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Five Cuban rafters die at sea in attempt to leave country

According to the mainstream media, Cuba is great place to live. They said that people there have great education and healthcare systems. If that is the case, why are they leaving in such great numbers? Progressives that like the Castroit regime so much, should leave for Cuba and live there. Free education and healthcare, and a ration food book. They would love it.

Which mainstream media say Cuba is a great place to live? Get real. If Cuba has good health care, good for them. Has little to do with whether it’s a good place to live. What’s the health care like in Bolivia?
 
Which mainstream media say Cuba is a great place to live? Get real. If Cuba has good health care, good for them. Has little to do with whether it’s a good place to live. What’s the health care like in Bolivia?
Are you leaving for Cuba or Bolivia? You will love it.
 
Are you leaving for Cuba or Bolivia? You will love it.

No offense, but how does that relate to my post. Never said I would move to either place. Though I found La Paz beautiful, people wonderful.
 
According to the mainstream media, Cuba is great place to live. They said that people there have great education and healthcare systems. If that is the case, why are they leaving in such great numbers? Progressives that like the Castroit regime so much, should leave for Cuba and live there. Free education and healthcare, and a ration food book. They would love it.

Cuba would be a great place to live if it weren't for the USA's vicious century plus long genocidal actions, war crimes, terrorism against the Cuban people.

What can a tiny country do when they have the world's largest gangster organization terrorizing them?

Surely, USians can't like living in the vicious propaganda mill that is the USA!!

"It is time, now, for us to leave the past behind," Obama insisted.

Pure US bull****, Obama!

The U.S. has terrorized Cuba for over 50 years

Fidel Castro is right to be wary of Obama’s claims
Since the 1959 revolution the U.S. has invaded Cuba, tried assassinations, imposed an embargo & harbored terrorists

...

Pundits portrayed Castro's comments as a sign of supposed ill will and ingratitude. But an objective look at the history shows that his response was not only wholly justified; it was frankly quite mild.

For the crimes — and there is no question that they are crimes — the U.S. has repeatedly and continuously committed against its sovereign neighbor over the past five decades include:

*a violent invasion that left hundreds dead
*more than 600 assassination attempts
*myriad covert campaigns dedicated to fomenting "hunger, desperation and overthrow of government"
*the unilateral imposition of a suffocating embargo
and the harboring of CIA-trained admitted terrorists who murdered Cuban civilians in hopes of toppling the socialist state.

https://www.salon.com/2016/03/30/th..._castro_is_right_to_be_wary_of_obamas_claims/
 
lMany refugees have crossed the border into Manitoba after having trudged miles through freezing winter conditions, several loosing fingers to frostbite, to escape the US.
What's your point?
This is my point: Rafters’ death toll is extremely high. The estimate number of the victims was derived by Dr. Armando Lago econometric research from data in studies by the Oceanographic Institute of the University of Miami and the University of Havana, and reports by the U.S. Coast Guard.

The estimate number of Cuban rafters attempting to escape from 1959 to 2016 surpass 240,000. The U.S. Coast Guard estimates that only one in four rafters who have attempted to escape from the island, mostly by sea in small boats and makeshift rafts keep afloat by using inner tubes and disregards tires as floating devises, has been successful, about 60,000; another 35% have been captured, over 84,000, and many of them send back, and 40%, more than 96,000, have died at sea attempting to escape.
 
Why didn't Fowler point out in the article the war crimes, the terrorism, the stealing of the Cuban people's wealth by the uSA, the grand folks who sought to give liberty to Filipinos, Cubans, ... from Spain and ended up raping and pillaging just like Spain?.
You should contact Fowler directly and ask him about your beef, instead of rambling.
 
Look, am not an admirer of Castro. Worked with many Cuban refugees back in the day. But people leaving the island are essentially no different than Haitians fleeing poverty or Central Americans fleeing gang violence, except that Cubans are by law guaranteed resettlement in the US, or at least they used to be. Guarantee the same benefits to, say, Dominicans and watch that country empty.
When you write about the Cubans rafter escaping from the island you say, “people leaving the island”, not escaping, a big difference with respect to Haitians and Central Americans “fleeing” their countries. After all the theme of this thread is about Cuban rafters escaping from the Castroit regime and dying at sea.

Which mainstream media say Cuba is a great place to live? Get real. If Cuba has good health care, good for them. Has little to do with whether it’s a good place to live. What’s the health care like in Bolivia?
Just google MSM like New York Times, Washington Post, BBC, CNN, NBC and other about Cuba’s education and healthcare free systems and you will get the answers. The point that I made was that lefties praise the Castroit regime system but don’t want to move there.

No offense, but how does that relate to my post. Never said I would move to either place. Though I found La Paz beautiful, people wonderful.
No offence, I believe my answer relate to your post. I did not say “move”, I said leaving. You brought Bolivia into the subject. After all you acknowledge leaving for Bolivia and vising La Paz.
 
Cuba would be a great place to live if it weren't for the USA's vicious century plus long genocidal actions, war crimes, terrorism against the Cuban people.

What can a tiny country do when they have the world's largest gangster organization terrorizing them?
Cuba would be a great place to live if it weren't for the Castroit Tyrannical regime genocidal actions against the Cuban people.

The July 6, 1980 Canimar River Massacre
http://cubaarchive.org/files/Canimar-Massacre-7.1.2017.pdf

71 killed for attempting to flee Cuba
Update of July 1, 2017

In 1980, a tourist excursion service was inaugurated using the "XX Aniversario," a large boat with two decks of chairs and capacity for around one hundred passengers. It was to navigate for around five miles inland along the scenic Canimar river, that flows into Matanzas Bay, near Varadero beach.

Leaving Cuba was almost impossible for average Cubans; since the revolution came to power two decades earlier, it had been strictly controlled by the government. On 6 July, 1980, the excursion boat was hijacked by three youngsters seeking to flee Cuba for the United States –Roberto Calbeiro León (15) and the brothers Silvio Aguila Yanes (18) and Sergio Aguila Yanes (19). Sergio was in the Cuban Armed Forces doing his obligatory military service and had taken several firearms for the hijacking.
Click link above for full article.
This is one of the heinous atrocities committed by the Castroit regime in its 60 years of human right violations. This illustrate the regime total disregard for human lives and fundamental freedoms. The right to leave and return to one’s own country, have been denied to most Cubans. In this case the regime assassinated the Cubans who attempted to escape the island, including women and children.

The involvement of the Castroit regime higher authorities in the crime, was corroborate by the promotion of Julian Rizo Alvarez, Secretary of the Communist party in Matanzas, who gave the order to machine-gun, was promoted 5 months later to Secretary of the Communist Party at a national level.
 
When you write about the Cubans rafter escaping from the island you say, “people leaving the island”, not escaping, a big difference with respect to Haitians and Central Americans “fleeing” their countries. After all the theme of this thread is about Cuban rafters escaping from the Castroit regime and dying at sea.

Just google MSM like New York Times, Washington Post, BBC, CNN, NBC and other about Cuba’s education and healthcare free systems and you will get the answers. The point that I made was that lefties praise the Castroit regime system but don’t want to move there.

No offence, I believe my answer relate to your post. I did not say “move”, I said leaving. You brought Bolivia into the subject. After all you acknowledge leaving for Bolivia and vising La Paz.

My point is that not all Cubans are “escaping” any more than all Central Americans are leaving voluntarily. In Mexico last summer I met with Honduran and Salvadoran youth running from drug gangs that control much of the country. Told they had 72 hours to join a gang or be killed, they were “escaping” too, many to find work in northern Mexico. If they had the promise of a green card, not only the youth would leave. Funny, some of the people I met through the years who worked with Central Americans were Cuban refugees or children of the same. Their parents taught them well.

As to the media praising Cuban health care or education, if their health care or education is better than others in Latin America,they deserve praise, just as they deserve condemnation for imprisoning dissenters. Being fair and balanced, I am sure FOX, an outlet you didn’t mention, would probably cover both sides of the question as I just did.
 
Cuba would be a great place to live if it weren't for the Castroit Tyrannical regime genocidal actions against the Cuban people.

For the last 1/4 century, every year, the entire world, in the UNGA, has been condeming the USA for its terrorism against Cuba. The vote has always been pretty much 198 to 2, with the USA and Israel being the 2.

Vicious terrorism, repeated assassination attempts, genocidal actions, the usual US treatment for countries that don't allow their people and wealth to be raped and pillaged.

U.S. Aggression & Propaganda Against Cuba
Why the unrelieved U.S. antagonism toward Cuba?
by Michael Parenti

...

For over four decades Washington policymakers have treated Cuba with unrelieved antagonism. U.S. rulers and their faithful acolytes in the major media have propagated every sort of misrepresentation to mislead the world as regards their policy of aggression toward Cuba. Why?

Defending Global Capitalism
in June 1959, some five months after the triumph of the Cuban Revolution, the Havana government promulgated an agrarian reform law that provided for state appropriation of large private landholdings. Under this law, U.S. sugar corporations eventually lost about 1,666,000 acres of choice land and many millions of dollars in future cash-crop exports. The following year, President Dwight Eisenhower, citing Havana's "hostility" toward the United States, cut Cuba's sugar quota by about 95 percent, in effect imposing a total boycott on publicly produced Cuban sugar. Three months later, in October 1959, the Cuban government nationalized all banks and large commercial and industrial enterprises, including the many that belonged to U.S. firms.

Cuba's move away from a free-market system dominated by U.S. firms and toward a not-for-profit socialist economy caused it to become the target of an unremitting series of attacks perpetrated by the U.S. national security state. These attacks included U.S.-sponsored sabotage, espionage, terrorism, hijackings, trade sanctions, embargo, and outright invasion. The purpose behind this aggression was to undermine the Revolution and deliver Cuba safely back to the tender mercies of global capitalism.

U.S. Aggression & Propaganda Against Cuba Why the unrelieved U.S. antagonism toward Cuba? by Michael Parenti
 
Thread opened 7 years ago.

Talk about zombies.

Sent from Donald Trump's Twitter account using Vladimir Putin's computer.
 
If you don't want to die at sea, don't go out to sea.
 
For the last 1/4 century, every year, the entire world, in the UNGA, has been condeming the USA for its terrorism against Cuba. The vote has always been pretty much 198 to 2, with the USA and Israel being the 2.

Vicious terrorism, repeated assassination attempts, genocidal actions, the usual US treatment for countries that don't allow their people and wealth to be raped and pillaged.
For the last 59 years innocents victims of barbaric acts, men, women and children have been murderer the Castroit tyrannical regime.
Cuba: On the 20th anniversary of the tugboat massacre
Cuba: On the 20th aniversary of the tugboat massacre - Misceláneas de Cuba

Maria C. Werlau
Directora Ejecutiva de la organización de derechos humanos sin fines de lucro Cuba Archive

remolcador-13-de-marzo.gif

Victims of the Tugboat. Photo: courtesy of Cubanet.org

Summit, New Jersey. Among the most flagrant atrocities committed by the Castro regime in its long history of human rights’ abuses, two incidents stand out that took place in the month of July —the Canimar River Massacre of 1980 and the Tugboat Massacre of 1994. Perpetrated by the Cuban regime still in power, they illustrate its profound disregard for human life and fundamental freedoms. On this anniversary, we remember the victims —their tragic loss is compounded by the continued impunity the Cuban dictatorship enjoys for these and many other crimes against humanity.

On July 13, 1994, a group of around seventy family members and friends boarded the tugboat “13 de Marzo” in the middle of the night hoping to escape to the United States. As they made their way out of Havana’s harbor, three tugboats that had been waiting in the dark took up a chase. Soon, they began to relentlessly spray the boat with high-pressure water jets, ripping children from their parents’ arms and sweeping passengers off to sea. Finally, the tugboat was rammed to make it sink. Passengers who had taken refuge in the cargo hold were pinned down; they desperately pounded on the walls and the children wailed in horror as the boat sank and they all drowned. The three pursuing tugboats circled around survivors who clung to life, creating wave turbulence to make them drown. The attack stopped suddenly, apparently to conceal the crime, when a merchant ship with a Greek flag approached Havana Harbor. Cuban Navy ships standing by began picking up survivors and took them to shore. The traumatized women and children were interrogated and sent home, the men imprisoned for months and given psychotropic drugs.
Click link above for full article.
37 people died, eleven of them children in the sinking of the tugboat. The massacre has been condemned by many international organizations, including the Pope who denounced the incident and expressed condolences to the victims.

The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights in October 1996 released a report about the sinking of the tug boat saying that “there was clear evidence that it was not an accident but a premeditated and intentional act.” Victims of the Tugboat "13 de Marzo" v. Cuba, Case 11.436, Report No. 47/96, Inter-Am.C.H.R.,OEA/Ser.L/V/II.95 Doc. 7 rev. at 127 (1997).

Amnesty International on 21 July 1994 requested from the regime to investigate the sinking of the tugboat, and after taking into considerations the international condemnation of the incident, AI reached the conclusion that “there is sufficient evidence to indicate that it was an official operation and that, if events occurred in the way described by several of the survivors, those who died as a result of the incident were victims of extrajudicial execution.” https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/156000/amr250131997en.pdf

Leon Ichaso’s daughter Mari Rodriguez Ichaso made a documentary about the Tugboat Massacre titled “Niños del Paraíso” (Children of Paradise). The YOUTUBE clip has sub-titles


What would take the “Progressives” to recognize the atrocities perpetuated by the Castroit regime?
 
As to the media praising Cuban health care or education, if their health care or education is better than others in Latin America,they deserve praise, just as they deserve condemnation for imprisoning dissenters. Being fair and balanced, I am sure FOX, an outlet you didn’t mention, would probably cover both sides of the question as I just did.
Just to refresh your memory since you have posted in the thread https://www.debatepolitics.com/lati...astro-longtime-dictator-cuba-has-died-25.html, and look at the article Castro's 'Accomplishments' in Cuba a Load of Nonsense on page 25 and read the responses on page 26. Then you can decide by yourself if the Cuban healthcare and education deserve to be praised.
 
i'm a lefty and i don't believe cuba is a wonderful place to live. they do have decent healthcare, however.

How do you know ordinary Cubans have decent healthcare? The fact that visitors to Cuba are taken to special hospitals, not open to citizens, suggests that they do not. As does the Castros being treated outside the country for various ailments.
 
What would take the “Progressives” to recognize the atrocities perpetuated by the Castroit regime?

US bought and paid for terrorist groups who have been part and parcel of the US over a hundred years war crimes and terrorism against Cuba. After the US "liberated" the Cuban people from Spain, they fell under US domination. The US has never been anything but a vicious, murdering band of thugs who have raped and pillaged all the countries they pretend to liberate.

US installed vicious right wing dictatorships always do the same, rape, pillage and murder the citizens. The world says STOP your vicious terrorism against Cuba, USA. You are deeply evil when all the time your rank propaganda talks about what a beacon of freedom you are. Pure poppycock!
 
How do you know ordinary Cubans have decent healthcare? The fact that visitors to Cuba are taken to special hospitals, not open to citizens, suggests that they do not. As does the Castros being treated outside the country for various ailments.

Cubans don't, of course, have the best healthcare in the world. That is not possible with the terrorist strangling USA embargo. But they do have a hell of a better healthcare and life than they ever did under US domination/US brutal right wing dictatorships.

How was the healthcare program under Batista? How was the healthcare program under the 59 years of US total domination after the US "liberated" Cuba?

Americans swallow the rankest, the most transparent propaganda fed to them by their, REMEMBER, lying propagandist US governments.
 
Cubans don't, of course, have the best healthcare in the world. That is not possible with the terrorist strangling USA embargo. But they do have a hell of a better healthcare and life than they ever did under US domination/US brutal right wing dictatorships.

How was the healthcare program under Batista? How was the healthcare program under the 59 years of US total domination after the US "liberated" Cuba?

Americans swallow the rankest, the most transparent propaganda fed to them by their, REMEMBER, lying propagandist US governments.

Cuba is perfectly free to trade with the whole world except the US. So what's with the 'terrorist strangling' nonsense? Cuba remains what it has been for many decades a nasty little dictatorship.
 
Just to refresh your memory since you have posted in the thread https://www.debatepolitics.com/lati...astro-longtime-dictator-cuba-has-died-25.html, and look at the article Castro's 'Accomplishments' in Cuba a Load of Nonsense on page 25 and read the responses on page 26. Then you can decide by yourself if the Cuban healthcare and education deserve to be praised.

Couldn't find the article you referenced. Just google Cuban health care vs other Latin American countries. As I understand it, Cuba used to send doctors to various places around the world. World Health Organization suggested other countries imitate it's system. Friend of mine who worked in post revolution Nicaragua some time ago said that Cuban doctors showed up there ready to work, and work efficiently. That conforms to several reports of Cuban health personnel sent to Latin America, Africa, and Asia. On the other hand, I have seen criticisms of Cuban healthcare as being too doctor-oriented, as opposed to models in other countries. As to education, school attendance went from 50-60% pre-Castro to 100% afterwards, based on a simple search I did. Literacy, though comparatively great in Cuba in the 1950s, seemed to become more universal in rural areas from what I heard.

One can not whitewash the brutality of the Cuban government while acknowledging some of its accomplishments. Back when I did human rights work, one of the more delightful guys I met was a former prisoner from Cuba, a poet/author I believe, who spent ten years in prison there. He had no trouble criticizing Cuba while acknowledging its accomplishments. Some conservatives, who justifiably ridicule political correctness, got all PC themselves if someone dared to say anything positive about anything in Cuba, or some years ago about post-revolution Nicaragua.
 
Cuba is perfectly free to trade with the whole world except the US. So what's with the 'terrorist strangling' nonsense? Cuba remains what it has been for many decades a nasty little dictatorship.

Cuba had to carefully control dissent after the US dictator, Batista, was thrown out because there was an excellent chance that the US could again gain control and rape and pillage Cuba as it had been doing since the late 19th century, early 20th century.

The U.S. policy toward Cuba [U.S.-sponsored sabotage, espionage, terrorism, hijackings, trade sanctions, embargo, and outright invasion] has been consistent with its longstanding policy of trying to subvert any country that pursues an alternative path in the use of its land, labor, capital, markets, and natural resources. Any nation or political movement that emphasizes self-development, egalitarian human services, and public ownership is condemned as an enemy and targeted for sanctions or other forms of attack.

In contrast, the countries deemed "friendly toward America" and "pro-West" are those that leave themselves at the disposal of large U.S. investors on terms that are totally favorable to the moneyed corporate interests."

- Michael Parenti
 
Five Cuban rafters die at sea in attempt to leave country

==========

Does anyone have a count of the number of Cubans murdered by the USA and its always vicious, always right wing dictators since 1900?
 
Five Cuban rafters die at sea in attempt to leave country

==========

Does anyone have a count of the number of Cubans murdered by the USA and its always vicious, always right wing dictators since 1900?

Let's see your numbers. How many Cubans MURDERED by the US government?
 
Couldn't find the article you referenced. Just google Cuban health care vs other Latin American countries. As I understand it, Cuba used to send doctors to various places around the world. World Health Organization suggested other countries imitate it's system. Friend of mine who worked in post revolution Nicaragua some time ago said that Cuban doctors showed up there ready to work, and work efficiently. That conforms to several reports of Cuban health personnel sent to Latin America, Africa, and Asia. On the other hand, I have seen criticisms of Cuban healthcare as being too doctor-oriented, as opposed to models in other countries. As to education, school attendance went from 50-60% pre-Castro to 100% afterwards, based on a simple search I did. Literacy, though comparatively great in Cuba in the 1950s, seemed to become more universal in rural areas from what I heard.
You cannot find it really? Just follow the instructions above and click the link below. You cannot miss it unless you want to miss it.

https://www.debatepolitics.com/lati...astro-longtime-dictator-cuba-has-died-25.html

Go to article “Castro's 'Accomplishments' in Cuba a Load of Nonsense” at post #250, and read the replies.
 
Five Cuban rafters die at sea in attempt to leave country

==========

Does anyone have a count of the number of Cubans murdered by the USA and its always vicious, always right wing dictators since 1900?
Does there is a count of the numbers of Cubans murdered by the Castroit tyrannical regime since 1959? Of course, here is the number of Cubans killed:

The cost in lives of the Cuban Revolution: our work to date
Deaths and disappearances by the Cuban state in 2017 ? Center for a FREE Cuba

See Cuba Archive's work-in-progress report of close to 10,000 documented deaths and disappearances, of which 7,325 are attributed to the Cuban state during the Castro dictatorship. 382 cases are attributed to the state under Raúl Castro, since July 2006, including 51 extrajudicial killings (reported or suspected), 120 from denial of medical care or health reasons, and 52 suicides. See our database to search for individual cases or lists of cases according to different criteria (dates, locations, cause of death, etc.)

We believe that many cases occurring in Cuba (historic and ongoing) remain unreported or undocumented, but we are constantly investigating and adding records or editing existing ones. Your help is greatly appreciated if you have any direct information of any occurrence(s). We must, however, always bear in mind that the actual cost in lives of the Cuban revolution is in the hundreds of thousands, as there are countless victims of Cuba-sponsored subversion, terrorism, and wars in many countries in several continents.
 
You cannot find it really? Just follow the instructions above and click the link below. You cannot miss it unless you want to miss it.

https://www.debatepolitics.com/lati...astro-longtime-dictator-cuba-has-died-25.html

Go to article “Castro's 'Accomplishments' in Cuba a Load of Nonsense” at post #250, and read the replies.

Sorry. I went to the link didn't find anything that debunks the generally accepted notion around the world that Cuba, though a pretty merciless dictatorship, had during Castro's time improved health care and education. He also apparently ended segregation, though I only heard anecdotal evidence of that. What's the harm in accepting that notion? Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. And Mussolini made the trains run on time, as the saying went. Didn't make him a nice person, and acknowledging that doesn't make someone a fascist sympathizer. As noted, I visited and corresponded with many Cuban refugees, one who spent ten years in prison. Hated Castro, but didn't deny the advances under his time. Another exile I worked with as a teen before I started work with refugees, ironically named Fidel, repeated his hatred for Castro, but insisted that the US "got what it deserved in Cuba."

I will try post #250 and check the replies.
 
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