Feminism.

[Skeptic Bob]

I disagree. I think a fair employer has the obligation to look at the benefits he offers his employees, and distribute those on the basis of merit. Not who is the most intimidating.

It isn’t about being intimidating. Workers always think they are worth more than employers do. It is a stupid financial decision to pay more than you need to in order to hold on to good people. It isn’t a charity. You are trying to turn a profit.

Let’s say I have 5 employees and I currently pay them each $70,000/yr. A lot of time was put into training them and getting to a productive level. One of them comes to me and says he got an offer from another company for $80,000/year and plans to quit unless I can match that. I decide that training another person up from scratch isn’t worth it so I match the offer. Are you saying that even though my other 4 employees got no such outside offer I should now have to pay all of them $80,000 as well?

Paying more than I need to puts me at a disadvantage with my competition because it gives me less money to bargain with in attracting the best workers and could force me to raise my prices higher than I normally would.

 

[JMR]

It isn’t about being intimidating. Workers always think they are worth more than employers do. It is a stupid financial decision to pay more than you need to in order to hold on to good people. It isn’t a charity. You are trying to turn a profit.

Let’s say I have 5 employees and I currently pay them each $70,000/yr. A lot of time was put into training them and getting to a productive level. One of them comes to me and says he got an offer from another company for $80,000/year and plans to quit unless I can match that. I decide that training another person up from scratch isn’t worth it so I match the offer. Are you saying that even though my other 4 employees got no such outside offer I should now have to pay all of them $80,000 as well?

Paying more than I need to puts me at a disadvantage with my competition because it gives me less money to bargain with in attracting the best workers and could force me to raise my prices higher than I normally would.

I think you have now made the job an $80,000 a year job, and everyone who performs that same job should be paid that. Are you saying that the person offered another job is a better employee than the other 4? If so, than they need a promotion. Then it is reasonable that you have one $80,000 employee, and 4 $70,000 employees. But if everyone is doing the same work, to the same benefit to your company I think you are taking advantage of your employees. Human assets are very valuable. I know I left a job after finding out there was a pay "discrepancy."
I was offered matching salary, but insisted it be retroactive to the date of discrepancy. That was considered unreasonable...I thought it unreasonable to stay at that point. Very happy with that decision, and it certainly put me in the category of those who ask for raises.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

I think you have now made the job an $80,000 a year job, and everyone who performs that same job should be paid that. Are you saying that the person offered another job is a better employee than the other 4? If so, than they need a promotion. Then it is reasonable that you have one $80,000 employee, and 4 $70,000 employees. But if everyone is doing the same work, to the same benefit to your company I think you are taking advantage of your employees. Human assets are very valuable. I know I left a job after finding out there was a pay "discrepancy."
I was offered matching salary, but insisted it be retroactive to the date of discrepancy. That was considered unreasonable...I thought it unreasonable to stay at that point. Very happy with that decision, and it certainly put me in the category of those who ask for raises.

And that is the beauty of the system. The employer has the right to offer to pay you what he or she thinks you are worth and you have the right to accept or decline.

I am curious, do you think it is unfair that some people get a better deal when they buy a car or house by negotiating instead of simply paying the asking price the seller initially asks for?

 

[JMR]

And that is the beauty of the system. The employer has the right to offer to pay you what he or she thinks you are worth and you have the right to accept or decline.

I am curious, do you think it is unfair that some people get a better deal when they buy a car or house by negotiating instead of simply paying the asking price the seller initially asks for?

I think the systemic underpayment of women doing equal work is a problem. You can couch that in many terms....males more likely to ask for raises, employers right to decide what you are worth..etc, etc.

 

[Absentglare]

And that is the beauty of the system. The employer has the right to offer to pay you what he or she thinks you are worth and you have the right to accept or decline.

I am curious, do you think it is unfair that some people get a better deal when they buy a car or house by negotiating instead of simply paying the asking price the seller initially asks for?

If the "market forces" were in control of salary, we would all be paid based on how productive we are, rather than how hard we fight for salary detached from productivity. Profits would be small or non-existent, and there would be no room for overpaying workers who are demanding or underpaying workers who are meek.

When people say that racism, sexism, etc. still exist and pervade society, it's through these factors of confidence and assertiveness that they can continue to express and propagate one another. If all the engineers are white males, that sends a message, white males who are however dimly aware of that would be slightly more confident in pursuing engineering.

The fact that there's a seemingly benign explanation, that they don't "negotiate" as well, doesn't actually disprove that sexism is involved.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

I think the systemic underpayment of women doing equal work is a problem. You can couch that in many terms....males more likely to ask for raises, employers right to decide what you are worth..etc, etc.

I agree it is a problem. I’m just saying it often isn’t the fault of the employer. The problem needs to be addressed at a much more fundamental level. It starts in childhood when girls are taught to be polite and proper and boys are taught to be assertive. Everyone should be raised to stand up for themselves and to go after what they want.

 

[sangha]

And that is the beauty of the system. The employer has the right to offer to pay you what he or she thinks you are worth and you have the right to accept or decline.

I am curious, do you think it is unfair that some people get a better deal when they buy a car or house by negotiating instead of simply paying the asking price the seller initially asks for?

And why do you think women routinely accept less pay than men?

I cannot think of any reasonable explanation that does not exist gender discrimination at some level but maybe you can

I agree it is a problem. I’m just saying it often isn’t the fault of the employer.

And coincidentally, modern day feminists are no blaming the employer either, though there may be individual employers who do get blamed. Instead, they are blaming a sexist system

 

[SirGareth]

There is obvious differences between the genders, men are physically stronger on average for example.
I never said women & men were one & the same, and we might have different needs, but we are equals and individuals, just like every other human being. I'm for equal opportunities, and against gender-based segregation women face on a daily basis.

How to drive a feminist insane:

Ask one: "What do you call a female enlistee in the US Navy??"

(Seaman Recruit, or is it Semen recruit?)

 

[sangha]

How to drive a feminist insane:

Ask one: "What do you call a female enlistee in the US Navy??"

A service member in the US military

 

[CLAX1911]

And why do you think women routinely accept less pay than men?

my guess is that they don't know what the men make because in negotiation processes an employer isn't going to tell the newest member what they pay everyone else.

I cannot think of any reasonable explanation that does not exist gender discrimination at some level but maybe you can

yes the employer names and number and the woman agrees to it.

A person will low-ball because maybe they want to save money that's a reason outside of gender discrimination.

And coincidentally, modern day feminists are no blaming the employer either, though there may be individual employers who do get blamed. Instead, they are blaming a sexist system

So they want a special system? I thought they wanted to be equal.

 

[JMR]

I agree it is a problem. I’m just saying it often isn’t the fault of the employer. The problem needs to be addressed at a much more fundamental level. It starts in childhood when girls are taught to be polite and proper and boys are taught to be assertive. Everyone should be raised to stand up for themselves and to go after what they want.

Agreed

 

[blackjack50]

I agree it is a problem. I’m just saying it often isn’t the fault of the employer. The problem needs to be addressed at a much more fundamental level. It starts in childhood when girls are taught to be polite and proper and boys are taught to be assertive. Everyone should be raised to stand up for themselves and to go after what they want.

Addendum:

EVERYONE should be taught to be polite and proper. They should also be taught that you can be assertive and pursue your goals WITHOUT being an asshole.


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[JMR]

Addendum:

EVERYONE should be taught to be polite and proper. They should also be taught that you can be assertive and pursue your goals WITHOUT being an asshole.


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The field is also a little tilted. Males are admired for being assertive, women are criticized and called pushy. It's gonna take a while.

 

[CLAX1911]

The field is also a little tilted. Males are admired for being assertive, women are criticized and called pushy. It's gonna take a while.

Males are criticized for that.

 

[JMR]

Males are criticized for that.

In what way? Serious question.

 

[CLAX1911]

In what way? Serious question.

The same way women are. If someone's assertive I don't know what sex has to do with it. Now men that get criticized and told you'll never find a wife for you know you shouldn't be that disagreeable or whatever might tell the person giving that man that criticism to drop dead. Since the response to the criticism that's the difference I would think.

Also I don't think men complain about being criticized for that sort of thing. Clearly you don't even believe men get criticized for it because nobody's complaining.

 

[SirGareth]

A service member in the US military

No the rank is seaman recruit

 

[Hawkeye10]

The same way women are. If someone's assertive I don't know what sex has to do with it. Now men that get criticized and told you'll never find a wife for you know you shouldn't be that disagreeable or whatever might tell the person giving that man that criticism to drop dead. Since the response to the criticism that's the difference I would think.

Also I don't think men complain about being criticized for that sort of thing. Clearly you don't even believe men get criticized for it because nobody's complaining.

Exactly, some people have no clue how the feminists and the rest of the females who run the schools pressure the boys into acting like girls as much as possible now, males are taught early and with a heavy hand to NOT be assertive.

 

[sangha]

No the rank is seaman recruit

You asked "What do you call a female enlistee in the US Navy??"

My answer was correct

 

[RAMOSS]

No the rank is seaman recruit

There are some times that people make comments that are perfect straight lines for rude , crude and socially unacceptable jokes. My weird sense of humor goes into overdrive, and it gets really difficult to not blurt things out. This is one of those occasions.

 

[blackjack50]

The field is also a little tilted. Males are admired for being assertive, women are criticized and called pushy. It's gonna take a while.

Idk if I agree. A lot of women in my age group (30 and under) are assertive. In fact, I think that we are going to see more problems for my age group of males and the younger ones turning into men. It is a woman’s world out there now. Ish. And it is going to continue to grow. Being a “man” and being “manly” almost seems...discouraged now. Idk. Could just be me living in a college town seeing a lot of younger guys who really don’t know how to be a man. A good Man.

 

[MrWonka]

For or against ? The definition,

I don't see how anyone would be against equality of the sexes.

Sounds good to me. Unfortunately, there are a lot of men who are so used to having superior priveledges that to them basic equality feels like persecution.

 

[JMR]

Idk if I agree. A lot of women in my age group (30 and under) are assertive. In fact, I think that we are going to see more problems for my age group of males and the younger ones turning into men. It is a woman’s world out there now. Ish. And it is going to continue to grow. Being a “man” and being “manly” almost seems...discouraged now. Idk. Could just be me living in a college town seeing a lot of younger guys who really don’t know how to be a man. A good Man.

You make a good point. I have heard that exact complaint from men in your age group, and it does seem that lately several industries have sought to hire women. This attempt to even things out has a negative effect on men, and I hope as a society we can find a way to deal with that. It used to be a "man's world" and now we have what seems a "woman's world" to many men.

 

[blackjack50]

You make a good point. I have heard that exact complaint from men in your age group, and it does seem that lately several industries have sought to hire women. This attempt to even things out has a negative effect on men, and I hope as a society we can find a way to deal with that. It used to be a "man's world" and now we have what seems a "woman's world" to many men.

Yea. I mean I don’t personally feel slighted, but there are times that I think feminism still crosses the line back to man hating. Not often. But it happens. More to guys who are masculine I think. Idk. Just observations I’ve made being a shooter and 4x4 driving martial artist lol. S


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[RAMOSS]

Yea. I mean I don’t personally feel slighted, but there are times that I think feminism still crosses the line back to man hating. Not often. But it happens. More to guys who are masculine I think. Idk. Just observations I’ve made being a shooter and 4x4 driving martial artist lol. S


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Perhaps it is not the 'feminists' that are doing the hating, but merely reacting to the excessive disrespect of the 'masculine' guys. One pattern I noticed is that a much larger percentage of guys who are worried about being 'masculine' treat women poorly, and with an underlining contempt in their attitudes.