse to support....

 

[bomberfox]

Continuing the legacy of segregating society by class. Its important for students to go to school with a wide variety of kids.

I mean its as if segregating based on property values wasnt a ****ing social disaster to begin with…