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Health Insurance vs Medicare for All

That's now how it would work. Medicare for all merely replaces health care dollars already being spent ( it is not an added on cost, therefore ), and redirects it into a more efficient non-insurance based system which will reduce the overall cost of health care for everyone by eliminating an unnecessary industry ( they will have to find more productive work ). It is precisely this fact that in the 50 or so western developed countries that have some version of UHC that the per capita costs of health care in those countries is roughly half of what it is in the United States.


That being said, I don't think America would vote for it, yet, so I'm for a public option, and let those who want private insurance keep it. Just expand medicare for everyone else. But, this scenario would, indeed, cost society more than medicare for all would. If we had a strong candidate who could make the case, I'd support medicare for all. Perhaps Harris is that person.

No one is saying that it will not cost, it wil be supported with taxes and remove existing health premiums, at a NET SAVINGS to individuals.

This will NOT put private clinics out of work, they will still be private, it's just that medicare is paying the tab, it's called "single payer". Doctors will have to compete on service, not price. ( but they do, anyway, because most people have plans ).

Of course, doctors, many, will resist because medicare dictates what they recieve. I think a fair and equitable solution to costs should be hashed out, to the satisfaction of everyone, in order for it to work.

Perhaps the public option idea is better, at this juncture.

Those socialist democrats who think Bolshevik government healthcare would be the best should watch Dr. Zhivago and try to learn something from it.
 
Right and they have been footing the bill for healthcare en masse since the 60's only back then it was union based good wages, good health benefits, then unions were destroyed and most foot their own bill, even self insuring.
[b}I'm saying you've been paying for something, its gonna change[/b] ...that doesn't mean you get a free ride, you still have to pay something into the system as you were already doing.
The line item name changes on the budget sheet. What is wrong with that?

You seem to be concentrating very hard on keeping things the same while pretending to advocate for change. I suppose you are going to want to keep some distinction between 'large' (over 49 employees?) and 'small' employers like the beloved PPACA did. Are you going to have different premium levels for employee only, employee and spouse or employee and entire family too? This is why I don't like to discuss M4A without referring to an actual bill - if everyone has their own idea of what M4A is then it's just an exercise in time wasting.
 
You reverse my numbers then tell me I don't know business.
Your right I don't know your business.

Businesses only pass on savings when they have too.
if something now costs me 10 bucks to make instead of 20. i am not lowering the price of my item 10 bucks
if people are still paying 30 for it.

the only reason i would lower the price is if i am forced to lower the price.
 
I guess you reversed my numbers...it would cost them less, so our product prices would go down. Win win for everyone....right?
I mean if all costs are passed on to consumers then all savings should be too....right?

That is debatable. In theory, that would be the case but few are willing to operate a business as close to the point of going broke as possible. For example, If I get a new tool (say a more efficient riding lawn mower) which allows me to mow a yard in less time then I am not going to pass that (time) savings to the customer. If that new tool breaks down then I must still get the job done and it was my investment up front which made my productivity increase.
 
You seem to be concentrating very hard on keeping things the same while pretending to advocate for change. I suppose you are going to want to keep some distinction between 'large' (over 49 employees?) and 'small' employers like the beloved PPACA did. Are you going to have different premium levels for employee only, employee and spouse or employee and entire family too? This is why I don't like to discuss M4A without referring to an actual bill - if everyone has their own idea of what M4A is then it's just an exercise in time wasting.

I'm not advocating for anything to stay the same. I'm saying the funds for such a program would be spread across more than just the individual tax payer. If corporations are currently paying for 49% of the insured population instead pay into a new public option or Medicare for all system and not offer private insurance their budget line item name changes but their overall expense doesn't.
Tell me what is wrong with walmart paying something to insure all their employees?
 
That is debatable. In theory, that would be the case but few are willing to operate a business as close to the point of going broke as possible. For example, If I get a new tool (say a more efficient riding lawn mower) which allows me to mow a yard in less time then I am not going to pass that (time) savings to the customer. If that new tool breaks down then I must still get the job done and it was my investment up front which made my productivity increase.

I was being a little sarcastic in my comment. In every business their are costs that can be passed on to consumer and their are some that can't because the market will not sustain the increase.
 
I'm not advocating for anything to stay the same. I'm saying the funds for such a program would be spread across more than just the individual tax payer. If corporations are currently paying for 49% of the insured population instead pay into a new public option or Medicare for all system and not offer private insurance their budget line item name changes but their overall expense doesn't.
Tell me what is wrong with walmart paying something to insure all their employees?

If nothing is wrong with employer subsidized insurance (what most now have) then why seek to get rid of it?
 
I was being a little sarcastic in my comment. In every business their are costs that can be passed on to consumer and their are some that can't because the market will not sustain the increase.

The same is obviously true with taxation or we would have long ago stopped federal deficit spending.
 
On the other hand, if you are a healthy individual, you could choose to buy a catastrophic insurance plan, have extremely reduced premiums and deductibles. You could pay for over the counter meds to take care of the sniffles and the insurance would take care of that broken leg you got skateboarding.

But under medicare for all, you would be slapped upside the head with higher taxes and get nothing out of it except the urge to run to the doctor every time you sneeze (just in case you get the sniffles, you know).

Higher taxes will never be as much as buying health insurance and co-pays and deductibles....
 
Higher taxes will never be as much as buying health insurance and co-pays and deductibles....

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Oh, wait...what's my point, you ask? It's about choice.
 
If nothing is wrong with employer subsidized insurance (what most now have) then why seek to get rid of it?

There is something wrong when you have to work for a company in order to get insured. How many people our there if they knew they would have insurance for them and their families would tell a company kick rocks I'm going over here where there are better working conditions, better pay etc.
There would be no more wife working for insurance because she's 3 years younger than husband and cant get medicare.
Companies would have to find new ways to attract desirable workers the package may even include pensions (remember those) since health insurance as a benefit is taken off the table.
 
A license to practice medicine should not be an automatic right to own a top end BMW. People rarely choose their professions because of remuneration. They want to make a quality living, and that doesn't mean a single payer system will not afford them so. You'll find most doctors decided their future paths because of the desire to help their fellow man, often after witnessing the distress and passing of someone close to them. Money isn't the motivator you think it is.

If preventative medicine were simple self discipline we wouldn't have the obesity epidemic we are suffering as a nation, no one would use recreational drugs like heroin and meth, everyone would be doing plenty of physical exercise, no one would eat junk food, our emergency rooms wouldn't be filled with people with no other alternatives for health care and then suffer from no follow up, and the list is endless. Preventative medicine is far more than diet and exercise, it is the seeking out of problems before they happen, including mandatory vaccinations.

We're paying trillions now, and you offer no solutions, just your whining about government and taxes. Don't judge what I suggest which has been implemented because you are on empty. You offer no solutions, just the failures of the status quo. No more excuses, no more dishonesty, no more healthcare CEO's making millions in blood money.

A healthy America is a strong and productive America. Why are you against your nation's best interests?

Can do is the American way.

My nation's best interests are served, as always, by free and open competition. Let's have that and have it abundantly. Cheerleading for a government monopoly in healthcare is asking for big problems. It's very easy to figure out. Suppose that all cars were going to be manufactured by the government and that every adult was going to be provided one. Do you think those cars would be more like roomy SUV's or more like Toyota Corollas? I think we know the answer and the worst part is that not only will you get a Corolla but you'll have no option for an SUV. Because others are happy with the Corolla, you must, de-facto, be happy with it as well. That is what you are proposing but in something much more important than cars. No thanks.
 
Have you ever studied a country where state run healthcare exists ?


Have you any idea of how popular universal, state run healthcare is in the countries where it exists ?

I have a good friend in Canada and he says it killed his mother. By the time the doctors finished determining whether an outside specialist could be allowed to come in, she died. It's great for the sniffles. For anything more dire, not so much.
 
I have medicare, and I don't sense any rationing at all. I call my doctor, if it's serious ( I once had a mild burn ) and he takes me right in, otherwise, I set an appointment for a few days later. Never had a problem.

What you currently have is not what you will get later, despite the euphemism now being applied to it.
 
Then you are fool if you think that health insurance offers liberty. Its like asking a man on death row what method of execution that he prefers.

The 8 scariest words in the language are "We're the government and we're here to help."
 
There is something wrong when you have to work for a company in order to get insured. How many people our there if they knew they would have insurance for them and their families would tell a company kick rocks I'm going over here where there are better working conditions, better pay etc.
There would be no more wife working for insurance because she's 3 years younger than husband and cant get medicare.
Companies would have to find new ways to attract desirable workers the package may even include pensions (remember those) since health insurance as a benefit is taken off the table.

Well you made that as clear as mud - the employer no longer offers their employees medical care insurance they just have to pay for it.
 
Higher taxes will never be as much as buying health insurance and co-pays and deductibles....

Unless, of course, you are deemed too rich.

The program is funded: (1) from existing sources of government revenues for health care, (2) by increasing personal income taxes on the top 5% of income earners, (3) by instituting a progressive excise tax on payroll and self-employment income, (4) by instituting a tax on unearned income, and (5) by instituting a tax on stock and bond transactions. Amounts that would have been appropriated for federal public health care programs, including Medicare, Medicaid, and the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP), are transferred and appropriated to carry out this bill.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/676
 
Well you made that as clear as mud - the employer no longer offers their employees medical care insurance they just have to pay for it.

Never mind I thought we were having a thoughtful conversation. Yes they as a company doing business in the US would have to pony up....they are doing it now.
 
Those socialist democrats who think Bolshevik government healthcare would be the best should watch Dr. Zhivago and try to learn something from it.

You should look up the word straw man argument on Wikipedia and quit doing it on this forum
 
Never mind I thought we were having a thoughtful conversation. Yes they as a company doing business in the US would have to pony up....they are doing it now.

Nope, under PPACA only some (large) employers must provide that fringe benefit.
 
My nation's best interests are served, as always, by free and open competition. Let's have that and have it abundantly. Cheerleading for a government monopoly in healthcare is asking for big problems. It's very easy to figure out. Suppose that all cars were going to be manufactured by the government and that every adult was going to be provided one. Do you think those cars would be more like roomy SUV's or more like Toyota Corollas? I think we know the answer and the worst part is that not only will you get a Corolla but you'll have no option for an SUV. Because others are happy with the Corolla, you must, de-facto, be happy with it as well. That is what you are proposing but in something much more important than cars. No thanks.

Comparing healthcare to the automobiles is ridiculous.

No one is speaking of a government monopoly. You lie again. A national healthcare single payer system does not eliminate competition for supplementary insurance. It creates a basis for proper healthcare for the nation at reduced costs with higher standards of coverage, less managerial and administrative wastes, and prevents blood money profits in the pockets of CEO's.

You are not speaking of freedom when you condemn the citizens of this nation to ill health at outrageous costs.

Your partisan BS fails.
 
What you currently have is not what you will get later, despite the euphemism now being applied to it.

I'm not seeing any evidence that a public option would be as frightful as Republicans make it out to be
 
Funny how medical for all works great in England. anyone trying to stop it in England would d be put up for treason
 
Funny how medical for all works great in England. anyone trying to stop it in England would d be put up for treason

Well it would depend wouldn’t it? How many people? Tax rates? How many pay taxes.
 
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