Goddit versus Evolution

[soylentgreen]

Beyond this.



I'd also like to add what I meant when addressing Governess re aquatic and burrowing.

The explanation in the video was rather simple. The mammals developed brains which were complex enough to achieve learning and other behavior modifications, such as hiding in burrows by day and feeding at night: nocturnal behavior. They also learned to go hide in remote swampy areas, which apparently were cold and forced them to evolve fur which fluffs, a reflex which today gives us goose bumps.

That has nothing to do with intelligence. Any beast can achieve that. Dinosaurs themselves developed ways of hunting and preventing themselves from being hunted. Any significant development that took man a step away from just any other animal began long after the dinosaur.

 

[calamity]

I only saw that only after the dinosaur had long gone. During the period they diminished in size so as to better dig holes and escape the dinosaur.


Oh! that's right, i had forgotten that you claim to be an atheist. One that now thinks you can support a belief if only we just admit that the stories were allegory.

But if the resurrection is myth then what about all the other claims, walking on water, food from heaven, curing with a touch, raising the dead, being a walking dead. tell me the part about jesus that is not to be seen as an allegory, and why.

Of course they are all myths. What I was driving at was the parables and other lessons are being ignored by his believers while they focus on the hocus pocus of resurrection, believing it as if it were fact. But, at the same time, they admit that the Garden of Eden and Noah's Ark saving all the animals during the Flood are myths.

 

[beefheart]

I heard something on the Herman Caine radio show that made me shake my head. mostly because I know it's believed by many. "God made men and women."

Uh, no. Sex evolved. God didn't do it. Just like God did not create humans, we evolved...from the same ancestor as did the apes. In fact, God, if it even exists, did not do squat. Almost everything can be quite reasonably explained without the need to pull a god out of your hat.

Caine is a talibornagain wacko. Science disproves ancient myths and stories, but some idiots have to keep believing.

 

[soylentgreen]

Of course they are all myths. What I was driving at was the parables and other lessons are being ignored by his believers while they focus on the hocus pocus of resurrection, believing it as if it were fact. But, at the same time, they admit that the Garden of Eden and Noah's Ark saving all the animals during the Flood are myths.

Not sure how it makes a real difference. At least from a perspective of an atheist. Regardless of whether the theist holds the story to be literal or an allegory, either way both will treat it as a parable. There is a lesson to be learned is the mantra repeated. So either way we are still dealing with what is basically one persons interpretation based more on their own neurosis than anything the bible might say.

 

[calamity]

That has nothing to do with intelligence. Any beast can achieve that. Dinosaurs themselves developed ways of hunting and preventing themselves from being hunted. Any significant development that took man a step away from just any other animal began long after the dinosaur.

Did you miss the part in the video where they clearly stated that the mammalian brain changed, rendering what would eventually become us more flexible?

Mammals probably evolved late in the Permian, breaking away from reptiles completely by the time of the extinction. Pressures from the dinosaur domination in the years after, forced these mammals to learn new tricks....a complex brain is critical for that.

You do know that mammals have more complex brains than reptiles. Correct?

 

[calamity]

Not sure how it makes a real difference. At least from a perspective of an atheist. Regardless of whether the theist holds the story to be literal or an allegory, either way both will treat it as a parable. There is a lesson to be learned is the mantra repeated. So either way we are still dealing with what is basically one persons interpretation based more on their own neurosis than anything the bible might say.

Atheist/theist....can't you have a normal conversation discussing ideas and philosophies without resorting to that binary garbage?

What we have is an old book chock full of myths and parables that some people are cherry picking for personal reasons.

 

[soylentgreen]

Did you miss the part in the video where they clearly stated that the mammalian brain changed, rendering what would eventually become us more flexible?

Mammals probably evolved late in the Permian, breaking away from reptiles completely by the time of the extinction. Pressures from the dinosaur domination in the years after, forced these mammals to learn new tricks....a complex brain is critical for that.

You do know that mammals have more complex brains than reptiles. Correct?

So do modern day mammals. Such as the cows and sheep that we eat. Nothing there but normal evolution. The steps from a small mammal to that of human took place long after dinosours.

 

[soylentgreen]

Atheist/theist....can't you have a normal conversation discussing ideas and philosophies without resorting to that binary garbage?

What we have is an old book chock full of myths and parables that some people are cherry picking for personal reasons.

That particular binary is rather important to how one looks at such things. And yes, old news about the cherry picking which all of us know about. The problem has always been the motivation for that cherry picking

 

[calamity]

So do modern day mammals. Such as the cows and sheep that we eat. Nothing there but normal evolution. The steps from a small mammal to that of human took place long after dinosours.

Of course its evolution. Where have you been? Read the OP.

 

[calamity]

That particular binary is rather important to how one looks at such things. And yes, old news about the cherry picking which all of us know about. The problem has always been the motivation for that cherry picking

No. It seems that your obsessive focus on that binary leaves you missing the rest of the ****ing conversation.

 

[soylentgreen]

Of course its evolution. Where have you been? Read the OP.

Yes, what has that got to do with anything? My problem with your argument started when you said mammals developed nocturnal habits and superior brains by dodging dinosaurs. The link you gave does not back that. Around the twenty minute mark it states mammals shrunk and went nocturnal. Nothing about developing a superior brain till long after the death of the dinosaurs.

No. It seems that your obsessive focus on that binary leaves you missing the rest of the ****ing conversation.

Which is what? Is this another attempt by you to say " even though god does not exist but we cannot prove it so let's act as if it is possible" theory?

The conversation i am having with crab cake is in an attempt to find out where does treating the bible stories as if they were allegory lead us? That makes ones personal position of treating the book as fake and useless or full of wonderful parables to teach us or historical reminders of what happens if we disobey. But then you have to be an atheist or a theist to appreciate the differences.

 

[tosca1]

I'm saying we know why those things occur, and god has nothing to do with it. Now, are there some things that occur for which we have no clue as to how or why they occur? Sure. Could someone say "Goddidit"? I guess. But, then the reasonable thing to ask is if there is another explanation. And, guess what, there usually is.

:roll:

This is where your belief becomes senseless.
If you have no clue as to how they occurred.....why are you eliminating the possibility that God
probably did it?


Why are you so sure God does not exist, or He had nothing to do with creation?

On what basis do you stake your claim? Surely, not science.....after all, science does not eliminate
the possibility of God.

If science does not eliminate God.....what's your basis for your claim?

 

[tosca1]

Of course they are all myths. What I was driving at was the parables and other lessons are being ignored by his believers while they focus on the hocus pocus of resurrection, believing it as if it were fact. But, at the same time, they admit that the Garden of Eden and Noah's Ark saving all the animals during the Flood are myths.

You're too emotional......that's probably why your arguments are irrational.

Btw, not all Christians believe the Garden of Eden is a myth......or Noah's Ark for that matter.

 

[tosca1]

I heard something on the Herman Caine radio show that made me shake my head. mostly because I know it's believed by many. "God made men and women."

Uh, no. Sex evolved. God didn't do it. Just like God did not create humans, we evolved...from the same ancestor as did the apes. In fact, God, if it even exists, did not do squat. Almost everything can be quite reasonably explained without the need to pull a god out of your hat.

You're in philosophy section. Personal opinions mean squat here.......unless they're backed by REASON.


So, explain to us why you believe that.
Perhaps you can start by explaining to us about the origin of life - the very first link in this
so-called daisy-chain.



Uhh, btw, just to point it out..........we're now in 2017.
So far I've yet to hear a universal language from our cousin animals that we can at least understand.
Guttural nyerk-nyerk don't count. Neither is the woof-woof. :mrgreen:






Just look at the crocodile - one of the prehistoric reptiles, eh? Still on all fours? Boy......WHY???

Crocodiles - The Ancient Cousins of the Dinosaurs
200 Million Years of Crocodile Evolution

https://www.thoughtco.com/crocodiles-the-ancient-cousins-of-dinosaurs-1093747



200 million years.......talk about slooooooooow......


Can you explain that please, why they're taking so long to catch up to us when it's really crucial for them to do so. Look how we're killing our cousins to extinction. Maybe if we understand them, they can explain and stop us from making them go extinct.

 

[calamity]

Yes, what has that got to do with anything? My problem with your argument started when you said mammals developed nocturnal habits and superior brains by dodging dinosaurs. The link you gave does not back that. Around the twenty minute mark it states mammals shrunk and went nocturnal. Nothing about developing a superior brain till long after the death of the dinosaurs.

At 19:00, right after the Permian Extinction, it begins talking about fur covered lizard-like creature about the size of a cat. Pay close attention through the next three minutes. At 21:12, after discussing how we shrunk, grew more sensitive fur and became nocturnal, it begins discussing how our senses sharpened so that we can see, hear and smell dinosaurs before a dinosaur sees us? And, guess what? At exactly 21:26 it begins explaining how our brain evolves a neocortex, "the home of complex thought." From there, we begin living on our wits, as stated at 21:56.

You probably would have caught that if you weren't so focused on being polemic.

Which is what? Is this another attempt by you to say " even though god does not exist but we cannot prove it so let's act as if it is possible" theory?

The conversation i am having with crab cake is in an attempt to find out where does treating the bible stories as if they were allegory lead us? That makes ones personal position of treating the book as fake and useless or full of wonderful parables to teach us or historical reminders of what happens if we disobey. But then you have to be an atheist or a theist to appreciate the differences.

Neither evolution nor dissecting the myths in the Bible is necessarily a binary, atheist/theist, discussion. One can be anywhere on the theological spectrum to acknowledge that evolution nicely explains the differences we see in living things today. And, the same can be said for seeing most of what is written in the Bible as myth, with some allegorical lesson-plans thrown in. But, we can also see that many of those lessons are obsolete--like the lessons on exactly how to beat your wife, kids and slaves, for example--while a few of the newer ones in the Gospels may actually have benefit in how better to live in a civilized society: love your neighbor as you would yourself.

 

[calamity]

You're in philosophy section. Personal opinions mean squat here.......unless they're backed by REASON.


So, explain to us why you believe that.
Perhaps you can start by explaining to us about the origin of life - the very first link in this
so-called daisy-chain.



Uhh, btw, just to point it out..........we're now in 2017.
So far I've yet to hear a universal language from our cousin animals that we can at least understand.
Guttural nyerk-nyerk don't count. Neither is the woof-woof. :mrgreen:






Just look at the crocodile - one of the prehistoric reptiles, eh? Still on all fours? Boy......WHY???






https://www.thoughtco.com/crocodiles-the-ancient-cousins-of-dinosaurs-1093747



200 million years.......talk about slooooooooow......


Can you explain that please, why they're taking so long to catch up to us when it's really crucial for them to do so. Look how we're killing our cousins to extinction. Maybe if we understand them, they can explain and stop us from making them go extinct.

Sure. Life began in the water as amino acids and long carbon chains, most of which were destroyed by the environment until a few began being swallowed up by tiny oily blobs. The blobs served to protect the chains from being destroyed by the environment. This safe space then gave the chains time to transform into something unique. And, from there, they eventually began to self-replicate--hence the first living cell.

 

[calamity]

You're too emotional......that's probably why your arguments are irrational.

Ironic post of the month nominee.

Btw, not all Christians believe the Garden of Eden is a myth......or Noah's Ark for that matter.

I'm aware of that. Although it does surprise me when I meet someone like that.

 

[calamity]

:roll:

This is where your belief becomes senseless.
If you have no clue as to how they occurred.....why are you eliminating the possibility that God
probably did it?


Why are you so sure God does not exist, or He had nothing to do with creation?

On what basis do you stake your claim? Surely, not science.....after all, science does not eliminate
the possibility of God.

If science does not eliminate God.....what's your basis for your claim?

Because introducing god to explain the unexplained simply adds more questions to the problem than it answers.

Example: How was the universe created? Only real answer: We do not know. Silly answer: "Goddidit." Well, Ok...then explain to us how god was created. See, throwing god into the mix only adds another question to the puzzle. It answers nothing.

 

[CrabCake]

And if i read a story of a man who can walk on water, rain manna from heaven, raise the dead and become one of the walking dead himself. Should that not also be instantly clear that this man is nothing more than an allegory.

We know he existed. In order to believe the whole story of Jesus to be allegorical, you would have to discard enormous amounts of historical evidence. So, no it would not make sense to believe the gospels are allegorical. It would make sense to consider certain parts of them mythological or symbolic, and many people do.

 

[tosca1]

Sure. Life began in the water as amino acids and long carbon chains, most of which were destroyed by the environment until a few began being swallowed up by tiny oily blobs. The blobs served to protect the chains from being destroyed by the environment. This safe space then gave the chains time to transform into something unique. And, from there, they eventually began to self-replicate--hence the first living cell.

You must be referring to the so-called "LUCA," the allegedly Last Universal Common Ancestor. That's just a speculation. The Phylogenetic Tree - "Tree of Life" - is problematic.

Also.....no one had discovered the origin of life.

Here, take it from NASA.

It must be noted that LUCA is not the origin of life.

The earliest evidence of life dates to 3.7 billion years ago in the form of stromatolites, which are layers of sediment laid down by microbes. Presumably, life may have existed even before that.

Yet, LUCA’s arrival and its evolution into archaea and bacteria could have occurred at any point between 2 to 4 billion years ago.
[/B]

https://astrobiology.nasa.gov/news/looking-for-luca-the-last-universal-common-ancestor/


As usual - a lot of presumably, may have, could be, likely - the typical words and phrases that always accompany evolution. :roll:

 

[tosca1]

Sure. Life began in the water as amino acids and long carbon chains, most of which were destroyed by the environment until a few began being swallowed up by tiny oily blobs. The blobs served to protect the chains from being destroyed by the environment. This safe space then gave the chains time to transform into something unique. And, from there, they eventually began to self-replicate--hence the first living cell.

Explain the crocodile. 200 million years or more of evolution - and it still looks so prehistoric! The same too about its first cousin - the alligator!


You'd think if we all came from the same ancestor - any of these animals would have at least not too far behind from us humans! But as you can see - there's a chasm that divide us!

Not even one of these animals ever came close - not even halfway close to how we humans are now!
Not even in as simple as posture!

 

[tosca1]

Because introducing god to explain the unexplained simply adds more questions to the problem than it answers.

You're confused. Look at your string of evolution theories! One theory after another! It simply adds more questions to the problem than it answers it. :lol:

As a simple example, why don't you explain to us about the crocodile? 200 million plus years of evolution - look at it!

Example: How was the universe created? Only real answer: We do not know. Silly answer: "Goddidit." Well, Ok...then explain to us how god was created. See, throwing god into the mix only adds another question to the puzzle. It answers nothing.

You're deflecting. Your attempt to laugh this off isn't helping you one bit.
It isn't changing the fact that all you're giving is an irrational opinion, so far.



Here's where you stand, Calamity.....


Science has not eliminated the possibility of creation. In fact they have a term for the belief that God created the universe - Theistic evolution. And according to science, it does not disagree with the explanations of evolution!


So, I'm asking you. If you're contradicting science by eliminating the possibility of creation - on what ground do you base your claim?

Right now, unless you can explain a RATIONAL basis for your claim, you're the one who's actually believing in a cockamamie concoction that some of us can rationally equate with "myth."

So far, you're giving us a yarn of a fairy tale called, The Frog Prince!

 

[calamity]

You're confused. Well look at your string of evolution theories! One theory after another! :lol:





You're deflecting. Your attempt to laugh this off isn't helping you one bit.
It isn't changing the fact that all you gave is an irrational opinion, so far.

Here's where you stand, Calamity.....


Science has not eliminated the possibility of creation. In fact they have a term for the belief that God created the universe - Theistic evolution. And according to science, it does not disagree with the explanations of evolution!

So, I'm asking you. If you're contradicting science by eliminating the possibility of creation - on what ground do you base your claim?

Right now, unless you can explain a RATIONAL basis for your claim, you're the one who's actually believing in a cockamamie concoction that some of us can rationally equate with "myth."

So far, you're giving us a yarn of a fairy tale called, The Frog Prince!

We know for a fact that sexual dimorphism evolved sans the need for creationism.

 

[calamity]

Explain the crocodile. 200 million years or more of evolution - and it still looks so prehistoric! The same too about its first cousin - the alligator!


You'd think if we all came from the same ancestor - any of these animals would have at least not too far behind from us humans! But as you can see - there's a chasm that divide us!

Not even one of these animals ever came close - not even halfway close to how we humans are now!
Not even in as simple as posture!

The crocodile and alligator were well adapted to their environment and did not go extinct. No big mystery there.

 

[tosca1]

We know for a fact that sexual dimorphism evolved sans the need for creationism.

:roll:

Sexual dimorphism is the existence of physical differences between the sexes, other than differences in the sex organs. Darwin contended that sexual dimorphism evolved by means of sexual selection.

Evolution - A-Z - Sexual dimorphism



Now.....I'm starting to question if you even know what you're on about.



Do you know what origin is?

"Evolved".....isn't necessarily the origin of life, Calamity.

I want you to show me the very first life that got the so-called ball of evolution rolling.