Goddit versus Evolution

[ashurbanipal]

There is no such thing as evidence of a negative.

Sure there is. What in the world would make you think that? More to the point, why is this relevant?

An entity cannot leave evidence of its non-interaction. There is no reason to invoke a god when the science already explains things.

Science doesn't explain things, at least not to the level most people think.

 

[ashurbanipal]

The lack of any credible evidence is a good basis.

Sure, though I disagree there's no credible evidence.

 

[devildavid]

There are plenty of reasons people believe in God, and some of those are reasonable reasons. It's reasonable for a mystic who has seen God to believe in God, for example.

That said, note that this is an extension of the OP, which attempts to rule out divine action. My point was simply that there's no basis to do so.

Wouldn't you say that a mystic who has literally seen god knows that god is real; that it becomes more than just a belief?

 

[ashurbanipal]

Because there is no need to pull god out of a hat to explain those things.

Well, I disagree. But suppose I don't. Even granting you this point is not sufficient to make your original case--which was my initial point. That evolution may explain, or may be taken to explain, the current state of life on earth is no argument against someone who, for other reasons, may believe that God had a hand in the state of life on earth.

 

[ashurbanipal]

Wouldn't you say that a mystic who has literally seen god knows that god is real; that it becomes more than just a belief?

Well...maybe. I think there has to be some reasonable skepticism, and that's actually part of any legitimate mystical apparatus. But that said, I think in most cases knowledge entails belief. Someone who knows God exists believes God exists.

 

[devildavid]

Well...maybe. I think there has to be some reasonable skepticism, and that's actually part of any legitimate mystical apparatus. But that said, I think in most cases knowledge entails belief. Someone who knows God exists believes God exists.

I know that the sun exists. Is that the same as a belief?

 

[calamity]

Well, I disagree. But suppose I don't. Even granting you this point is not sufficient to make your original case--which was my initial point. That evolution may explain, or may be taken to explain, the current state of life on earth is no argument against someone who, for other reasons, may believe that God had a hand in the state of life on earth.

Did god make men and women? Answer: No.

It's not really up for debate. Or, at least, it should not be :roll:

 

[calamity]

The belief in a power greater than ourselves, and even attributing a name to that power, is not denying that other explanations may be valid for certain things. Are you now "probably" changing your OP tune and doubting that God is a reasonable possible cause for some of "those unknowns"?

Not changing anything. Let's say, for the sake of argument, a god exists. What has it done? Nothing that we can point to and say, "God did that." Correct?

I'm basically saying that we know it's false when someone points to a sunset, a flower, a man or a woman and says, "Goddit."

 

[ttwtt78640]

Not changing anything. Let's say, for the sake of argument, a god exists. What has it done? Nothing that we can point to and say, "God did that." Correct?

I'm basically saying that we know it's false when someone points to a sunset, a flower, a man or a woman and says, "Goddit."

Yep, you must be right because these things have all been confirmed to exist together on many other planets where nobody ever claimed God had a hand in them.

 

[the_recruit]

Care to list some of those exceptions and why they point to God as their cause/creator?

Tide goes in. Tide goes out.

 

[calamity]

Yep, you must be right because these things have all been confirmed to exist together on many other planets where nobody ever claimed God had a hand in them.

I'm saying we know why those things occur, and god has nothing to do with it. Now, are there some things that occur for which we have no clue as to how or why they occur? Sure. Could someone say "Goddidit"? I guess. But, then the reasonable thing to ask is if there is another explanation. And, guess what, there usually is.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I'm saying we know why those things occur, and god has nothing to do with it. Now, are there some things that occur for which we have no clue as to how or why they occur? Sure. Could someone say "Goddidit"? I guess. But, then the reasonable thing to ask is if there is another explanation. And, guess what, there usually is.

The Earth being rather unique in a vast observable area certainly qualifies (as a miracle?) in that regard.

 

[faithful_servant]

Why rule in divine action?

Too many changes needed, not enough time to make those changes. Without some form of intelligence behind our evolution, there simply isn't enough time for random changes to occur and propagate throughout a population.

 

[faithful_servant]

Yep. The Earth ain't 6,000 years old.

A lot of us are Old Earth Creationists.

 

[RAMOSS]

Too many changes needed, not enough time to make those changes. Without some form of intelligence behind our evolution, there simply isn't enough time for random changes to occur and propagate throughout a population.

And, exactly how do you know that?? Why are 'too many changes' needed? What is the criteria that you determined that there isn't enough time for random changes to occur and propogate throughout a population? What about the filter of natural selection?? Have you taken that into account?

 

[faithful_servant]

Well, it rules out the literal view of Genesis 1-3 that so many evangelicals push these days. But that view is an aberation in the history of Judeo-Christian-Islamic thought. It wasn't unusual for medieval theologians, for example, to ponder the age of the earth, and to suppose it was inconceivably old (Aquinas, for example, rejects the notion that anyone knew the age of the earth).

The literal view that from the perspective of the original author (God) that the world took 6 days to get to the point where God communicated His story to mankind?? Einstein says that the numbers line up very well. As gravity increases, time slows. We have a very good idea of the mass of the universe and what the gravity would have been like at the moment of creation, giving us the "rate" at which time would have been flowing. At that "rate" we're at the very tail end of day #6 since the Big Bang.

When science and the Bible don't seem to line up, it's almost always a failure on OUR part to understand one or the other (or both).

 

[faithful_servant]

Anti-feminist, trying to explain that men and women are different.

How is the scientific fact that men and women are different, "anti-feminist"?

 

[calamity]

Too many changes needed, not enough time to make those changes. Without some form of intelligence behind our evolution, there simply isn't enough time for random changes to occur and propagate throughout a population.

lol...14 billion years isn't enough time? :roll:

 

[calamity]

How is the scientific fact that men and women are different, "anti-feminist"?

He started out by stating he was anti-feminist, and then he used the line "god made men and women different" to justify his argument.

 

[calamity]

The Earth being rather unique in a vast observable area certainly qualifies (as a miracle?) in that regard.

Is it really that "unique" and what little we observe really that "vast" when we take the entire Universe into consideration?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Is it really that "unique" and what little we observe really that "vast" when we take the entire Universe into consideration?

I don't know - you tell me.

 

[TheGoverness]

Too many changes needed, not enough time to make those changes. Without some form of intelligence behind our evolution, there simply isn't enough time for random changes to occur and propagate throughout a population.

What? There's plenty of time to for changes (not random) to arise through natural selection.

 

[ashurbanipal]

I know that the sun exists. Is that the same as a belief?

Hmmmm..."the same as"...not exactly. Knowledge is a kind of belief (usually), a belief with added properties. Your question is similar to this: I have a triangle here. Is that the same as a shape? A triangle is a kind of shape, and if you have a triangle, you have a shape. But not all shapes are triangles. Similarly, all knowledge is belief, but not all belief is knowledge.

Knowledge is usually analyzed as justified true belief plus some anti-luck or virtue clause.

 

[ashurbanipal]

Did god make men and women? Answer: No.

It's not really up for debate. Or, at least, it should not be.

Why in the world would it not be up for debate?

 

[ashurbanipal]

The literal view that from the perspective of the original author (God) that the world took 6 days to get to the point where God communicated His story to mankind?? Einstein says that the numbers line up very well. As gravity increases, time slows. We have a very good idea of the mass of the universe and what the gravity would have been like at the moment of creation, giving us the "rate" at which time would have been flowing. At that "rate" we're at the very tail end of day #6 since the Big Bang.

When science and the Bible don't seem to line up, it's almost always a failure on OUR part to understand one or the other (or both).

You'll have to explain that a lot more carefully before I could comment.