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Free Speech and Nazi Doctrine

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Your chart shows a minority supporting Hitler.

You wrongly stated that a MAJORITY supported Hitler in Germany. Where is the evidence of this boast?

IN 1934..........

From 1932 to 1934 a HUGE upswing.

1934, before the political, international and military victories.
 
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Because the 32 election cycle was the last free and truly representative elections in Germany which reflected the opinion of the German people. If you have some other objective measurement to present, please do so.

But you will not.

I gave my evidence to support my claim that you were wrong about a majority of Germans supporting Hitler. My point has been made.

You, on the other hand, have offered no evidence of any kind to support your claim that a majority of Germans supported Hitler.

And you still have not.

Nor will you because no such evidence exists. You really need to read William L. Shirer's excellent RISE AND FALL OF THE THIRD REICH to educate you on this point so you can avoid embracing yourself and making these glaring mistakes in the future.

1932 results are irrelevant to 1940 support.

And you know this.
 
A watered-down platform, not including any of his crazy and radical crap, never garnered more than a third of parliament before he illegally seized power.

That is 100% correct. There is no evidence that a majority of Germans supported Hitler or Nazism.
 
1932 results are irrelevant to 1940 support.

And you know this.

So show us his 1940 support that accurately and fairly measures it in Germany. Do it.

So far, all we have is a opinion piece bout a time when no dissent against Hitler was allowed. And that does not cut it.
 
IN 1934..........

From 1932 to 1934 a HUGE upswing.

1934, before the political, international and military victories.

Where is the MAJORITY SUPPORT you claimed to have existed?
 
Where is the MAJORITY SUPPORT you claimed to have existed?

Sebastian Haffner plausibly reckoned that Hitler had succeeded by 1938 in winning the support of "the great majority of that majority who had voted against him in 1933." Indeed Haffner thought that by then Hitler had united almost the entire German people behind him, that more than 90 percent of Germans were by that time "believers in the Führer." In the absence of any genuine test of opinion, and in conditions of intimidation and repression for those who might dare to challenge official propaganda, when the only public opinion which existed was that of the regime's agencies, such a figure can only be guesswork, and is probably too high. At the same time, it seems hard to deny that the regime had won much support since 1933, and that this owed much to the perceived personal "achievements" of Hitler. The personalized focus of the regime's "successes" reflected the ceaseless efforts of propaganda, which had been consciously directed to creating and building up the "heroic" image of Hitler as a towering genius, to the extent that Joseph Goebbels could in 1941 with some justification claim the creation of the Führer Myth to have been his greatest propaganda achievement.

Though Hitler's anti-Semitic paranoia was not shared by the vast bulk of the population, it plainly did not weigh heavily enough in the scales on the negative side to outweigh the positive attributes that the majority saw in him. The widely prevalent latent dislike of Jews, even before monopolistic Nazi propaganda got to work to drum in the messages of hatred, could offer no barrier to the "dynamic" hatred present in a sizeable minority -- though after 1933 a minority holding power. Much research has illustrated a diversity of attitudes towards the persecution of the Jews (most plainly visible in varied reactions to the promulgation of the Nuremberg Laws in September 1935 and "Kristallnacht" in November 1938). Nevertheless, the Nazis appear to have been successful in establishing, in most people's eyes, that there was a „Jewish Question“, and in deepening the anti-Jewish feeling at the time that the external threat of imminent war was growing.

The Führer Myth: How Hitler Won Over the German People - SPIEGEL ONLINE
 
Sebastian Haffner plausibly reckoned that Hitler had succeeded by 1938 in winning the support of "the great majority of that majority who had voted against him in 1933." Indeed Haffner thought that by then Hitler had united almost the entire German people behind him, that more than 90 percent of Germans were by that time "believers in the Führer." In the absence of any genuine test of opinion, and in conditions of intimidation and repression for those who might dare to challenge official propaganda, when the only public opinion which existed was that of the regime's agencies, such a figure can only be guesswork, and is probably too high. At the same time, it seems hard to deny that the regime had won much support since 1933, and that this owed much to the perceived personal "achievements" of Hitler. The personalized focus of the regime's "successes" reflected the ceaseless efforts of propaganda, which had been consciously directed to creating and building up the "heroic" image of Hitler as a towering genius, to the extent that Joseph Goebbels could in 1941 with some justification claim the creation of the Führer Myth to have been his greatest propaganda achievement.

Though Hitler's anti-Semitic paranoia was not shared by the vast bulk of the population, it plainly did not weigh heavily enough in the scales on the negative side to outweigh the positive attributes that the majority saw in him. The widely prevalent latent dislike of Jews, even before monopolistic Nazi propaganda got to work to drum in the messages of hatred, could offer no barrier to the "dynamic" hatred present in a sizeable minority -- though after 1933 a minority holding power. Much research has illustrated a diversity of attitudes towards the persecution of the Jews (most plainly visible in varied reactions to the promulgation of the Nuremberg Laws in September 1935 and "Kristallnacht" in November 1938). Nevertheless, the Nazis appear to have been successful in establishing, in most people's eyes, that there was a „Jewish Question“, and in deepening the anti-Jewish feeling at the time that the external threat of imminent war was growing.

The Führer Myth: How Hitler Won Over the German People - SPIEGEL ONLINE

This is the opinion of ONE PERSON supported by NO measurement of any kind other than personal observation of selective historical .

Do have anything like I provided - measurable data from the German people?
 
Asked and answered.

I have seen nothing from me which is any verifiable measurement of MAJORITY support from the German people from Hitler because you have not provided any.
 

You're making it seem like a matter of rationality vs. irrationality but it's not.

To the contrary, this discussion should be inundated with rational thought. Reason should not be dispensed with in this dialogue.

You need to tone it down a notch and cut it with the superiority complex.

Spare me this BS claim.

This is hardly a scientific debate with absolute right or wrong. It's about values. Different cultures, different values.

No, the dialogue is and should be about reasoning and evidence. Yes, different cultures and varying values exist but this is not an impediment to ascertaining which values are more reasonable than other values, an exercise long engaged in by people.

My values and beliefs are that society functions better when hate speech is limited.

Precisely! This is your point. Sacrifice freedom in exchange for the promise of a society operating "better." This is an intoxicating principle. How many societies, people, nations, were induced to surrendering their freedom for the promise of a society "functioning better"? Did they indeed "function better"?

You assume if hate speech is eliminated then "society functions better." You have not cited to any evidence to support such a claim. Indeed, a legitimate query is whether "society functions better" is so ambiguous as to defy any rational attempt of find supporting evidence.
 
I am fully in favor of giving them zero air time. Take away their voice and you take away a great deal of their power and influence. I shouldn't have to turn on the TV and hear some bigoted nazi talk about his values because of some delusional idea of free speech and equality. I love Canada because the culture here has decided that we can make one exception to free speech because we all agree that hate speech is sub-human and not equal to anything civilized.

There's is absolutely no benefit to allowing hate marches to take place. None.

To the contrary, there is a significant benefit. First, it alerts larger society to the existence of these people with extreme views. This permits society to coalesce in a countermovement that marginalizes and excludes this movement from mainstream society. Second, it affords larger society to public denounce the movement, the people, and their beliefs, which is important to minimizing those people participating in a "hate march." Third, it educates the successive generations of the deplorable and rejected views of those engaged in hate speech and perpetuates for future generations the marginalization of those groups. This results in the group and people with these views lacking "power and influence."

and vulnerable groups who are on the receiving end of that hate have to be exposed to that crap.

What "crap" are they receiving? It is words! WORDS! This is not an instance of hate speech inflicting serious bodily injury on them or their property. It is just words! The "crap" is just words. Having to hear unpleasant speech, distasteful speech, speech one finds unpalatable, is an inherent part of life! But the speech is not life threatening, the speech is not physically injuring them, the speech is not damaging their property. Yes, living on this planet involves enduring, from time to time, the unfortunate inconvenience of hearing a message/speech one dislikes. The rational reply isn't to censor the message on the basis people have to hear a message they vehemently disagree with.

All they do is stoke anger, hatred and violence

So does other forms of speech. History demonstrates political speech has also resulted in violence. Religious speech has a long history of violence associated with it. Speech which angers people, invokes hatred, is not a proper justification for censoring speech. Those are emotions and a plethora of other kinds of speech, political, religious, etcetera, have also been known to invoke anger and hatred. Very little speech would exist if angering or hatred were not permitted. The "violence" is a result of people choosing how to react to the message. Punish the people choosing to resort to the violence as opposed to silencing the messenger. After all, the people resorting to violence are the ones threatening or engaging in physical harm but the words of the messenger do not.

. Hate groups are a minority but when they come out to march, everyone in the nation has to hear about it. It gets 24/7 media coverage

Yes indeed, but the 24/7 media coverage is precisely and exactly because they are understood as "nuts." The media coverage is not positive. The media coverage is negative. They are portrayed as crazy, illogical, primates, and when they speak they only confirm what is perceived, that they are stupid. This one benefit of allowing them to express their message of hate. They just convince the rest of the world that their views are bankrupt, their ideology irrational, their beliefs illogical, and they are collectively a group of morons. That is a benefit.

Take away their voice and you take away a great deal of their power and influence.

Power and influence? They do not have any power and influence. They cannot possibly be deprived of something they already lack. And why do they lack power and influence? Because their beliefs and views are derided as moronic, illogical, and irrational, and every time they exercise their free speech rights they confirm to the rest of the world their profound stupidity. As a result, society collectively marginalizes them and by doing so, has denied them "power and influence."

If you don't like it, then take your ball and go home

Maybe you should keep your ball and not leave home because your argument favoring the deprivation of a free speech right is not a rational argument at the moment. Your argument can be distilled into three offered justifications for censoring hate speech.

1. The target groups of the hate speech would/could be exposed to speech they find unpleasant.
2. Censoring hate speech deprives the group of "power and influence."
3. Hate and anger

None compelling justification for censoring hate speech for reasons previously noted.
 
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I have seen nothing from you.

I gave you the election results from 1932 which showed conclusively that Hitler and his party were a minority in support from the German people. Perhaps your eyes are closed to reality?

Or perhaps the bitter history between us is so poisoning you that you are unable to take being corrected in your obvious error of wrongly claimed fact that even others have noted.
 
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Post #157

Post 157 is a persons personal opinion about history and there is nothing in that can be verified or checked for accuracy unlike the election results which I cited which prove my point conclusively.

But pray do present any facts that you think are in there one by one and explain how to check it for accuracy.

Can you do that? Will you do that?
 
Post 157 is a persons personal opinion about history and there is nothing in that can be verified or checked for accuracy unlike the election results which I cited which prove my point conclusively.

But pray do present any facts that you think are in there one by one and explain how to check it for accuracy.

Can you do that? Will you do that?

The 1932 election is irrelevant to his popularity in the late 1930s to early 1940s.
 
I gave you the election results from 1932 which showed conclusively that Hitler and his party were a minority in support from the German people. Perhaps your eyes are closed to reality?

Or perhaps the bitter history between us is so poisoning you that you are unable to take being corrected in your obvious error of wrongly claimed fact that even others have noted.

Irrelevant.
 
The 1932 election is irrelevant to his popularity in the late 1930s to early 1940s.

So present some figures which can be verified as to the majority support from Hitler then. So far all you have is one personal opinion article where the conclusions are not at all supported by any data that can be examined or verified.

of course, maybe that is all you have?
 
Irrelevant.

Now I remember why I consider you and your blatantly dishonest and sham tactics not worthy of actual debate.

There is something deeply wrong with your approach here when you cannot even admit a simple mistake that you made because I was the one who spotted it.
 
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Now I remember why I consider you and your blatantly dishonest and sham tactics not worthy of actual debate.

There is something deeply wrong with your approach here when you cannot even admit a simple mistake that you made because I was the one who spotted it.

You have convinced me....

An election in 1932 won by a relative unknown indicates Hitler was not supported by the majority in the 1940s......







Just kidding.

By the HAYMARKET RULE OF POPULARITY:

Richard Nixon was adored as was Lyndon Johnson because of an earlier election.
 
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You have convinced me....

An election in 1932 won by a relative unknown indicates Hitler was not supported by the majority in the 1940s......







Just kidding.

By the HAYMARKET RULE OF POPULARITY:

Richard Nixon was adored as was Lyndon Johnson because of an earlier election.

That makes absolutely no sense as a pretended regulation to my post ..... and that is even giving it lots and lots of leeway knowing that it came from you.

You stated Hitler was supposed by the majority of Germans but the best you could come up with as evidence is an opinion article devoid of any verifiable data suggesting the existence of a real majority. You failed and now you dig for China because your pride cannot take the reality that I corrected you and it was so easy to prove.
 
Now I remember why I consider you and your blatantly dishonest and sham tactics not worthy of actual debate.

There is something deeply wrong with your approach here when you cannot even admit a simple mistake that you made because I was the one who spotted it.

Fully agree with you.
It seems that he is proud of genocides, committed by Jews (according to their holy books), he is hardly ashamed of Nakba, but he whines about "Jewish suffering" and makes blank statements about all Germans.
 
Fully agree with you.
It seems that he is proud of genocides, committed by Jews (according to their holy books), he is hardly ashamed of Nakba, but he whines about "Jewish suffering" and makes blank statements about all Germans.

Where have I stated, inferred or implied I am proud of genocides committed by Jews?

Support or retract.
 
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