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Forced pregnancy is enslavement.[W:607]

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Re: I'm not pro-slavery. Are You?

Are you trying to tell me that I have to believe that either *all* the law is good and just and proper, or *none* of it is? How does that make any sense?

-AJF


Your only support for the first was that women had to accept pregnancy because "it was the law" (they consented to it, you claimed.) So, so is abortion. You are the one that seemed willing to accept law only because it was law. You use ''consent' (the law) as the reason.
 
But a zygote goes through three separate and distinct gestational transformation (so to speak).

Comparing a zygote to a viable fetus/born baby is like comparing a house to a pile of materials. Sure there is bricks, mortar, wood and a whole load of other materials, but chucking them together without the right process does not make that pile of basic building materials a house.
But humans are rarely just "chucked together without the right process". Yes, sometimes defects do occur, but far more commonly, zygotes develop into embryos and fetuses and infants and toddlers and children and adolescents and teenagers and young adults and middle-aged adults and mature adults and elderly adults and old adults. Assuming they don't die somewhere along the way. These are all separate and distinct stages of human development.

But a toddler and a newborn baby have something that a zygote does not have, a functioning higher brain, the ability to be viable and the ability to grow and mature without being attached to the wall of their mother's uterus. And they are the complete product as I just explained above.
And I still have yet to hear a rational explanation why these things are *the* things that should protect a human from being killed by another human. Why don't we toss in the ability to walk to the list, for example?

Yes, it holds the building blocks but until those building blocks are done gestating, a zygote is nothing more than 2 special cells with an special ability. But that does not change it's legal or biological status.
Of course it doesn't. But in the case of the legal status, it *should*.

It has an ability. Eggs, butter, flour, sugar and an oven have the ability to come together and make a delicious cake.
No they don't. They have to be *put* together in the right way by conscious action of a person. A zygote will develop without another human needing to take a single voluntary action.

But you are not going to convince anyone that the eggs, butter, flour, sugar are a finished product with the same properties that a cake has. The same is true for a zygote. Before it even gets close to being a human being with the qualities and properties of a human being, it needs 2 complete make-overs/gestational stages and about 39 weeks of gestating before it is "the finished product".
Nope, because even then it isn't a finished product. A human is *never* a "finished product" until it dies.


(to be continued due to length)

-AJF
 
(continued)

Nobody mixes eggs and butter, cooks it in an oven and pronounces it a cake. Life is more than just genetics and growing abilities. Without a functioning brain cortex, lungs, etc. a fetus will never become viable.
Lucky thing it will usually develop them, given time.

You are of the opinion that even the basic building blocks is equal to the finished product and it should have rights that make it impossible for a woman to have an abortion. I do not see it that way. That is how simple it is.
A zygote is, of course, not just building blocks. In fact, the building blocks aren't even really there yet. A zygote is something much more important, it is the *blueprint*, an *automatic* blueprint - just add the biomass, and it builds itself into a person!

Well, if there is no brain matter than the fetus would not live. The lower brain functions are needed to live. A no brain baby is dead on arrival.
Again, you miss the point.

And I do play fair. If a baby is born with only a lower brain, it is technically a person with personhood rights. Birth does that to a fetus. But that does not change the fact that from a brain birth point of view, this child is an empty shell. Now this will almost never happen, but as said, all of this is dependent on birth and viability.
"Birth does that to a fetus"?!? "Birth" is the process of moving from a woman's womb to outside a woman's womb. That's all, nothing magical. Why does it suddenly confer rights?

Well, because a zygote is not yet a human being.
Didn't say human being, I said human.

Because you have to make a choice, the rights of the mother or the rights of the ZEF. You cannot have both because that would rob women of their right to self determination. A zygote does not have the ability to determine anything. It does not know it exists, if does not have a "self" and is totally and utterly dependent on the blood, oxygen and food from the pregnant woman. After birth it has viability and can be fed by anyone, the mother no longer has a right to determine life or death for that newborn.
So the whole pretense of "viability" and "personhood" and "human being" being the requirements are all just a big construct to create a loophole for killing babies. Gotcha.

But when it is in the womb, and early in the gestational process, it is the woman and only the woman who has the right to decide what happens with her womb, with her body and with her life. The zygote has none of these abilities or rights.
Yes, you keep telling me the present legal state of things. I know the present legal state of things. It's wrong, and I'm interested in changing it.

And I have given you my "true answer" several times. It is none of my business. I want women to have the right to self determination especially when it involves their uterus and their "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".
And it really doesn't matter that a zygote isn't a person, does it? I mean, sure, it helps soothe your (and the woman's) conscience...makes it more palatable. But if it was discovered tomorrow that a zygote *is* a person with thoughts and the ability to suffer, you'd still support a woman's right to abortion, wouldn't you? Because to you, a woman's right to choose whether or not to accept responsibility for her actions trumps everything else. Tell me I'm wrong.

-AJF
 
Re: I'm not pro-slavery. Are You?

But they arent used to claim outlawing abortion is justified when they dont occur due to pregnancy, so arent relavent to the discussion now are they?

You are correct. None of the woes that occur during the nine month pregnancy that you listed are relevant to the discussion.

-AJF
 
Re: I'm not pro-slavery. Are You?

Are you hard of hearing? It is none of my business what a woman decides about her own body. That is between her, her doctor and her conscience.

I do not have the right to be "okay" with it or "support it" or "condone it" because it is none of my business.

I have the right to have an opinion, and if I would be a woman I would act upon that opinion. But I am not a woman. I am not a woman who makes that decision.

It is her womb, her life and her decision. I do not have the right to condone, support or agree with it because it is no my body and none of my business.

Hope that clarifies it for you.

Not my womb, none of my business.
Wow. Pretty sick, dude. It is the business of normal people to prevent heinous acts. What I have described is a series of such heinous acts.

-AJF
 
Re: I'm not pro-slavery. Are You?

Men are 50% responsible for the creation of that kid, and are responsible for child support if it is born, and yet have 0% say in whether or not it gets aborted.

-AJF

They also have zero say in if the woman dies or has major health damage due to pregnancy and childbirth, nor do they share in those risks. . Nor any of the financial or professional or educational consequences during pregnancy. They only pay if and after there's a kid because they have no right to infringe on a woman's rights to decide what she does before there is a kid. They cannot demand she have an abortion and they cannot demand she stay pregnant...pretty fair, I'd say
 
Re: I'm not pro-slavery. Are You?

You are correct. None of the woes that occur during the nine month pregnancy that you listed are relevant to the discussion.

-AJF

Sick that you dismiss the struggles of women, but you've been doing it for a couple of threads now so it's no surprise.
 
Re: I'm not pro-slavery. Are You?

Nope, none of those are gunshot wounds and not regarded as 'injuries.'

And you accuse me of going off the rails? You're being silly.

-AJF
 
YOu never provided the dictionary definitions where injuries were defined as 'medical procedures.' Dont forget to get back to us with that, as previously ignored.

I'm sorry, you didn't ask for dictionary definitions, you asked me to show you where 'injuries' are medical procedures. I did so.

-AJF
 
I'm sorry, you didn't ask for dictionary definitions, you asked me to show you where 'injuries' are medical procedures. I did so.

-AJF

LOLOLOLOL

Nope, you never did. Didnt show one 'injury' that was a medical procedure. But keep going. This sucker could take on a life of its own.

(LOL and the quote arrows even go back to the thread for context!)
 
No it doesn't. As I understand it, there is usually quite a mess that needs to be cleaned up and disposed of.

Well, then you stand corrected. The zygote itself does not have a "body" when it is aborted due to the morning after pill. 1/3 of all abortions happen in the stage that the zygote has roughly the size of a sesame seed. Pretty sure you do not have a mess cleaning that up. Because the rest of what was attached to the wall of the uterus might have more mass, but the embryo itself does not have that mass. A further 1/3 (approximately) is kidney bean size. Now I do not know what you think of "quite a mess" but the "mess" and what needs to be disposed off regarding fetal material is very very very small in at least 2/3's of all abortions.

Why should those rights be associated with personhood instead of human-ness?

because as said, a zygote is not a human being. And in the US it is associated with personhood because that is due to the constitution and in other countries (like mine) it is because most of us realize that being a human being and zygote is not the same thing and that the rights associated with being a human being is dependent on being an actual human being (and not a zygote/ZEF).

Based on what? Your opinion? Walking upright is a basic part of what it is to be human; it separates us from other primates who often walk on all fours. And yet infants can't walk upright. They are immobile to start, and then walk on all fours. Should we treat them like lower animals, accordingly? Tool-making is a basic part of what it is to be human, and yet, oddly enough, infants can't do that either. Hmm. Maybe infants aren't human after all. The point is, it's not necessary be able to do everything considered intrinsic to humans to be considered human.

Yes, based on my opinion and the opinion of others. Having teeth is not a characteristic of humanity for example. Nor is hair growth etc.

What separates us from lower primates is a whole host of things (having teeth is not one of them), mostly it has to do with our brains and our ability to thinks, reason, etc. etc.

Something that also separates us from zygotes by the way.

Why is that any more radical than, say, learning to walk? Truth be told, these are all just stages of human development. They will all occur if the human is alive and healthy. They won't occur if the human dies, including if it is killed by an abortion.

Well, that is the question isn't it. Why are pro-lifers so hell bent on pronouncing zygotes to be the total package of humanity. Because they want to find an excuse to rob women of the right to decide what happens to in their wombs and to their reproductive rights.

This is not about "the truth" because "the truth" is that this:

e1p_j1_zygote.jpg

is nothing like this

baby_2102889c.jpg

Because the first is a zygote, and the second picture is a human being/person. The first pictures needs gestation and 2 complete overhauls to become something that could grow into picture 2. Picture 2 does not need gestating or complete overhauls to become a grown up, it just needs time to do that.
 
But the oval office has no say in the amendment process.
Certainly it does. The president can certainly spend political capital and influence elected officials.

And you are right, but change is not going into the direction of the conservatives/republicans. More minorities and less and less angry white religious men are the future of America and thus are not in accordance with the current make up of the republican party/conservatism.
The pendulum swings both ways.

-AJF
 
I don't want to interfere into the private lives of other people. I just don't want unborn children to be purposely and premeditatedly killed.

Yes, you do want to interfere in the private decisions that woman get to make. Because to make your "not wanting to allow unborn children to purposely be killed" can only be achieved by interference into someone else's life.

You want to give the government the power to force women into unwanted pregnancies and that is something completely and utterly unacceptable. You would pronounce women to be nothing more than a powerless uterus on legs with no rights of self determination. Destroying what the US is all about

Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Arbitrarily. Personhood is an arbitrary dividing line between no rights and rights.

No, that is a legal opinion based on biological reality.

Sorry, you're just playing word games. Development of humans is a continuous process from conception to death.

No, I am not playing word games. Gestation and after birth growth are not the same thing.

Are you of the opinion that an adult human has a soul? Can you show it to me?

-AJF

I am not sure everyone has a soul. I have a problem finding one in some hatemongers against women (and no, I am not talking about anyone here on this forum/message board or people who want to interfere in the human/constitutional rights of women) whose names are Rush Limbaugh and Ted Nugent ;) (Because I am making a joke/cynical remark). Everybody has a soul who has a functioning higher brain IMHO.

No seriously, a soul is the total make up of a persons personality, experiences, hobbies, interests and mental capacities. All of which start and end with the having of a higher brain waves. That at least is my opinion.
 
Which reasons, and why, specifically? Based on what compelling reasons?
I don't know specifically, that will be up to the justices and court proceedings in question. All I know is that different people have different opinions about things, and that it is well within the Supreme Court's purview to overturn previous decisions.

-AJF
 
I don't know specifically, that will be up to the justices and court proceedings in question. All I know is that different people have different opinions about things, and that it is well within the Supreme Court's purview to overturn previous decisions.

-AJF

So, you dont even have any compelling reasons on which they could reverse their decision for not recognizing rights for the unborn? Because they're not just going waste the court's time and begin court proceedings on 'opinions' that are 'different.'

There ya go. Apparently neither does anyone else. And thus, it's not going to happen.
 
Re: I'm not pro-slavery. Are You?

This does not happen. If so, please provide proof.
It doesn't matter whether or not it actually happens. The facts of the matter are: 1. It *could* happen legally based on the way the laws are written now; and 2. Peter, and presumably *you*, since you haven't condemned it, agree that it is proper and right that it should be allowed to happen.

And 'this does not happen' seemed to be an adequate response from you here, in a much less ridiculous and manufactured scenario:
Whereas, your scenario *can't* happen under current law, or even current law plus an abortion ban. There is no structure in place for it to occur, and it's illegal to boot.

-AJF
 
Re: I'm not pro-slavery. Are You?

Your only support for the first was that women had to accept pregnancy because "it was the law" (they consented to it, you claimed.) So, so is abortion. You are the one that seemed willing to accept law only because it was law. You use ''consent' (the law) as the reason.

No, I didn't.

-AJF
 
And, as we all know, the RCC is just *fine and dandy* with abortion.

There is one word in your first sentence I take exception with: "moral". I would like you to explain to me why an unborn human has no moral right to exist. I say it has a moral right to exist because it is human, it is developing into a person, and it is innocent of any wrongdoing.

There is no moral right to exist for a zygote. Your morals might disagree with that but my morals and the morals of other people see that very differently.

And, just as simply, it *should* not be her right to choose to kill an innocent human.

Which is exactly as I have stated before, you want to interfere with someone else's life, robbing her of her constitutional rights because of your personal religious/non religious views about zygotes.

Also, she is not "killing an innocent human", she is aborting a ZEF.

But of course, it's not about what the zygote can realize. It's about what we as actual people realize: That a zygote is a potential human and killing it in utero snuffs out a lifetime of possibility. And yet many people see no problem with that monstrous act.

-AJF

No, it is about the desire of men to interfere into other people's lives because they have proclaimed zygotes to be human beings at conception. Just because you have a personal and very subjective view is no reason to rob women of their constitutional and moral right to self determination.

And if there is one monstrous act, then it is forcing women into unwanted pregnancies because someone else thinks he has the right to dictate to women what they can and cannot do.
 
Re: I'm not pro-slavery. Are You?

It doesn't matter whether or not it actually happens. The facts of the matter are: 1. It *could* happen legally based on the way the laws are written now; and 2. Peter, and presumably *you*, since you haven't condemned it, agree that it is proper and right that it should be allowed to happen.


Whereas, your scenario *can't* happen under current law, or even current law plus an abortion ban. There is no structure in place for it to occur, and it's illegal to boot.

-AJF

So could RM's scenario. Apparently, if a hypothetical is determined to be a total ridiculous fantasy with no foundation in reality, it doesnt need to be addressed.

By the standard in your scenario, no American would be able to own a gun. Sorry....yours has no basis in reality nor would it sway legal decisions if it did.
 
Re: I'm not pro-slavery. Are You?

They also have zero say in if the woman dies or has major health damage due to pregnancy and childbirth, nor do they share in those risks. . Nor any of the financial or professional or educational consequences during pregnancy. They only pay if and after there's a kid because they have no right to infringe on a woman's rights to decide what she does before there is a kid. They cannot demand she have an abortion and they cannot demand she stay pregnant...pretty fair, I'd say

If paternity is established - or if the man is the woman's husband and paternity is not *disproven* - he shares prenatal financial responsibility.

-AJF
 
Re: I'm not pro-slavery. Are You?

No, I didn't.

-AJF

Hey, just see my sig in green....it's there for everyone to see. You saying 'na huh' doesnt really matter. I nullified that point of your argument.
 
Re: I'm not pro-slavery. Are You?

Wow. Pretty sick, dude. It is the business of normal people to prevent heinous acts. What I have described is a series of such heinous acts.

-AJF

No, what is sick is the notion/idea/believe that it is your right to decide what women should be allowed to do and what they should not be allowed to do.
 
Re: I'm not pro-slavery. Are You?

Sick that you dismiss the struggles of women, but you've been doing it for a couple of threads now so it's no surprise.

Hey, I was agreeing with your statement.

-AJF
 
LOLOLOLOL

Nope, you never did. Didnt show one 'injury' that was a medical procedure. But keep going. This sucker could take on a life of its own.

(LOL and the quote arrows even go back to the thread for context!)
Abortion injures the unborn. Assisted suicide injures the person committing suicide. Euthanasia injures the person or animal being put down. How can you even dispute these?

-AJF
 
Re: I'm not pro-slavery. Are You?

If paternity is established - or if the man is the woman's husband and paternity is not *disproven* - he shares prenatal financial responsibility.

-AJF

That's not common...where does that happen in the US? It happens in divorces when the couple splits while there's a pregnancy. I havent heard of other cases but even so, I'm not sure how that matters if the killing of the unborn is right or wrong? If the man had more say in the decision, would abortion for *his convenience* be ok?
 
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