Hospitals Stand to Lose Billions Under ‘Medicare for All’

[BWG]

The cost of med school and malpractice insurance completely justifies what doctors are paid. If you plan to pay doctors less than we need to do away with medical malpractice lawsuits and drastically slash the cost of med school. Otherwise we’ll have a severe doctor shortage very quickly.



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So consumers should have no recourse to shoddy medical practice?

Texas passed medical insurance reforms a few years ago that included diluting medical malpractice suits, that they (lawmakers) said would decrease medical insurance premiums.


Physicians medical malpractice insurance premiums decreased and that's where the savings stopped, none were passed on to the consumer. (the 'ol con trickle down theory failed again)

 

[Lovebug]

Looks like this time around we're getting to the level of seriousness where trade-offs and winners-and-losers will get explored. Which is good! But it underscore the risks that primary candidates run in hitching their wagons to a very speculative idea without fully exploring those trade-offs.

Hospitals Stand to Lose Billions Under ‘Medicare for All’



The Stuart Altman quote is the crux of it:



This would be uncharted territory.

I don't know, Medicare for all (implying lower payment) vs Hospitals absorbing costs of care for uninsured.

 

[ThoughtEx.]

That's not the alternative to saying we're going to suck double digit percentages out of every provider organization's budget.



Cost of care isn't an absolute. Factors like local wage pressures play a substantial role in it.



That's certainly the theory, but again this is uncharted territory if we were to try this on the scale some have imagined. Cutting is very hard and we're past the point where we can hand wave past what that looks like in practice. Grappling with that is to treat this idea with the seriousness it deserves--which is actually a good sign for the maturity of the MFA concept, though I imagine it will make some defensive.

ya, you either work for a hospital, or are just talking out of your ass.

They all use something called the chargemaster system. It hyper inflates prices based on nothing, nothing at all. And it starts at 500 percent inflation.

Hospitals rake in more profits than big oil, while operating under a non profit tax schedule.

We could drive every hospital out of business, do a sell off of their assets, and then make a deal with whoever steps into supply the healthcare based on demand. And come off way better than having medicare pay the 500-1000 percent inflation.

Basically read my avatar. sure, let's do it the dumbest way possible, because it's more convenient for you... /s

Bitter Pill: Why Medical Bills Are Killing Us - TIME

here's some reading on the subject for anyone that's interested.

 

[ThoughtEx.]

That's a lot of BS. I have at least two pre-existing chronic conditions and have I posted on health boards with countless people all over the world. I will admit that they all love their single payer healthcare but that is because of two things:

1. All they mostly hear of the US is liberal BS like the horror stories that make the news and think that only the rich get good care in the US and everyone else dies in the streets or goes bankrupt

2. It is basically free to them so they think free is better than paying

Fact is, with everything they describe that happens with them I wouldn't want with a ten foot pole. Even when I was poor I received far better care than what I hear them describe. Everything I wrote in my first post in this thread is true.

"Exactly. Medicare for all relies heavily on screwing providers. I have pre-existing conditions and have talked to many others in single payer countries. They wait excessively for appointments, wait excessively while at the appointment, see nurses instead of doctors, when having issues are told to go to the emergency room because there are no appointments for months, have to travel to metropolitan areas for providers because there aren't any in rural areas, and can't receive the latest expensive medicines. The only reason why they like their health care systems is because they are basically free so they have financial peace of mind. The cold hard fact is that millions in the US are better off with our current system of employer based health insurance than they would be if we went to medicare for all. What we need to concentrate on is the people who don't have employer based insurance, which is less than 20% of Americans.


None of this even takes into account the economic devastation from basically eliminating an entire industry."

I'm a US citizen, that lives in Canada. You are not correct.

Most of my life I was stuck going to emergency for everything. The exacts same emergency room experience you get in Canada. Now, that I have healthcare. I don't even have to schedule an appointment with my doctor most days. I just walk in, sign a sheet, and wait a bit.

Wife had cervical cancer, treated it. No horror shows.

You wan't nationalized healthcare to be a nightmare, because it's the only way to fit your narrative. It's cheaper than our currents system. More fair than our current system. And saves lives.

My mother would be alive today under the Canadian healthcare system. She died waiting on a procedure that would save her life. Cervical Cancer, same as my wife. Why? Because they opened her up, didn't finish, and needed to go back in but she could only afford the one operation. Not the second one. They sent her home, without closing her up.

The only nightmare system is the US system.

At some point, you need to face the facts. US isn't the greatest country in the world, it's not the best healthcare. It's not even close to the best healthcare.

 

[Moderate Right]

I'm a US citizen, that lives in Canada. You are not correct.

Most of my life I was stuck going to emergency for everything. The exacts same emergency room experience you get in Canada. Now, that I have healthcare. I don't even have to schedule an appointment with my doctor most days. I just walk in, sign a sheet, and wait a bit.

Wife had cervical cancer, treated it. No horror shows.

You wan't nationalized healthcare to be a nightmare, because it's the only way to fit your narrative. It's cheaper than our currents system. More fair than our current system. And saves lives.

My mother would be alive today under the Canadian healthcare system. She died waiting on a procedure that would save her life. Cervical Cancer, same as my wife. Why? Because they opened her up, didn't finish, and needed to go back in but she could only afford the one operation. Not the second one. They sent her home, without closing her up.

The only nightmare system is the US system.

At some point, you need to face the facts. US isn't the greatest country in the world, it's not the best healthcare. It's not even close to the best healthcare.

Every Canadian province is different. Sounds like you are a lot luckier than most of your fellow Canadians. Some provinces have it better than others. You probably live in a city, which makes it easier. As the OP noted, rural areas lack providers. Prescriptions are also not covered.

The serious flaw in Canada's healthcare system: prescription drugs aren't free | World news | The Guardian

 

[ThoughtEx.]

Every Canadian province is different. Sounds like you are a lot luckier than most of your fellow Canadians.

Learn to ****ing read, I'm a US citizen.

And that isn't a rebuttal, because you got nothing. All you got is ignorant generalities you heard from right wing pundits, and because you've never been anywhere or done anything you don't know any better. The only people you will ever convince is people who also took the remedial classes in school.

 

[Napoleon]

Most universal healthcare systems actually don't nationalize healthcare providers, and most still have a lot or even mostly private healthcare providers. Some of them do have price regulation on private companies like we have on utilities, but others simply have government-run healthcare like we do for government-run fire fighting services, or others have a government monopoly on the customer base and can use that to negotiate lower prices. In addition, other developed countries pay about the same or less for public universal healthcare than we do for our public Medicare and Medicaid so the end result doesn't require a big tax hike. Japan and Germany are both very big countries in terms of population and manage universal healthcare just fine. We can always have healthcare providing done on the state level to scale our system better.

I think the only country with universal healthcare and a direct healthcare tax rate comparable to the US Medicare and Medicaid tax is the UK. But that is also supplemented with general tax revenue and its really not a system anyone should emulate. NHS is drowning in debt and slowly closing facilities and privatizing services precisely because they don’t want to raise tax rates to the required levels. It’s more or less collapsing under the weight of its own costs. I am curious which nation you would emulate though.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

People receiving basic health care?

That's un-American!!!

It won't happen as long as the 2 parties that run this country are owned by the rich and powerful. Our candidates our their puppets giving the ignorant people of this country the illusion of choice between their man R or D.

Look at Obamacare. it just cost the hard working taxpayer more money while do nothing to eliminate the insurance co. or regulating any of the other industries which only make health care more expensive. Now look at the great fix by the republicans when they were in charge. Need I say more on that fiasco. The only solution to our health care is to get all the greedy billionaires and their henchmen out of the industry and use that money to easily give every American the best health care in the world. The question is will the people take back their government and make it happen or will we continue to let the 2 parties owned by the rich and powerful continue to use our government to line their rich masters pockets with our hard earned money.

 

[prometeus]

Exactly. Medicare for all relies heavily on screwing providers.

Why is it then that those providers still take those patients?

They wait excessively for appointments...

Yet by any possible metric they are better off. Go figure.

 

[Moderate Right]

Learn to ****ing read, I'm a US citizen.

And that isn't a rebuttal, because you got nothing. All you got is ignorant generalities you heard from right wing pundits, and because you've never been anywhere or done anything you don't know any better. The only people you will ever convince is people who also took the remedial classes in school.

I didn't hear anything from right wing pundits. You are apparently a left wing pundit. I have talked to thousands of people across the world, including Canada and they describe healthcare scenarios to me that I personally find unacceptable compared to what I have always had in the US, even when I was poor. How convenient that you didn't quote the link I provided from a left wing pundit showing the Canadian healthcare doesn't cover medications.

 

[Moderate Right]

Why is it then that those providers still take those patients?

Yet by any possible metric they are better off. Go figure.

Many of the providers DON'T take Medicare and Medicaid anymore and it gets worse every day.

 

[prometeus]

Many of the providers DON'T take Medicare and Medicaid anymore and it gets worse every day.

What are the numbers?

 

[Moderate Right]

What are the numbers?

What? There are literally tens of thousands of doctors who refuse to take Medicare and Medicaid patients. I have heard several of my doctor's offices over the years say they aren't accepting patients with those.

 

[Lovebug]

Some thoughts on the topic from different angles.

The Appeal Of Canadian Health Care For American Doctors : Shots - Health News : NPR

Let Me Break Down How Much Ontario Doctors Really Get Paid | HuffPost Canada

Income of medical doctors in Germany

 

[JustHanging]

Every Canadian province is different. Sounds like you are a lot luckier than most of your fellow Canadians. Some provinces have it better than others. You probably live in a city, which makes it easier. As the OP noted, rural areas lack providers. Prescriptions are also not covered.

The serious flaw in Canada's healthcare system: prescription drugs aren't free | World news | The Guardian

That's the best you can do? An article pointing out that drugs aren't free? Are drugs free in the USA?

Doesn't matter what province you live in, you're lucky to be a Canadian, and have access to our healthcare model, instead of the American model.

That's why the vast majority of Canadians love our healthcare system, and would never want to switch to an American model.


We had a vote a while back: Who was the greatest Canadian of all time?

We didn't choose Wayne Gretzky, or any hockey player. We didn't choose Terry Fox, my personal hero. Nope, we chose Tommy Douglas, the man who brought universal healthcare to Canada. That's what Canadians think of our healthcare system.

 

[JustHanging]

What? There are literally tens of thousands of doctors who refuse to take Medicare and Medicaid patients. I have heard several of my doctor's offices over the years say they aren't accepting patients with those.

I'm not surprised. Trump accurately reflects the morals and principles of a good chunk of America, doesn't he.

 

[JustHanging]

Some thoughts on the topic from different angles.

The Appeal Of Canadian Health Care For American Doctors : Shots - Health News : NPR

That's a pretty good article, and relatively accurate I believe. Our system isn't perfect, I certainly would never claim it is, but it's a damn sight better than the American model. It costs just over 1/2 as much, and delivers better outcomes. Hard to argue with that.

Some of it is biased imo:

And there's the concern that Canadians wait longer for health care than would Americans with robust health coverage.

Canadians could pay more in taxes, and have shorter wait times, but as a country we've decided to spend what we spend. They don't point out that in The States, some people can't afford treatment, and die. Suddenly a bit of a wait time doesn't seem to bad.

Let Me Break Down How Much Ontario Doctors Really Get Paid | HuffPost Canada

Income of medical doctors in Germany

tldr; How much should doctors get paid? Like a business? Optimizing profit by excluding the say poorest 20% of Americans from receiving healthcare by pricing it beyond their means?

 

[Lovebug]

That's a pretty good article, and relatively accurate I believe. Our system isn't perfect, I certainly would never claim it is, but it's a damn sight better than the American model.



tldr; How much should doctors get paid? Like a business? Optimizing profit by excluding the say poorest 20% of Americans from receiving healthcare by pricing it beyond their means?

I hear that Canadian docs actually protested for lesser pay because nurses didn't get a proportional pay raise. I like that.
Years ago, I only went to an old country doc. Little overhead, just one nurse alongside him. The guy knew what he was doing, never misdiagnosed nor missed to diagnose, as far as I know ( it would have been news quickly).
Office visit $20. That was about 15 years ago.

 

[joko104]

I was a starving student in Minneapolis in 1978, making minimum wage and going to school. My rent on a tiny bachelor pad was $110 a month but I was making about $350 a month maybe. That was enough for me to get by. Moonlighting a second job at night added another 150 bucks a month and suddenly I was doing well.
I didn't eat steak and lobster, a lot of hot dogs, ramen and Kraft mac and cheese but I ate.
I had an old jalopy but I could afford to put a couple of gallons of gas in it and get back and forth to school and work.

My 110 dollar a month bachelor pad was a 120 sf sardine can but it kept me safe and warm, even laid from time to time although that has nothing to do with the issue....I just thought I would throw that in there.

But the point is, it was doable then, so it could be doable now. Maybe the numbers won't match but then again the AMOUNTS can. A week or ten days wages pays the rent, another week for food, clothing and utilities, another week for other expenses and a week set aside in savings. Health care was the clinic down the street, free if you were poor and sliding scale if you weren't.

In a year and a half I was able to exercise my upward mobility and LEAVE the sardine can for better digs.
It's THE DESPAIR QUOTIENT, folks.
Fix the DESPAIR QUOTIENT and a lot of other problems slowly begin to heal themselves over time.

Despair is poison, and this country is overflowing with despair because forty percent of WORKING Americans don't have enough to cover a four hundred dollar emergency. Note I said WORKING Americans.

Would you have gone to your $350 a month job if the government was giving you $300 only if you didn't have a job? If so, why? Welfare enables laziness (and criminal behavior for all the free time), plus corrupts democracy as then it allows politicians (mostly Democrat politicians) to bribe people with free money the government then will steal from working people. The more people living off the government and the more people who will vote for the Democrat's fascism-socialism.

I can not even count how many people bitterly complain they are broke - but somehow have no problem signing to finance a new $1000 iphone each year and all sorts of other electronic toys. The reason most people don't have $400 is because they are compulsive spenders whose rule on spending is to spend whatever they have in their pocket, whether they NEED it or not.

 

[JustHanging]

I hear that Canadian docs actually protested for lesser pay because nurses didn't get a proportional pay raise. I like that.
Years ago, I only went to an old country doc. Little overhead, just one nurse alongside him. The guy knew what he was doing, never misdiagnosed nor missed to diagnose, as far as I know ( it would have been news quickly).
Office visit $20. That was about 15 years ago.

That is awesome. I know here in Canada there is a shortage of doctors in rural communities, which is not a good thing. Hopefully the government can correct that. I know they're working on it.

My family doctor retired a few years back. But I can still book an appointment the same day if it's for something that needs immediate attention, which I like. I'm getting on in years, and am starting to use our medical system more and more, and have really come to appreciate it.

This is just my experience, nothing statistically significant or anything like that, but I've had a few operations over the last few years, and everything has happened in a timely fashion imo. The nice thing is you go in and everything is arranged and booked for you. Your entire responsibility is to follow the medical instructions you're given, and to show up on time for your appointments. It's completely stress free, which is so nice when you're worried and feeling like a giant dung heap.

 

[What if...?]

Hate to see hospitals' obscene profits diminish.

Hey! Those are some really good $20 aspirin tablets!

I've heard too many times that costs are as high as they are in part because they have to treat the uninsured for free.

Eliminate that factor and they can allocate those cost savings elsewhere.

 

[JustHanging]

Would you have gone to your $350 a month job if the government was giving you $300 only if you didn't have a job? If so, why? Welfare enables laziness (and criminal behavior for all the free time), plus corrupts democracy as then it allows politicians (mostly Democrat politicians) to bribe people with free money the government then will steal from working people. The more people living off the government and the more people who will vote for the Democrat's fascism-socialism.

I can not even count how many people bitterly complain they are broke - but somehow have no problem signing to finance a new $1000 iphone each year and all sorts of other electronic toys. The reason most people don't have $400 is because they are compulsive spenders whose rule on spending is to spend whatever they have in their pocket, whether they NEED it or not.

Wow, you sound like you're right in line with Reagan's "Young bucks and welfare queens" comment.

 

[JustHanging]

Hey! Those are some really good $20 aspirin tablets!

I've heard too many times that costs are as high as they are in part because they have to treat the uninsured for free.

Eliminate that factor and they can allocate those cost savings elsewhere.

Don't treat the uninsured? Just let them die?

 

[What if...?]

Many hospitals are barely profitable.

Too much going to health insurance executives and stockholders?

 

[What if...?]

Don't treat the uninsured? Just let them die?

There wouldn't be any uninsured anymore, now would there?