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How can love be wrong? [W:713]

phattonez said:
Knowing the future doesn't mean you're not free to make your own choices.
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I was talking about your god. If we have free will then he cannot know the future. Believers here have told me that he does know the future.
 
Does this god have to change his plan millions and millions of times every day because we act on our free will? Come to think of it no believer has ever told me what this plan actually is.
 
marke said:
Homosexuality is not bad because God says it is. On the contrary, God says homosexuality is bad because it is bad. What does homosexuality give people? AIDS, sex abuse, sexual promiscuity, sexual perversion, sexual immorality, broken homes, damaged minds, child abuse, broken lives, narcissism, rebellion against God and good, and so forth.
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using that logic heterosexuality is bad because it is responsible for 100% of unwanted pregnancy without exception.

Unwanted and unloved children are far more detrimental to society than illness.

Also world wide aids and hiv are more as issue with heterosexuals. If God's domain is strictly restricted to first world nations, you have a point. If not you don't.
 
phattonez said:
Knowing the future doesn't mean you're not free to make your own choices.
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how do i go about making a choice that's different from the one you know i will?
 
blarg said:
how do i go about making a choice that's different from the one you know i will?
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Simplified explanation. I put you in a room with two cameras watching you. You are told to choose one of two cards, red or yellow. You make your choice. I observe this choice on camera one. I then jump into a time machine and go back and access camera 2 to watch you. Is your choice suddenly no longer a choice because I am observing for a second time?

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
 
maquiscat said:
Simplified explanation. I put you in a room with two cameras watching you. You are told to choose one of two cards, red or yellow. You make your choice. I observe this choice on camera one. I then jump into a time machine and go back and access camera 2 to watch you. Is your choice suddenly no longer a choice because I am observing for a second time?

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
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yes its no longer a choice it never was a choice apparently iv been doing the same exact thing eternally and you can just rewind and fast forward to it
 
phattonez said:
Knowing the future doesn't mean you're not free to make your own choices.
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From a rational, logical point of view, that is a false statement. If the futrure is known, you don't have any choice to but to 'choose' what is already known to happen, The free will/determination school known as 'compatabilism' is not rational
 
RAMOSS said:
From a rational, logical point of view, that is a false statement. If the futrure is known, you don't have any choice to but to 'choose' what is already known to happen, The free will/determination school known as 'compatabilism' is not rational
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And what part of a choice being known means you weren't free to make that choice?

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.
 
phattonez said:
And what part of a choice being known means you weren't free to make that choice?

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.
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Because, if what you are are allegedly supposed to choose before you are even presented with the alleged choice is known, you do not have the ability to choose other than what is known that you choose. Since you do not have the ability to choose something other than what is already known you will choose, then there is actually no choice, only the illusion of choice.
 
RAMOSS said:
Because, if what you are are allegedly supposed to choose before you are even presented with the alleged choice is known, you do not have the ability to choose other than what is known that you choose. Since you do not have the ability to choose something other than what is already known you will choose, then there is actually no choice, only the illusion of choice.
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Nonsense. Someone knowing what choice I'm going to make in no way impedes my freedom in making that choice.

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.
 
phattonez said:
And what part of a choice being known means you weren't free to make that choice?

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.
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the known part that means you cant actually do anything else
 
blarg said:
yes its no longer a choice it never was a choice apparently iv been doing the same exact thing eternally and you can just rewind and fast forward to it
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I disagree. Your choice only remains the same because I did nothing to change the conditions under which you made the choice. Even by just walking into the room, something I hadn't done in the previous iteration, could cause you to make a different choice. My knowledge then became wrong. You may still have made the same choice, or.you might not have, but the choice was still yours to make.

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
 
RAMOSS said:
From a rational, logical point of view, that is a false statement. If the futrure is known, you don't have any choice to but to 'choose' what is already known to happen, The free will/determination school known as 'compatabilism' is not rational
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This assumes a concrete future. A future might be know and if conditions are not changed then the forseen one becomes true. Even having knowledge that was not previously known might change the future, despite no action. Butterfly Effect.

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
 
maquiscat said:
I disagree. Your choice only remains the same because I did nothing to change the conditions under which you made the choice. Even by just walking into the room, something I hadn't done in the previous iteration, could cause you to make a different choice. My knowledge then became wrong. You may still have made the same choice, or.you might not have, but the choice was still yours to make.

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
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then you don't know what i will do
 
TurtleDude said:
well if God exists and is powerful as you all claim he is-then the answer is YES. If he isn't that powerful than why worship impotence?
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Exactly. The god of the Christians is omniscient. He knows exactly who will become a murderer and who will not, yet creates him or her anyway.

Matthew 10:28-30
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father.
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phattonez said:
Nonsense. Someone knowing what choice I'm going to make in no way impedes my freedom in making that choice.

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.
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The fact they know it makes sure you can not choose anything but what you are going to choose. And, of course, if that entity is ALSO the creator, they directly programmed you to respond in that manner. Let's face it, you are programed for sin.
 
RAMOSS said:
The fact they know it makes sure you can not choose anything but what you are going to choose. And, of course, if that entity is ALSO the creator, they directly programmed you to respond in that manner. Let's face it, you are programed for sin.
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The freedom to make a choice that you wouldn't have made is illogical.

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.
 
phattonez said:
The freedom to make a choice that you wouldn't have made is illogical.

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.
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Well, you don't agree with it, that but it is logical if you make the assumption of absolutely perfect foreknowledge.
 
RAMOSS said:
Well, you don't agree with it, that but it is logical if you make the assumption of absolutely perfect foreknowledge.
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That is called "putting limits on God"...He is capable of seeing into the future or not...He can also be selective on what He chooses to see or not see...God has no limits...
 
Elvira said:
That is called "putting limits on God"...He is capable of seeing into the future or not...He can also be selective on what He chooses to see or not see...God has no limits...
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Can God make a rock so big he can not move it?
 
Elvira said:
Such silly question...:roll:
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SO, in other words, God can not do things that are inherently contradictory. Perfect foreknowledge and free will are inherently mutually exclusive.
 
RAMOSS said:
SO, in other words, God can not do things that are inherently contradictory. Perfect foreknowledge and free will are inherently mutually exclusive.
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Again, you are setting limits on God...sorry your has limits...mine does not...

"Our God is in the heavens;
He does whatever he pleases." Psalm 115:3
 
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