Ferguson Demands High Fees To Turn Over City Files

[sangha]

You don't even acknowledge the meat of my arguments, much less respond to them.

Nonsense. You claimed the volume was unreasonable because it would take longer for them to process a large # of requests on a timely basis. Thee fact is that there is no time limit.

The nature of your second criticism is so imprecise that responding to it would be quite literally unreasonable (i.e., not guided by or based on good sense). Considering that I no longer believe your goal is to understand another point of view besides your own, I am retiring from the conversation. Have a good afternoon.

Imprecise? You claim that there may be some other, unnamed, orgs that aren't paying their bill and that maybe that's the cause of the high price and then you think *I* am being imprecise?

Since you're such a fan of precision, why don't you tell us how much Ferguson has incurred in unpaid bills for this service?

 

[gdgyva]

Wrong. FOIA requests are not required to be filled immediately. In fact, there is no time limit.



Now you're just making up facts.

you are right, those requests dont have a time limit

but let me ask you

what would be the story, if the AP, UPI, and other MAJOR news agencies werent getting back their requests in a somewhat timely fashion?

would it be "they arent responding....they are hiding ****....probably deleting files....and so on, and so on"

come on....answer truthfully.....if it took months to get the stuff out, isnt that what the story would be?

so....better to do it faster, with extra help, and overtime...and charge what some call unreasonable fees, or not to get the stuff out for LONG periods of time?

what do you prefer?

 

[Lutherf]

Because even at time and a half, that works out to $90/hr. Even their lawyers don't make that much and they're charging that for the time the clerks spend on the requests

Like I said, the clerks probably aren't the ones handling these requests. If I was making the decisions in Ferguson regarding this issue it wouldn't even be my staff filling the requests. I'd have a third party doing it just for an extra level of separation.

 

[CycloneWanderer]

Nonsense. You claimed the volume was unreasonable because it would take longer for them to process a large # of requests on a timely basis. Thee fact is that there is no time limit.

Imprecise? You claim that there may be some other, unnamed, orgs that aren't paying their bill and that maybe that's the cause of the high price and then you think *I* am being imprecise?

Since you're such a fan of precision, why don't you tell us how much Ferguson has incurred in unpaid bills for this service?

It is exactly your imprecision while reading which puts you in these predicaments. The word "if" indicates a conditional clause, not an outright statement of fact.

I shouldn't even bother with this, as you won't take the time to understand the nuance anyways.

 

[CycloneWanderer]

Since you're such a fan of precision, why don't you tell us how much Ferguson has incurred in unpaid bills for this service?

And here we have a sterling example of an unreasonable request.

 

[sangha]

you are right, those requests dont have a time limit

but let me ask you

what would be the story, if the AP, UPI, and other MAJOR news agencies werent getting back their requests in a somewhat timely fashion?

would it be "they arent responding....they are hiding ****....probably deleting files....and so on, and so on"

come on....answer truthfully.....if it took months to get the stuff out, isnt that what the story would be?

so....better to do it faster, with extra help, and overtime...and charge what some call unreasonable fees, or not to get the stuff out for LONG periods of time?

what do you prefer?

SO your argument has gone from "They're charging that to discourage requests" to "They're trying to avoid bad press by charging $135/hour" :lamo

 

[sangha]

Like I said, the clerks probably aren't the ones handling these requests. If I was making the decisions in Ferguson regarding this issue it wouldn't even be my staff filling the requests. I'd have a third party doing it just for an extra level of separation.

I've seen no evidence that this is being done by a third party and Ferguson is merely passing on the costs.

 

[sangha]

It is exactly your imprecision while reading which puts you in these predicaments. The word "if" indicates a conditional clause, not an outright statement of fact.

I shouldn't even bother with this, as you won't take the time to understand the nuance anyways.

Yes, and your "If" is incredibly precise.

 

[clownboy]

Read more @: Ferguson Demands High Fees To Turn Over City Files

Well.. I think its obvious. The city of Ferguson is obviously is hiding something... [/FONT][/COLOR]

Occam's razor. They're just smart. Demand is at an all time high and they have the same number of people on the payroll they always had when demand was near nil. This does two things for them, discourages looky loos and increases their city budget.

 

[gdgyva]

SO your argument has gone from "They're charging that to discourage requests" to "They're trying to avoid bad press by charging $135/hour" :lamo

Or maybe a combination of the two

Or something else entirely

You know....speculation

What people do all the time....only a few of us actually admit we are speculating

Maybe you know something the rest of us don't.....please share

 

[sangha]

Or maybe a combination of the two

So now it's both!! :lamo

Or something else entirely

Or maybe something else!! :lamo

You know....speculation

It's what those without facts rely on

 

[clownboy]

It's what those without facts rely on

Which is in this case YOU and me and everyone else posting to this thread. We all know they raised their price, we are all speculating as to the probable cause.

 

[sangha]

Which is in this case YOU and me and everyone else posting to this thread. We all know they raised their price, we are all speculating as to the probable cause.

I haven't done any speculating about the cause.

 

[Lutherf]

I've seen no evidence that this is being done by a third party and Ferguson is merely passing on the costs.

Ferguson told the AP it wanted nearly $2,000 to pay a consulting firm for up to 16 hours of work to retrieve messages on its own email system, a practice that information technology experts call unnecessary. The firm, St. Louis-based Acumen Consulting, wouldn't comment specifically on Ferguson's contract, but said the search could be more complicated and require technicians to examine tape backups.

Ferguson demands high fees to turn over city files

 

[apdst]

No, not one right winger has argued they should charge whatever is reasonable. they have argued that the price should priced high enough to discourage requests which, by definition, is unreasonable. There is also a post saying it's OK for ferguson to use the requests to increase revenue

Who said that?

 

[tres borrachos]

Read more @: Ferguson Demands High Fees To Turn Over City Files

Well.. I think its obvious. The city of Ferguson is obviously is hiding something... [/FONT][/COLOR]

That isn't obvious to me after reading your link. I see this as them passing on fees to reporters who want information. Information costs. The city of Ferguson doesn't exist to feed material to the media.

The AP needs to do a better job running their own business. In the future, don't request something without finding out the cost in advance.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

That isn't obvious to me after reading your link. I see this as them passing on fees to reporters who want information. Information costs. The city of Ferguson doesn't exist to feed material to the media.

The AP needs to do a better job running their own business. In the future, don't request something without finding out the cost in advance.

$135 an hour when the city pays that worker gathering the information 13.50?
"Price-gouging for government files is one way that local, state and federal agencies have responded to requests for potentially embarrassing information they may not want released. Open records laws are designed to give the public access to government records at little or no cost, and have historically exposed waste, wrongdoing and corruption.

Ferguson told the AP it wanted nearly $2,000 to pay a consulting firm for up to 16 hours of work to retrieve messages on its own email system, a practice that information technology experts call unnecessary. "

Sounds like an unreasonable price.

 

[j-mac]

Read more @: Ferguson Demands High Fees To Turn Over City Files

Well.. I think its obvious. The city of Ferguson is obviously is hiding something... [/FONT][/COLOR]

hahaha...Using the demo tactic.....That's wonderful....

 

[tres borrachos]

$135 an hour when the city pays that worker gathering the information 13.50?
"Price-gouging for government files is one way that local, state and federal agencies have responded to requests for potentially embarrassing information they may not want released. Open records laws are designed to give the public access to government records at little or no cost, and have historically exposed waste, wrongdoing and corruption.

Ferguson told the AP it wanted nearly $2,000 to pay a consulting firm for up to 16 hours of work to retrieve messages on its own email system, a practice that information technology experts call unnecessary. "

Sounds like an unreasonable price.

You're a smart guy. I know you don't think that the only cost involved in the hourly pay of a worker.

Information costs money. Everything costs money. The city of Ferguson isn't in business to feed the media.

Why would you think they have something to hide if they're giving out the information that they can, for a fee? They're providing it, so obviously they don't have anything to hide. Refusal to provide it would be an indication that they are hiding something.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

You're a smart guy. I know you don't think that the only cost involved in the hourly pay of a worker.

Information costs money. Everything costs money. The city of Ferguson isn't in business to feed the media.

Why would you think they have something to hide if they're giving out the information that they can, for a fee? They're providing it, so obviously they don't have anything to hide. Refusal to provide it would be an indication that they are hiding something.

I recently had to gather donor info for a person who is running for office. The freedom of information request cost me a total around $20. It was around 40 pages. Was in the office for around 45 minutes.

 

[gdgyva]

I recently had to gather donor info for a person who is running for office. The freedom of information request cost me a total around $20. It was around 40 pages. Was in the office for around 45 minutes.

How big was the office?

How many requests were they dealing with?

This is not an average situation for freedom of information requests

 

[TheDemSocialist]

How big was the office?

County office.

How many requests were they dealing with?

No idea. Nor should that have to do with anything because the government is not a profit and demand...

This is not an average situation for freedom of information requests

What is then? If you have the information please provide it...

 

[Excon]

Nor should that have to do with anything because the government is not a profit and demand...

The heck it shouldn't.
If the person/s is swamped with such requests they are being taken away from other tasks.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

The heck it shouldn't.
If the person/s is swamped with such requests they are being taken away from other tasks.

Isnt that their task to provide and ready documents to the public?

 

[Excon]

Isnt that their task to provide and ready documents to the public?

:doh
It costs to do so.