Gun banning Groups

[TurtleDude]

I think its disingenuous to the facts about automatic weapon crime to discount the ones used for violence your government considers illegal weapons automatic weapons as well. Committing a felony with a registered weapon is not something criminals would do.

then what was the crime control need to ban private citizens from being able to register and thus possess automatic weapons made after may 19, 1986

 

[Rucker61]

Automatic weapons were used in crimes prior to 1986.... but keeping with your stance on this they wouldnt be illegal because you dont believe in gun registries right?

Illegally owned and converted automatic weapons were used in crimes. Making them more illegal really doesn't do much to the criminal mind. Legally owned and taxed ones were not used in crimes.

making them illegal made them even harder to obtain illegally as well.

Only new ones were made illegal to purchase; the 690,000 existing ones were grandfathered, and can still be bought and sold.

"weren't that expensive" is your opinion and i think its a very misleading one.... they were far more expensive than a hand gun or hunting rifle.

That's not the point. The point is that they were affordable to the average buyer:

Annoying MG Ads

 

[Rucker61]

I think its disingenuous to the facts about automatic weapon crime to discount the ones used for violence your government considers illegal weapons automatic weapons as well. Committing a felony with a registered weapon is not something criminals would do.

Really? Every single straw purchase or FFL diversion is a de facto registered weapon, and the act of transferring it to a prohibited person is a felony itself.

 

[TurtleDude]

Actually you are talking about far more guns than just AR15's, there is a long list of firearms that would fall under an "assault" weapons ban.

Jet has never attempted to tell us who an AR 15 can be banned while an MI Carbine would not be, His best effort was pretending that an AR 15 should be banned as a weapon of war while LYING that the MI Carbine is NOT even though over 6 million US made MI carbines (Inland, Winchester, Rockola, National Postal Meter, Saginaw, International Harvester, etc made them) were issued to combat military in three wars, while the AR 15 has NEVER EVER been issued to any US military force

 

[KerouacJack]

Illegally owned and converted automatic weapons were used in crimes. Making them more illegal really doesn't do much to the criminal mind. Legally owned and taxed ones were not used in crimes.



Only new ones were made illegal to purchase; the 690,000 existing ones were grandfathered, and can still be bought and sold.



That's not the point. The point is that they were affordable to the average buyer:

Annoying MG Ads

I think your wrong on all counts there, not being able to buy new automatic weapons makes them harder to obtain and now gun manufactures had to play by different rules on the american market and lost incentive to try to make money from parts and accessories for automatic weapons... again making it harder to obtain... this freeze would only make the price go up on automatic weapons more... again making it harder.... low life criminals are not going to shell out for expensive weapons, when they can still kill you with a much cheaper handgun. That is why handguns are associated with the most violence in my opinion... they are cheapest model designed for shooting other people.

This affordable part is your opinion and i don't agree with it. The price was definitely cheaper before the 1986 automatic weapon ban.

 

[Rucker61]

I think your wrong on all counts there, not being able to buy new automatic weapons makes them harder to obtain and now gun manufactures had to play by different rules on the american market and lost incentive to try to make money from parts and accessories for automatic weapons... again making it harder to obtain... this freeze would only make the price go up on automatic weapons more... again making it harder.... low life criminals are not going to shell out for expensive weapons, when they can still kill you with a much cheaper handgun. That is why handguns are associated with the most violence in the my opinion... they are cheapest model designed for shooting other people.

This affordable part is your opinion and i don't agree with it. The price was definitely cheaper before the 1986 automatic weapon ban.

Yes, it was cheaper, and legally owned and taxed machine guns were not used in crimes. There was no reason for the 1986 Hughes Amendment.

 

[KerouacJack]

Yes, it was cheaper, and legally owned and taxed machine guns were not used in crimes. There was no reason for the 1986 Hughes Amendment.

Yes, it was to try and curb and the expansion of automatic weapons in the US so as to keep the prices high(because more automatics would lower the price) and prevent an arms race between police and criminals.

 

[KerouacJack]

Really? Every single straw purchase or FFL diversion is a de facto registered weapon, and the act of transferring it to a prohibited person is a felony itself.

I meant a weapon that was regisetered to the criminal using the weapon... they dont want paper trails

 

[TurtleDude]

Yes it was to try and curb and expansion of automatic weapons in the US so as to keep the prices high(because more automatics would lower the price) and prevent an arms race between police and criminals.

that's idiotic, there was no evidence that machine guns made for the civilian market were arming criminals.

 

[KerouacJack]

that's idiotic, there was no evidence that machine guns made for the civilian market were arming criminals.

Were there not crimes committed with automatic weapons.. before the 1986 Gun band?

Your calling them illegal weapons but those weapons and modifications were not meant to be used for crime when they were manufactured... it just ended up that way.

 

[Rucker61]

I meant a weapon that was regisetered to the criminal using the weapon... they dont want paper trails

Criminals would never register their own weapons. It's a nonsensical position.

 

[Rucker61]

Yes, it was to try and curb and the expansion of automatic weapons in the US so as to keep the prices high(because more automatics would lower the price) and prevent an arms race between police and criminals.

Criminals would just have them imported along with the drugs. There was zero mention of any arms race in the discussion of the Hughes Amendment.

 

[KerouacJack]

Criminals would just have them imported along with the drugs. There was zero mention of any arms race in the discussion of the Hughes Amendment.

This is my opinion remember you dont have to agree with it.

Importing drugs just like guns makes them more expensive... why do that when you can buy cheap ones right in US... that's not good business practice.

 

[TurtleDude]

Were there not crimes committed with automatic weapons.. before the 1986 Gun band?

Your calling them illegal weapons but those weapons and modifications were not meant to be used for crime when they were manufactured... it just ended up that way.

did you not read what I wrote. in the 50 years before the MG ban, there are only one or two cases of legally owned MGs being used in violent crimes and the only one I can find was a DAYTON police officer who killed an informant. the gun was obtained through the PD

 

[Rucker61]

This is my opinion remember you dont have to agree with it.

Importing drugs just like guns makes them more expensive... why do that when you can buy cheap ones right in US... that's not good business practice.

After 1986, a $600 AK went to $10,000 in the US, legally; much cheaper to toss a few in with a hundred kilos of cocaine.

 

[TurtleDude]

Criminals would just have them imported along with the drugs. There was zero mention of any arms race in the discussion of the Hughes Amendment.

the asshole who the act is named after admitted his goal was to derail the FAOPA of 86 and said "no one can be against banning machine guns, though the original action was supposedly only designed to ban M1-to M2 conversion kits that had no registration number.

 

[KerouacJack]

did you not read what I wrote. in the 50 years before the MG ban, there are only one or two cases of legally owned MGs being used in violent crimes and the only one I can find was a DAYTON police officer who killed an informant. the gun was obtained through the PD

The illegally owned ones were used for more crimes... when those guns or modifications were manufactured i do not think they were meant to be illegally owned and used for criminal activity.

 

[KerouacJack]

After 1986, a $600 AK went to $10,000 in the US, legally; much cheaper to toss a few in with a hundred kilos of cocaine.

Why? the amount of cocaine you have to remove to make room for the AK is worth much more.

 

[Rucker61]

Why? the amount of cocaine you have to remove to make room for the AK is worth much more.

Don't necessarily have to remove any, and the cost of tossing in a few AKs is negligible. It isn't how much you can import - it's how much money the customer is willing to spend.

 

[TurtleDude]

The illegally owned ones were used for more crimes... when those guns or modifications were manufactured i do not think they were meant to be illegally owned and used for criminal activity.

I am starting to get the feeling even YOU don't really know what you are talking about here

 

[jet57]

Actually you are talking about far more guns than just AR15's, there is a long list of firearms that would fall under an "assault" weapons ban.

The AR is the most popular subject for these mass killings, there are others yes, but the Ar is the sort 'place holder' as the model.

 

[Rucker61]

The AR is the most popular subject for these mass killings, there are others yes, but the Ar is the sort 'place holder' as the model.

Handguns are the most common type of firearm in mass killings. This has been shown to you previously.

US Mass Shootings, 1982-2017: Data From Mother Jones’ Investigation – Mother Jones

 

[KerouacJack]

I am starting to get the feeling even YOU don't really know what you are talking about here

I don't get why you want to only consider crimes with legally owned automatics.. and ignore the rest like it doesnt matter.

 

[TurtleDude]

I don't get why you want to only consider crimes with legally owned automatics.. and ignore the rest like it doesnt matter.

well when talking about CRIMES and BANNING THINGS, WTF else should we talk about concerning the BANNING of a type of firearm that has never been used to commit violent crimes when said weapons were owned legally by private citizens

 

[KerouacJack]

well when talking about CRIMES and BANNING THINGS, WTF else should we talk about concerning the BANNING of a type of firearm that has never been used to commit violent crimes when said weapons were owned legally by private citizens

I guess i need to walk you through this...

What circumstances are different between an automatic weapon that is legally possessed and one that is illegally possesed before 1986?