Florida declares emergency over white supremacist event

[faithful_servant]

I'm Canadian, can't speak to what the American Left does or doesn't do. As for me, I wouldn't want a single penny of my money going to enabling a hate group to be heard.

I do find it interesting, though, that a member of the American Right (apparently) seems to think it's right to force a university to subsidize political activism that instigates violence, to the point where the Governor is declaring a state of emergency. Don't tell me you're becoming a socialist! :lol:

But maybe I'm wrong, being a foreigner and all...perhaps you can point to the part in the 1st amendment where it states that a citizens right to free speech includes a huge subsidy to pay for a security force when their messaging is so disgraceful and offensive as to incite and inspire violence.

Freedom of speech isn't only realized through rallies on university campuses...to me that's the kicker. They can enjoy their 1st amendment rights by writing a book, meeting on private land, creating a webpage, etc. They are choosing to be "in-your-face". Why should you, or the university, or anyone else who utterly despises their messaging have to pay for their freedom to spread it? Isn't the freedom to spread it the only obligation they are owed under the 1st amendment? If there are other ways to enjoy their freedom of speech that won't bring down violence on their heads, or on the property of anyone else, should anyone have to pay because they choose to use their 1st amendment rights in the most confrontational way possible? It's not as if this is unforeseeable.

Putting the disclaimer at the bottom, just so you understand where I'm coming from...I don't agree with AntiFa's methodology of violence, this has nothing to do with supporting it. I put this in the same category of those folks who believe that American citizens shouldn't expect rescue when they travel abroad to places everyone knows kidnaps Americans, or climbs a mountain they shouldn't be climbing, or any other dumbass thing that people are totally free to do, but probably shouldn't. You have the right to do the things you want to do, if that right is expressed, but you must also be prepared to pay for the consequences of using that right. That seems to be the American stance on most other things...

I believe that any public entity has a RESPONSIBILITY to protect the rights of our citizens. These WP ball sweat suckers have a CONSTITUTIONALLY guaranteed right to speak in public and our public officials have the responsibility to protect that right. I'd prefer that these 20W bulbs find deep hole to crawl into and die there, but that doesn't mean that I'm willing to deprive them of their legal rights or to allow anyone else to do so.

 

[faithful_servant]

Apparently some people wallow in ignorance. I believe most of us recognize a cause and effect relationship between Hate Speech and violence.

Faithful Servant has argued that the University of Florida has a lawful duty to not only rent space to Spencer's group, but also pay any ancillary costs to maintain peace. Faithful Servant has implied the University of Florida rented the same space to left wing groups and paid similar costs to maintain peace. I challenged him to identity those groups and to tell us when those events took place. Can you help him answer my questions?

Nope. Never implied that at all... The UF has allowed other groups to meet there and so they are required by law to allow the WP jock gnawers to do the same. They have a responsibility to protect their right to free speech and we should be demanding that anyone who would deprive them of that right be arrested and charged with Fed. civil rights violations.

 

[Paperview]

Beating people with clubs, bats, shooting guns at people and running people over with cars is violence. You've ignored all of these instances and labeled the blame 100% on some ambiguous "antifa". The nazis have plenty of blame for the violence in Charlottesville. You don't show up to a protest armed to the teeth with weapons in peace. If only you defended the people protesting nazis as much as you defend the nazis.

Not from this thread, or this upcoming event, but based on events / rhetoric building the last six months or so, and the commentary and reactions of the growing swell of the alt-righters...

If you ever wondered how regular folks could stand by and watch Germany descend into Nazism, well, gather it in.

We're soaking in it.

 

[holbritter]

Meanwhile, the Nazis are actually, you now, killing people.

People? As in plural? When and where? I haven't heard.

 

[lurchadams]

Human trash like Spencer know their words are offensive to kids on college campuses. The only reason these scum book these events is the possibility violence breaks out. That way these pukes can play victim and inspire sympathy for their pathetic causes.

Instead of anti-protesting these ****heads let them have their little events and let them show up to an empty venue. Sane, reasonable, and enlightened people should consider that a win for themselves.

 

[Fletch]

Have you ever met a pigeon that plays a good game of chess? Pigeons tend to crap a lot and strut around squawking. If you have any pigeon-like qualities, you show no hit of knowing it.

Maybe you have the patience to listen to the Spencer speech I posted. Do you a tiki lantern you could loan me?



View attachment 67224019

You seem to be resorting to name calling and irrelevant pics rather than posting a substantive reply. I am not defending Spencer or his kind in the least. You don't seem to grasp that. So if this conversation is over your head then so be it.

 

[faithful_servant]

Doh! Oh what a grin! I have thought this through. I posted a campus map, specifically to identify the location of the Phillips Center. I grew up in Florida, live in Florida and have a long and storied history with the University of Florida. You do know, in spite of the possibility of ensuing violence, ultimately, probably to avoid protracted litigation, the University of Florida rented the Phillips Center to Spencer's group.

I have promoted and funded maybe as many as 15 Special Events in Sarasota County and Manatee County in Florida. Each time I pulled a permit with a County Government, I had to demonstrate feasibility with regard to parking, public safety, security and compliance with applicable law. The issuing agencies would not have granted me a permit if a government entity anticipated massive law enforcement expenses shouldered by government and not by me (the Promoter).

So all I have to shut you down is make security massively expensive and you lose your civil rights. I just have to make security so expensive that you can't afford to have your opinion heard. Is that what you want?? Do want people to be able to silence the opposition by committing what is essentially and act of economic terrorism. For example: You want to speak out against the practice of dying dogs blue and I own "Blue Dog Spa", a shop which specializes in dying dogs blue. You decide to hold an anti-blue dog rally and I make it known that I and every one of my blue dog loving friends (which number in the thousands and are EXTREMELY passionate about their blue dogs) are going to riot in the streets. Now, BY YOUR LOGIC, you have to come with the cost of stopping my Blue Dog Army from rioting. That's the kind of world you are supporting. MOB RULE!!!

 

[holbritter]

I don't support anyone using violence and condemn it on both sides. You on the other hand refuse to even admit the nazis committed a lot of violence in Charlottesville and came prepared specifically armed to hurt people. Are you so ****ing stuck in your hyper-partisan straight jacket that you can't even admit the nazis played a role in the violence as well?

What did Antifa come with? Pillows?

 

[OlNate]

The university has to pay because a bunch of leftist douchebags are committed to violence.

I dont give a **** about 'white supremacists'. Recently, we have had several threads and a bunch of news articles giving a massive public spotlight to handful of impotent douchebags. How stupid is it that people are creating these pathetic tiki torch carrying jagoffs into smoe sort of real threat. Face it...if Spence went to UCF and gave his little speecha nd no one gave a **** about him...no one would give a **** about him. But instead people want to turn this into a violent leftist media feeding frenzy. ****ing brilliant. Why should the University pay? Who is the threat?

Hey...I agree, it's a mess. And I don't support AntiFa or white supremacists - heck, I'd be all for creating a nice little Hunger Games for them to sort their stuff out in. But as such, the question remains, why should you or I pay, from our tax dollars, to support either? I'd feel exactly the same if there was a Left leaning organization who's message inspired counter violence. The fact is, freedom of speech can be enjoyed in many different venues - and here's where you can help me out, because I'm confused - why should we be forced to pay for the venues that require such substantial security costs? If it is that important to the cause that they pick the venues where they are guaranteed counter violence, shouldn't it also be important enough for them to raise the funds to do so safely and without resulting in property damage or innocent folks being hurt? And if they can't, is their message important or supported enough to warrant whatever venue they like?

Don't think I don't see the other side...I do. But when you're dealing with two organizations (albeit, one significantly larger and more able to mess with the other) that seem to want to do everything they can to get in each other's faces, how is that my, or your, problem? Maybe I'm too much of a dad...it's so much easier dealing with kids: "Ok, if you can't play nicely together, you can't play at all, you go home and you go to your room".

 

[faithful_servant]

Beating people with clubs, bats, shooting guns at people and running people over with cars is violence. You've ignored all of these instances and labeled the blame 100% on some ambiguous "antifa". The nazis have plenty of blame for the violence in Charlottesville. You don't show up to a protest armed to the teeth with weapons in peace. If only you defended the people protesting nazis as much as you defend the nazis.

..and in almost every case it was in response to to Antifa... If you take Antifa and its violence out of the picture, suddenly there's no issue. It's just a handful of low IQ dung beetles gathering together to roll up balls pf poop. But once you add in Antifa, now it becomes a violent situation. These WP crotch crickets have been holding these kind of rallies for decades without this kind of response, so what's changed?? I'll tell you want's changed - there is a group of people who now think that it's OK for them to use violence to shut down offensive ideas. That is what you are supporting when defend them. You are supporting the use of violence to rob someone of their civil rights.

 

[Paperview]

...we should be demanding that anyone who would deprive them of that right be arrested and charged with Fed. civil rights violations.

When did the University of Florida use or threaten violence against Spencer?

 

[faithful_servant]

I don't support anyone using violence and condemn it on both sides. You on the other hand refuse to even admit the nazis committed a lot of violence in Charlottesville and came prepared specifically armed to hurt people. Are you so ****ing stuck in your hyper-partisan straight jacket that you can't even admit the nazis played a role in the violence as well?

How many rallies have the WP poop stains held without violence?? I'll bet that if you were take the time, you'd find it numbers in the hundreds. So the new variable is Antifa. Without Antifa, they are nothing more than a bunch of streaks in the underwear of our society, but it's Antifa who's changed things. THEY are the ones at fault for the violence, not the WP stains. Being ready for violence when there is both history and threats to carry it out is common sense. Again, take away Antifa and they show up with their favorite butt plugs to pass around, but ad in Antifa and now they are supplementing their butt plugs with baseball bats.

 

[faithful_servant]

When did the University of Florida use or threaten violence against Spencer?

I never said that it did. I was referring to Antifa and Friends. Try to keep up....

 

[OlNate]

I believe that any public entity has a RESPONSIBILITY to protect the rights of our citizens. These WP ball sweat suckers have a CONSTITUTIONALLY guaranteed right to speak in public and our public officials have the responsibility to protect that right. I'd prefer that these 20W bulbs find deep hole to crawl into and die there, but that doesn't mean that I'm willing to deprive them of their legal rights or to allow anyone else to do so.

Just so you know, you got the like because of the delightful creativity with which you dissed both sides, I gotta give props where props are do... lolz

I guess at the end of the day it is what it is...that's about as close to a concession as you're likely to get from me. I don't understand why these guys deserve your support, since they use their constitutionally guaranteed right to crybully their way into the public psyche, while at the same time I'm vexed by Left leaning extremists, however well intentioned, who guarantee that these scum will continue to get press because they can't be more creative with their counter protests than using their fists (with a ripping sentence like in the quote, you should hire yourself out as a consultant...hehe). It would bother me tremendously that I have to foot the bill for any of this nonsense...to the point that I would consider it prudent to shut the whole circus down, and let them find a less destructive way to enjoy their first amendment rights, given the unprecedented number of ways they can do so in today's day and age. It's a damn mess, and somehow it's been politicized, which means there will never be a consensus in the near future. It's just one more useless thing hurting you guys, and I guess my un-American-ness makes it difficult for me to understand why "the rest of you", regardless of your political lean, tolerate it.

 

[Chillfolks]

Hey...I agree, it's a mess... EDIT FOR SPACE Maybe I'm too much of a dad...it's so much easier dealing with kids: "Ok, if you can't play nicely together, you can't play at all, you go home and you go to your room".

Simply because those groups have a right to speak and those tax dollars are being used to protect that right instead of asking those groups to pay for the right.

 

[VanceMack]

Hey...I agree, it's a mess. And I don't support AntiFa or white supremacists - heck, I'd be all for creating a nice little Hunger Games for them to sort their stuff out in. But as such, the question remains, why should you or I pay, from our tax dollars, to support either? I'd feel exactly the same if there was a Left leaning organization who's message inspired counter violence. The fact is, freedom of speech can be enjoyed in many different venues - and here's where you can help me out, because I'm confused - why should we be forced to pay for the venues that require such substantial security costs? If it is that important to the cause that they pick the venues where they are guaranteed counter violence, shouldn't it also be important enough for them to raise the funds to do so safely and without resulting in property damage or innocent folks being hurt? And if they can't, is their message important or supported enough to warrant whatever venue they like?

Don't think I don't see the other side...I do. But when you're dealing with two organizations (albeit, one significantly larger and more able to mess with the other) that seem to want to do everything they can to get in each other's faces, how is that my, or your, problem? Maybe I'm too much of a dad...it's so much easier dealing with kids: "Ok, if you can't play nicely together, you can't play at all, you go home and you go to your room".

If subject A is standing on a corner legally, being a dick...legally...then subject a is acting within his rights...even if he is being a dick. If however subject B and a collective of his douchebag friends object to Subject A and threaten a riot...the responsibility does not rest with subject A...it rests with subject B.

 

[Lursa]

It's just a handful of low IQ dung beetles gathering together to roll up balls pf poop.

:lamo :golf

 

[OlNate]

If subject A is standing on a corner legally, being a dick...legally...then subject a is acting within his rights...even if he is being a dick. If however subject B and a collective of his douchebag friends object to Subject A and threaten a riot...the responsibility does not rest with subject A...it rests with subject B.

See, and that seems terribly messed up to me. Maybe I'm getting old...but being a dick used to be rewarded with a punch in the nose, and not everyone might necessarily have been the type to deliver that punch in the nose, but they all said "Well, he had it coming to him". Then again, they would say it about the other guy doing the punching if it didn't work out so great for him as well. But nobody would be hiring body guards so that both sides could be dicks safely. I've been at fight scenes where the cops showed up, heard a story about two dicks fighting, and doing pretty good damage to each other as well, and got in their car and left. Ah, the good old days. Now get off mah lawn.

 

[VanceMack]

See, and that seems terribly messed up to me. Maybe I'm getting old...but being a dick used to be rewarded with a punch in the nose, and not everyone might necessarily have been the type to deliver that punch in the nose, but they all said "Well, he had it coming to him". Then again, they would say it about the other guy doing the punching if it didn't work out so great for him as well. But nobody would be hiring body guards so that both sides could be dicks safely. I've been at fight scenes where the cops showed up, heard a story about two dicks fighting, and doing pretty good damage to each other as well, and got in their car and left. Ah, the good old days. Now get off mah lawn.

I'm gathering you dont understand the concept of 'Right'.

Lets see if I can help...



If that doesnt do it...I give up. If after viewing that you still have the belief that adults have less responsibility for their feeeeeelings than a ****ing 3 year old....theres nothing more I can say.

 

[Lursa]

See, and that seems terribly messed up to me. Maybe I'm getting old...but being a dick used to be rewarded with a punch in the nose, and not everyone might necessarily have been the type to deliver that punch in the nose, but they all said "Well, he had it coming to him".

True.

The right to Free Speech protects the govt from stopping peaceful protests...but not other groups from stopping them. Or shouting them down. Or countering their arguments.

It's when it turns into assault that the legal line is broken. And thus, IMO, the gray area where govt $ is needed to preserve public property, public safety, and the protesters.

OK, I just stated the obvious. Felt the need, lo siento.

 

[Trippy Trekker]

I have a pragmatic stance given the history of Spencer fomenting violent confrontation and my intimate firsthand experience with the University of Florida. You, on the other hand, based on some sort of nebulous ideological grounds, dismiss the details and ancillary costs.

Arguing with Ridiculous reminds me of playing chess with Pigeon. Okay... you win!

You seem to be resorting to name calling and irrelevant pics rather than posting a substantive reply. I am not defending Spencer or his kind in the least. You don't seem to grasp that. So if this conversation is over your head then so be it.

Fletch, did you miss Post #50, where I acknowledge you won this debate? If, in fact, you made crystal clear principled points in your argument, I concede again. This conversation just might exceed my intellectual capacity, thus your points seemed awfully nebulous to me. I really did think Richard Spencer made that speech and had something to do with organizing that nighttime protest in a park. My bad!

 

[Fletch]

Fletch, did you miss Post #50, where I acknowledge you won this debate? If, in fact, you made crystal clear principled points in your argument, I concede again. This conversation just might exceed my intellectual capacity, thus your points seemed awfully nebulous to me. I really did think Richard Spencer made that speech and had something to do with organizing that nighttime protest in a park. My bad!

I wasn't actually trying to win anything, I was trying to have a discussion. My bad.

 

[OlNate]

I'm gathering you dont understand the concept of 'Right'.

Lets see if I can help...



If that doesnt do it...I give up. If after viewing that you still have the belief that adults have less responsibility for their feeeeeelings than a ****ing 3 year old....theres nothing more I can say.

lol...ok, I did chuckle at the video, and believe me, I get the point of it... I mean, I tend to think it's better to go through life doing your best not to piss people off for no good reason, but I also know that's my decision, and not one that everyone else has to follow. And I don't think the these arse licks should be prevented from speaking. I just don't know why you, VanceMack, should have to pay for their ability to do so. $500 000 seems like a lot of money that could be spent a lot better than protecting the rights of people to talk the kind of trash these white supremacists do for one night.

But... At the end of the day I get to take a deep breath, shake my head, and be glad AF I live up here where I don't have to see my tax dollars go to protect hate speech. I'm ok with trading a bit of my "freedom" for a couple basic standards in our idea of free speech.

 

[Port & Starboard]

Not a word of condemnation for White Supremacists, I see.

Did you bother reading the 5 posts before yours?

 

[Trippy Trekker]

I have a pragmatic stance given the history of Spencer fomenting violent confrontation and my intimate firsthand experience with the University of Florida. You, on the other hand, based on some sort of nebulous ideological grounds, dismiss the details and ancillary costs.

Arguing with Ridiculous reminds me of playing chess with Pigeon. Okay... you win!

So all I have to shut you down is make security massively expensive and you lose your civil rights. I just have to make security so expensive that you can't afford to have your opinion heard. Is that what you want?? Do want people to be able to silence the opposition by committing what is essentially and act of economic terrorism. For example: You want to speak out against the practice of dying dogs blue and I own "Blue Dog Spa", a shop which specializes in dying dogs blue. You decide to hold an anti-blue dog rally and I make it known that I and every one of my blue dog loving friends (which number in the thousands and are EXTREMELY passionate about their blue dogs) are going to riot in the streets. Now, BY YOUR LOGIC, you have to come with the cost of stopping my Blue Dog Army from rioting. That's the kind of world you are supporting. MOB RULE!!!

Thank you! Your POV furthers my insight into how Hitler rose to power.