Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call

[beancounter]

if I recognize you as a battleship, can I then state that you are outdated compared to my aircraft carrier group-self?

or would that be inappropriate?

Well, if you insist on engaging in class warfare... :mrgreen:

 

[Hypothetical]

If someone want's to be recognized as a battleship, can I call them the USS Asshole?

only if you want them to give you a 1 gun salute!

 

[diz]

Oh, I see. We need to teach our children that they are not 'entitled' to respect or decency. We need to teach them that if someone is in a position of authority over them (in this case a teacher) that person has the right to disrespect you any time they like. If they want to call you by their favorite nickname for you, (hey faggy boy!) instead of your preferred name, you just have to suck it up. If the teacher chooses to encourage your classmates to disrespect you as well by using your teacher's preferred nickname, that is his prerogative. Children have no rights and they need to learn this first. Either comply with the majority's norms, or expect others to mock and ridicule you. We're not about to curtail someone's 'free speech' to make some weirdo misfit feel better about themselves, right?

Well, they aren't entitled to freestyle their own definitions of what is respectful and decent. In life, if you do things many people consider idiotic, like insisting you be called "The Emperor Napoleon", many people will think you're an idiot and some will treat you that way. *shrug*

I'll grant you shouldn't call a kid a widely recognized slur, but I won't grant a commonly used pronoun is a a slur even if someone imagines it to be.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

Well, they aren't entitled to freestyle their own definitions of what is respectful and decent. In life, if you do things many people consider idiotic, like insisting you be called "The Emperor Napoleon", many people will think you're an idiot and some will treat you that way. *shrug*

I'll grant you shouldn't call a kid a widely recognized slur, but I won't grant a commonly used pronoun is a a slur even if someone imagines it to be.

It is if it's deliberately the wrong one. When I was a kid, if you called a boy "girl" it was considered grounds for an ass kicking, provided the one using it were not too big or strong. But this teacher thinks that because he is big and strong enough to not get his ass kicked, he can assert his own values in his classroom, and if that tends to humiliate one of his students, so be it. His employer seems to disagree. The school administrators are frowning up on a teacher humiliating a student simply because it "offends his conscience" to do otherwise.

 

[diz]

It is if it's deliberately the wrong one. When I was a kid, if you called a boy "girl" it was considered grounds for an ass kicking, provided the one using it were not too big or strong. But this teacher thinks that because he is big and strong enough to not get his ass kicked, he can assert his own values in his classroom, and if that tends to humiliate one of his students, so be it. His employer seems to disagree. The school administrators are frowning up on a teacher humiliating a student simply because it "offends his conscience" to do otherwise.

I'm not sure what you think my position is at this point. I am not "for" teachers mocking or abusing students. I am also not "for" students concocting unusual requests and then claiming they have been humiliated if teachers don't honor those requests.

 

[AProudLefty]

So when someone that looks like a dude approaches you, what do you say? "Good morning, madam." Or, "May I help you miss?"

Ask this lady:

 

[jaeger19]

It is if it's deliberately the wrong one. When I was a kid, if you called a boy "girl" it was considered grounds for an ass kicking, provided the one using it were not too big or strong. But this teacher thinks that because he is big and strong enough to not get his ass kicked, he can assert his own values in his classroom, and if that tends to humiliate one of his students, so be it. His employer seems to disagree. The school administrators are frowning up on a teacher humiliating a student simply because it "offends his conscience" to do otherwise.

Whoa there cowboy... its that what was really going on here? OR was it just that the teacher had a tough time using MR..or MS.. or whatever in dealing with the student?

I had an employee that had been Mike for years..and suddenly he wanted to change genders and become a woman. Look, I sympathize, feeling like you are not in your right skin has to be terrible.

On the other hand.. its was gosh dang hard for me to be sure to call "Abigail".. the right name and pronouns.. when for years it had been mike.. and quite frankly.. he still looked like "Mike".

I would have to know a lot more about what actually was done and said in this situation before running to the conclusion the teacher was going out of his way to mock and degrade this student.

As far as school administrators... it may just be that they are afraid of lawsuits and bad press.

 

[Roadvirus]

Address everyone as "Hey you!" from now on. That way, no fragile pansies will be offended.

 

[AProudLefty]

Address everyone as "Hey you!" from now on. That way, no fragile pansies will be offended.

Then the teacher will be looked upon as a retard who needs to be teaching a special needs classes.

 

[Frigidweirdo]

There are only a limited selection of personal pronouns in the english language, and I shall list them for you now. I, You, He, She, We, It, They, and their variations. Do you foresee any problems allowing students to pick any of these?

Wait, so this "right" is only about being able to select English personal pronouns.

It's like have the right to freedom of religion, but only being able to choose from protestant churches.

 

[Irredentist]

Wait, so this "right" is only about being able to select English personal pronouns.

It's like have the right to freedom of religion, but only being able to choose from protestant churches.

Or the right to own guns but only some varieties? All rights have limits. The right to use various english pronouns isn't one that's enshrined in the Constitution, but it is commonly respected in public environments across the country, such as schools, and places of business.

 

[3leftsdoo]

Hmmm, where does free expression end, and enforced speech begin? That appears to be the question here.

From the CNN article:

Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call (opinion) - CNN

The school policy cited is here:

Human Resources - West Point Public Schools

The alleged "legal precedent" cited in the article is here:

Litigation Update: Title IX Cases Related to Transgender Students Are Not Just Going Away — KSB School Law

Note there is nothing in that citation referring to use of pronouns.

As for the Virginia codes? A cursory search using variations on "use of pronouns" found no requirement to use such pronouns by school personnel. (They may exist, I just didn't find it.)

Now I personally have no problems with using "preferred pronouns" if asked by someone I am speaking to. It's just common courtesy.

I also think this teacher is being unreasonable in this regard, as it doesn't hurt him to extend such courtesy.

However, I am against compulsory speech requirements. Don't tell me what I have to say, that infringes on MY free speech.

So the teacher used the student's preferred name, but avoided any use of pronouns? What is the deal?

^ ^Gets it.

Also, the teacher did nothing wrong, so will prevail in their lawsuit.

 

[Irredentist]

^ ^Gets it.

Also, the teacher did nothing wrong, so will prevail in their lawsuit.

He defied a direct order from the school board. If I refused to call a trans customer by their preferred pronouns, I'd be fired too, what makes this guy deserve better?

 

[3leftsdoo]

I believe I addressed each of those points in the response you quoted. I guess you missed that?

Bottom line, I am simply not an advocate of "compelled speech." It violates all ideal. regarding free speech.

Wasn't that the argument used to stop school prayer, reciting the pledge of allegiance, and all sorts of other "school codes" we no longer see enforced?

It is one thing to prevent abusive speech. But telling someone what they MUST say?

So now we are compelling speech?

^ ^Adverse for the win.

 

[Bullseye]

I have never faced the challenges of being a minority, female, gay, or transgender. In other words, I'm a straight white male. However, I empathize with those who do face those challenges in part because of one insignificant episode while I was in grade school.

My given name is "Barney" and I preferred to be called by my middle name "David." (names have been changed to protect the innocent here).

There was one teacher, an old man, who refused to call me David. I asked him nicely to address me as David and his response was "Your registration card says 'Barney' so 'Barney' it is!"

I'm embarrassed to admit just how much that affected my relationship with that teacher. My grades suffered as a result, as did my ability to learn from that teacher. Something as simple as how I wanted to be identified and a belligerent teacher who refused to take my preference seriously had an impact. Well, that was about 50 years ago, but I still remember it like it was yesterday.

Virginia is being sued because a belligerent teacher refuses to comply with the law that requires teachers to address students by their preferred pronouns. I can relate.


Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call (opinion) - CNN

And a teacher is supposed to remember which "pronoun" is appropriate for the 100-150 students he/she (only necessary pronouns IMHO) deals with each day or risk losing his job? NFW.

 

[3leftsdoo]

He defied a direct order from the school board. If I refused to call a trans customer by their preferred pronouns, I'd be fired too, what makes this guy deserve better?

Preferred pronouns = :roll:

The teacher did nothing wrong & will prevail in their lawsuit.

 

[Irredentist]

And a teacher is supposed to remember which "pronoun" is appropriate for the 100-150 students he/she (only necessary pronouns IMHO) deals with each day or risk losing his job? NFW.

It's not that hard to remember pronouns under normal circumstances, I fail to see why it should be difficult now.

 

[Bullseye]

Sorry, you do not get to use your public position to enforce a religious belief.

Decided when we wrote the constitution.

You fail, cons.

I object to being referred to as "you", my desired pronoun is "sdfadflasdfhave".

 

[3leftsdoo]

It's not that hard to remember pronouns under normal circumstances, I fail to see why it should be difficult now.

Lisa wants to be called Bob.

Teacher calls Lisa Bob.

End.

Of.

Story.

 

[Irredentist]

Preferred pronouns = :roll:

The teacher did nothing wrong & will prevail in their lawsuit.

No, he won't, because he has no case. Your job can compel you to say things. I'm expected to greet customers with courtesy and respect even though many don't return the kindness. If I don't I will be sanctioned. So what makes this guy deserve any better?

 

[Bullseye]

It's not that hard to remember pronouns under normal circumstances, I fail to see why it should be difficult now.

Maybe because there's only two and they related close to gender characteristics? And if one makes a mistake calling a female "he, him" or a male "she, her" it used to get laughed off with an apology.

 

[Irredentist]

Lisa wants to be called Bob.

Teacher calls Lisa Bob.

End.

Of.

Story.

Do you normally address people by their names whenever talking to them or about them? I seldom do, normally I use pronouns, because that is what they are for, so you don't HAVE to use the name every single time. I fail to see why following standard speech conventions is so difficult for someone who is supposed to be a teacher.

 

[Irredentist]

Maybe because there's only two and they related close to gender characteristics? And if one makes a mistake calling a female "he, him" or a male "she, her" it used to get laughed off with an apology.

Oftentimes it still is, I know plenty of trans people who don't get worked up every time someone misgenders them, it happens all the time. Of course some get upset, but then so do some cis people.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Do you normally address people by their names whenever talking to them or about them? I seldom do, normally I use pronouns, because that is what they are for, so you don't HAVE to use the name every single time. I fail to see why following standard speech conventions is so difficult for someone who is supposed to be a teacher.

Actually, when I am talking TO someone I use their names, or "you."

When I am talking about someone I use their names, but I can also use he, she, they, them, him, her, etc.

I see nothing wrong in either scenario with simply using their preferred names. :shrug:

 

[Irredentist]

Actually, when I am talking TO someone I use their names, or "you."

When I am talking about someone I also use their names, but I can also use he, she, they, them, him, her, etc.

I see nothing wrong in either scenario to simply use their preferred names. :shrug:

Generally speaking no there's no problem with it. But every single time? No one does that, because that's why we have pronouns. To single out a trans student like that, but not do it for anyone else, is the definition of discrimination.