'Good guys with guns' hinder police

[CletusWilbury]

That's the LATimes Headline

Are more guns helpful? In Wal-Mart shooting, armed shoppers hinder police investigation Chicago Times reprint

...
But police in Thornton, Colo., said that in this case the well-intentioned gun carriers set the stage for chaos, stalling efforts to capture the suspect in the Wednesday night shooting that killed three people.

None of the armed civilians fired their weapons, and the suspect managed to flee the store.
...
But the videos showed several people in the store with their guns drawn. That forced detectives to watch more video, following the armed shoppers throughout the store in an effort to distinguish the good guys from the bad guy, Avila said.
...
The National Rifle Assn. did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
...

I wonder what the NRA will say.

 

[countryboy]

That's the LATimes Headline

Are more guns helpful? In Wal-Mart shooting, armed shoppers hinder police investigation Chicago Times reprint



I wonder what the NRA will say.

There is already a thread on this. And if lives were saved at the expense of making the cops work harder, then it is worth it.

 

[CletusWilbury]

There is already a thread on this. ...

woops

 

[cuban smokes]

That's the LATimes Headline

Are more guns helpful? In Wal-Mart shooting, armed shoppers hinder police investigation Chicago Times reprint



But police in Thornton, Colo., said that in this case the well-intentioned gun carriers set the stage for chaos, stalling efforts to capture the suspect in the Wednesday night shooting that killed three people.

None of the armed civilians fired their weapons, and the suspect managed to flee the store.
...
But the videos showed several people in the store with their guns drawn. That forced detectives to watch more video, following the armed shoppers throughout the store in an effort to distinguish the good guys from the bad guy, Avila said.
...
The National Rifle Assn. did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

I wonder what the NRA will say.

So, what you are saying is police had to actually do their job. Maybe that's not a bad thing; at least they spent time reviewing video instead of shooting unarmed citizens.

 

[VanceMack]

:lamo

Geeeeezus. How ****ing desperate do you have to be?

Law abiding citizens...legal gun owners licensed to carry...pulled their firearms. Did they 'stop' the individual from killing more people? We dont know...we just know he shot 3 and then left. Hell...when you compare the actions of the Sandy Hook shooter, his unrestrained access to unarmed individuals, and a 10 minute police response time, the fact that 'only' three people were shot is rather merciful. Again...can it be attributed to the appearance of multiple armed law abiding citizens? Well...we just dont know, do we? But we DO know...he didnt kill anyone else after those individuals pulled their firearms.

Did they obstruct law enforcement? Nope. Did they wantonly and rampantly shoot the store up? Nope.

So law enforcement did an investigation, reviewed tape, and in 5 whole hours had their man identified and arrested less than 12 hours from the incident with no further loss of life.

Given the knowns vs the unknowns? Give me a store full of armed citizens any day of the week.

 

[chuckiechan]

:lamo

Geeeeezus. How ****ing desperate do you have to be?

Law abiding citizens...legal gun owners licensed to carry...pulled their firearms. Did they 'stop' the individual from killing more people? We dont know...we just know he shot 3 and then left. Hell...when you compare the actions of the Sandy Hook shooter, his unrestrained access to unarmed individuals, and a 10 minute police response time, the fact that 'only' three people were shot is rather merciful. Again...can it be attributed to the appearance of multiple armed law abiding citizens? Well...we just dont know, do we? But we DO know...he didnt kill anyone else after those individuals pulled their firearms.

Did they obstruct law enforcement? Nope. Did they wantonly and rampantly shoot the store up? Nope.

So law enforcement did an investigation, reviewed tape, and in 5 whole hours had their man identified and arrested less than 12 hours from the incident with no further loss of life.

Given the knowns vs the unknowns? Give me a store full of armed citizens any day of the week.

First of all, a civilian with a CCW should never expose his gun except to use it. That's a good way to get shot. If the threat is heading your way, pull and prepare to shoot. If not, don't go playing Rambo unless you are 100% sure of your target, he's comfortably within the range you need to hit him fatally, and he's not wearing body armor.

A CCW does not make you a cop.

 

[VanceMack]

First of all, a civilian with a CCW should never expose his gun except to use it. That's a good way to get shot. If the threat is heading your way, pull and prepare to shoot. If not, don't go playing Rambo unless you are 100% sure of your target, he's comfortably within the range you need to hit him fatally, and he's not wearing body armor.

A CCW does not make you a cop.

There was an active shooter that ACTUALLY killed 3 people. The law abiding citizens pulled their weapons...but did not shoot up the store. They did not go chasing after him. The shooting stopped. It would be as presumptuous for me to claim that the shooter left because there were armed citizens and they prevented a greater massacre as it would be for you to claim definitively they had no impact on his decision to flee.

So again...how ****ed up over a 'cause' do you have to be to try to turn what appears to be a case of 'good guys with guns ' quite possibly saving lives...into a diatribe against CCW?

 

[Crosscheck]

There was an active shooter that ACTUALLY killed 3 people. The law abiding citizens pulled their weapons...but did not shoot up the store. They did not go chasing after him. The shooting stopped. It would be as presumptuous for me to claim that the shooter left because there were armed citizens and they prevented a greater massacre as it would be for you to claim definitively they had no impact on his decision to flee.

So again...how ****ed up over a 'cause' do you have to be to try to turn what appears to be a case of 'good guys with guns ' quite possibly saving lives...into a diatribe against CCW?

Well it does present a possible problem for law enforcement. I am a CCW and have thought about that too.

I don't know which would be better. Letting the gunman know there are others armed or keeping your gun hidden until you plan to shoot. For a police officer arriving into a store with multiple shot victims and a number of people holding guns it does set up a problem for them identifying who is the good guy and who is the bad guy.

One could quickly identify themselves as legal CCW to the police but so could the gunman. I actually think the best scenario would be to put your firearm down once the police enters the property.

I would be curious to find out the response from any law enforcement here.

 

[VanceMack]

Well it does present a possible problem for law enforcement. I am a CCW and have thought about that too.

I don't know which would be better. Letting the gunman know there are others armed or keeping your gun hidden until you plan to shoot. For a police officer arriving into a store with multiple shot victims and a number of people holding guns it does set up a problem for them identifying who is the good guy and who is the bad guy.

One could quickly identify themselves as legal CCW to the police but so could the gunman. I actually think the best scenario would be to put your firearm down once the police enters the property.

I would be curious to find out the response from any law enforcement here.

Law enforcement response to criminal activities is usually anywhere between 7-12 minutes. This comment made is not that the CCW holders made the environment more dangerous...there is zero indication that is the case, merely that when the police responded and when they viewed the video, they saw several law abiding citizens pull weapons.

Again...we are left with a scenario of an active shooter and an unarmed populace with unfettered access to potential victims for approx 7-12 minutes while waiting for law enforcement or the reality that in this particular incident, a shooter killed three people and then left. In this particular incident there was also IMMEDIATE armed response to the incident.

Give me the law abiding citizen on the scene vs hiding behind a cash register waiting for your turn to die any day of the week.

 

[shrubnose]

Anyone who 'hinders police'is not a 'good guy'.

That's what I say.

 

[Rucker61]

Anyone who 'hinders police'is not a 'good guy'.

That's what I say.

Do citizens requiring the police to respect the 4th Amendment "hinder police"?

 

[VanceMack]

Anyone who 'hinders police'is not a 'good guy'.

That's what I say.

No one 'hindered the police' at Sandy Hook. No one hindered the police in Aurora Colorado. I'm sure the families of the dead victims there will be eternally grateful no armed citizens 'hindered police' there.

Armed citizens...and the man left. Cops arrived several minutes later. No armed citizen 'hindered the police'. Your claim is as inane as your political predictions.

 

[Lursa]

That's the LATimes Headline

Are more guns helpful? In Wal-Mart shooting, armed shoppers hinder police investigation Chicago Times reprint

But police in Thornton, Colo., said that in this case the well-intentioned gun carriers set the stage for chaos, stalling efforts to capture the suspect in the Wednesday night shooting that killed three people.

None of the armed civilians fired their weapons, and the suspect managed to flee the store.
...
But the videos showed several people in the store with their guns drawn. That forced detectives to watch more video, following the armed shoppers throughout the store in an effort to distinguish the good guys from the bad guy, Avila said.
...
The National Rifle Assn. did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

I wonder what the NRA will say.

Oh boo hoo. The detectives had to watch more video *after* the incident. It's their job to investigate.

The real point here is that, altho there were several other Americans legally carrying firearms, none of them got involved inappropriately in the incident. There was no 'shoot out at the OK Corral' as anti-gun people claim is a foregone conclusion.

 

[chuckiechan]

There was an active shooter that ACTUALLY killed 3 people. The law abiding citizens pulled their weapons...but did not shoot up the store. They did not go chasing after him. The shooting stopped. It would be as presumptuous for me to claim that the shooter left because there were armed citizens and they prevented a greater massacre as it would be for you to claim definitively they had no impact on his decision to flee.

So again...how ****ed up over a 'cause' do you have to be to try to turn what appears to be a case of 'good guys with guns ' quite possibly saving lives...into a diatribe against CCW?

You drew the wrong conclusion. I'm giving advice. If the cops see you with a gun, it just confuses the issue. Keep it out of sight unless you are going to use it immediately. Chill off, amigo.

 

[Lursa]

You drew the wrong conclusion. I'm giving advice. If the cops see you with a gun, it just confuses the issue. Keep it out of sight unless you are going to use it immediately. Chill off, amigo.

Agreed but if you are in a situation where shots have been fired and you dont know who or where, it's perfectly legitimate to have your weapon at the ready, finger off the trigger. Waiting to draw puts you behind the curve and could put you at a disadvantage.

In such a scenario as this, I would 'not' be seeking the shooter but would be trying to identify them in the people around me. I'd be focused on self-defense and with that in mind, be prepared to NOT have a cop see me with my firearm out....I sure as heck dont think the odds of them not shooting me first are very good.

 

[VanceMack]

You drew the wrong conclusion. I'm giving advice. If the cops see you with a gun, it just confuses the issue. Keep it out of sight unless you are going to use it immediately. Chill off, amigo.

Do you understand that the citizens with the guns were not there with weapons drawn when the police arrived but were seen on video AFTER the fact?

 

[chuckiechan]

Do you understand that the citizens with the guns were not there with weapons drawn when the police arrived but were seen on video AFTER the fact?

To clear up a non-argument:

You drew the wrong conclusion. I'm giving advice. If the cops see you with a gun, it just confuses the issue. Keep it out of sight unless you are going to use it immediately. Chill off, amigo.

 

[ecofarm]

Investigators had to spend a couple extra hours reviewing video because several patrons were prepared to defend themselves and others. Instead of recognizing and appreciating the realization of prudent citizen first-responders, the take is submission, fear and retreat would save some time?

I'll be going in with a knife, it's good to know a firearm will ensure it's not in vain.

 

[BretJ]

Anyone who purposefully and with malice 'hinders police' is not a 'good guy'.

That's what I say.

There. Fixed it for you. Did not want you to come off as pompous.

 

[BretJ]

Do citizens requiring the police to respect the 4th Amendment "hinder police"?

Lawyers and judges hinder the police all the time.

 

[Nap]

Agreed but if you are in a situation where shots have been fired and you dont know who or where, it's perfectly legitimate to have your weapon at the ready, finger off the trigger. Waiting to draw puts you behind the curve and could put you at a disadvantage.

In such a scenario as this, I would 'not' be seeking the shooter but would be trying to identify them in the people around me. I'd be focused on self-defense and with that in mind, be prepared to NOT have a cop see me with my firearm out....I sure as heck dont think the odds of them not shooting me first are very good.

It could put you at a disadvantage, but if you don't know who or where the shooter is and you have your gun out you are then an immediate target. It really depends on the situation, if people are being shot indiscriminately then it would be wise to have it out and ready, otherwise I would keep it concealed and put myself in the best position to defend myself or flee if possible.

 

[VanceMack]

To clear up a non-argument:

Is not advice that appears to be needed-by anyone and certainly not those that responded at the scene...in a thread started by an anti-gun leftist citing an article written by anti-gun leftists.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

There is already a thread on this. And if lives were saved at the expense of making the cops work harder, then it is worth it.

I agree with you about lives saved vs. work for LEO's, but I can easily see a situation where the cops show up and they can't easily tell the bad guys from the good.

Note that I'm not against the right to legally carry, I'm just pointing out a potential complication. Were I on that scene, I'd rather have been armed than unarmed.

 

[Rucker61]

I agree with you about lives saved vs. work for LEO's, but I can easily see a situation where the cops show up and they can't easily tell the bad guys from the good.

Note that I'm not against the right to legally carry, I'm just pointing out a potential complication. Were I on that scene, I'd rather have been armed than unarmed.

By the time the cops show up the danger should be over and my weapon back in its holster.

 

[VanceMack]

I think I have a working solution to all of this. In the event you find yourself in one if these incidents, I encourage all anti-gun leftists to vow to jump up and down and say "ME!!! Shoot me!!! I'm unarmed and I dont want any of you here with a gun to try to help, you ****ing gun nut bastards! Now...where was I...oh yeah...Shoot me!!! Shoot me!!!"