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Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerrymander"

danarhea

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A panel of federal judges on Monday ruled that Wisconsin's 2011 legislative redistricting plan, created by Republican leaders virtually in secret, is an unconstitutional partisan gerrymander.

This is huge, because it's eventually going to end up in the Supreme Court. With Trump's pick for justice, whoever he is, Kennedy will be the swing vote on this. Should he rule against partisan gerrymandering, the decision will impact all states. This is going to be one of the biggest, if not the biggest, issue in 2017.

Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerrymander" | Politics and Elections | host.madison.com
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

This is huge, because it's eventually going to end up in the Supreme Court. With Trump's pick for justice, whoever he is, Kennedy will be the swing vote on this. Should he rule against partisan gerrymandering, the decision will impact all states. This is going to be one of the biggest, if not the biggest issue, in 2017.

Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerrymander" | Politics and Elections | host.madison.com

Most excellent.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

This is huge, because it's eventually going to end up in the Supreme Court. With Trump's pick for justice, whoever he is, Kennedy will be the swing vote on this. Should he rule against partisan gerrymandering, the decision will impact all states. This is going to be one of the biggest, if not the biggest, issue in 2017.

Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerrymander" | Politics and Elections | host.madison.com

I'd be worried about the justices that hold in favor of partisan gerrymandering.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

People have been b*tching about this for Decades, I know I have, the districts are supposed to be census driven not political but both Parties abuse it in an attempt to break up voting strongholds for the other Party and is not what the founders wanted. Redistricting should be done by a nonpartisan group that ensures those lines are based on the numbers, not political agendas.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

People have been b*tching about this for Decades, I know I have, the districts are supposed to be census driven not political but both Parties abuse it in an attempt to break up voting strongholds for the other Party and is not what the founders wanted. Redistricting should be done by a nonpartisan group that ensures those lines are based on the numbers, not political agendas.

I've always thought a computer program could be set to find the geographic blocks that are mathematically the most homogenous in terms of population and shape. (primarily varying in size due to different population densities)

If the software has no data other than population total by area, then it can't possibly come up with any bias based on any particular demographic.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

I've always thought a computer program could be set to find the geographic blocks that are mathematically the most homogenous in terms of population and shape. (primarily varying in size due to different population densities)

If the software has no data other than population total by area, then it can't possibly come up with any bias based on any particular demographic.

I agree. A computer program designed to create compact districts could probably be easily designed. And in a way that it's fairness couldn't be legitimately challenged by either side. But states are very hesitant to give up their control.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

People have been b*tching about this for Decades, I know I have, the districts are supposed to be census driven not political but both Parties abuse it in an attempt to break up voting strongholds for the other Party and is not what the founders wanted. Redistricting should be done by a nonpartisan group that ensures those lines are based on the numbers, not political agendas.

Ironic isn't it that some who are demanding that we do away with the electoral college and go with the popular vote are the ones who usually don't want to do away with the gerrymandering that benefits them.

Ideally the census should separate districts into as equal in population as possible with no consideration for what political parties or special interest groups or minorities or whatever are involved. And ideally each district would have one vote in the electoral college with the two votes allocated to the senators split if the districts are evenly split or go with the winner in the case of states in which all districts go for the same candidate.

The Republicans/conservatives I think would go for that. I'm pretty sure the Democrats would not.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

This is huge, because it's eventually going to end up in the Supreme Court. With Trump's pick for justice, whoever he is, Kennedy will be the swing vote on this. Should he rule against partisan gerrymandering, the decision will impact all states. This is going to be one of the biggest, if not the biggest, issue in 2017.

Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerrymander" | Politics and Elections | host.madison.com

and should they rule in favor of gerrymandering, that would rank among the worst decisions ever.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

I've always thought a computer program could be set to find the geographic blocks that are mathematically the most homogenous in terms of population and shape. (primarily varying in size due to different population densities)

If the software has no data other than population total by area, then it can't possibly come up with any bias based on any particular demographic.

Might work, what we have is not.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

This is huge, because it's eventually going to end up in the Supreme Court. With Trump's pick for justice, whoever he is, Kennedy will be the swing vote on this. Should he rule against partisan gerrymandering, the decision will impact all states. This is going to be one of the biggest, if not the biggest, issue in 2017.

Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerrymander" | Politics and Elections | host.madison.com

We need to do away with districts altogether to stop this undemocratic BS. Small states should have statewide votes, large states should divide themselves into super districts with simple straight lines with equal populations. Then each super district gets allocated a proportional number of representatives aiming for ~5-10 representatives per super district. When people in those super districts vote, they vote for a party not a person. Seats are then distributed to the parties on a proportional basis. Say the vote goes 46% party A, 42% party B, and 10% party C. Then Party A gets 5 seats, party B gets 4, and party C gets 1.

Parties can then fill the seats in primaries held after.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

I agree. A computer program designed to create compact districts could probably be easily designed. And in a way that it's fairness couldn't be legitimately challenged by either side. But states are very hesitant to give up their control.

Yes, the very people who would have to make this change are the ones benefiting from the current system. Gerrymandering benefits both parties, even the one on the "losing" side of the districting still gets a few solid seats. (the opposition tries to cram as many of your voters into one district as possible) The people in those solid seats tend to run more or less unopposed.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

Ironic isn't it that some who are demanding that we do away with the electoral college and go with the popular vote are the ones who usually don't want to do away with the gerrymandering that benefits them.

Ideally the census should separate districts into as equal in population as possible with no consideration for what political parties or special interest groups or minorities or whatever are involved. And ideally each district would have one vote in the electoral college with the two votes allocated to the senators split if the districts are evenly split or go with the winner in the case of states in which all districts go for the same candidate.

The Republicans/conservatives I think would go for that. I'm pretty sure the Democrats would not.

I do not know, has anyone ever suggested a change on the House or Senate Floor, oh wait we re talking about the Foxes being asked to give up one of their best tools for controlling the Chickens. I think it would have to be something that gets decided by the courts to get the politicians out of the picture. I do not see either Party supporting it.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

This is huge, because it's eventually going to end up in the Supreme Court. With Trump's pick for justice, whoever he is, Kennedy will be the swing vote on this. Should he rule against partisan gerrymandering, the decision will impact all states. This is going to be one of the biggest, if not the biggest, issue in 2017.

Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerrymander" | Politics and Elections | host.madison.com
Thanks for the story, and I think that you're correct about the Supreme Court, too. :thumbs:
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

So do liberals realize that many of the most gerrymandered states are likely liberal states like Maryland and California?
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

Yes, the very people who would have to make this change are the ones benefiting from the current system. Gerrymandering benefits both parties, even the one on the "losing" side of the districting still gets a few solid seats. (the opposition tries to cram as many of your voters into one district as possible) The people in those solid seats tend to run more or less unopposed.

Bobby Scott from VA is a good example. His district has been drawn to include as many poor minority voters as possible. He has not had a serious challenger dating back to Clinton days. He has helped steer federal funds into the pockets of commubity leaders who in turn get the community to support their cash cow
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

I do not know, has anyone ever suggested a change on the House or Senate Floor, oh wait we re talking about the Foxes being asked to give up one of their best tools for controlling the Chickens. I think it would have to be something that gets decided by the courts to get the politicians out of the picture. I do not see either Party supporting it.

Re gerrymandering, the Republicans like to do that as much as the Democrats do and I agree the courts will have to order it before either will willingly give that up.

What I was talking about is once the districts are organized by population as they are supposed to be, that the majority in each district, not an entire state, should go to the Presidential candidate of their choice in the electoral college. And the 2 Senate votes should go with the majority or should be split if the districts are evenly split.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

I've always thought a computer program could be set to find the geographic blocks that are mathematically the most homogenous in terms of population and shape. (primarily varying in size due to different population densities)

If the software has no data other than population total by area, then it can't possibly come up with any bias based on any particular demographic.

Exactly. And we both know why it will never happen.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

Re gerrymandering, the Republicans like to do that as much as the Democrats do and I agree the courts will have to order it before either will willingly give that up.

What I was talking about is once the districts are organized by population as they are supposed to be, that the majority in each district, not an entire state, should go to the Presidential candidate of their choice in the electoral college. And the 2 Senate votes should go with the majority or should be split if the districts are evenly split.

The CD method of allocating EVs in the EC must be done by states, as we currently see with NE and ME. And as we saw with ME-2 going to Trump, ME-1 to Clinton and the two for the Senators to Clinton.

GOPs in PA toyed with this in 2011 but were pressured by DC GOPs not to do it.

Another aspect not addressed in this thread so far are the 30 or so minority Majority CDs.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

So do liberals realize that many of the most gerrymandered states are likely liberal states like Maryland and California?

Quantify this.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

I've always thought a computer program could be set to find the geographic blocks that are mathematically the most homogenous in terms of population and shape. (primarily varying in size due to different population densities)

If the software has no data other than population total by area, then it can't possibly come up with any bias based on any particular demographic.
Sadly it almost certainly will.

Basically what you're doing is a form of the knapsack problem where you have to put each household in groups of equal population that minimizes geographic distance within the group while also resulting in majority rule districts that combine to proportionally represent the state.

This might be possible if people didn't geographically segregate, but they do. Just look at the breakdown of rural vs city voters. This creates a problematic decision space. People are highly non-uniformly distributed across a state with political beliefs that are largely correlated with population density and the only tool you have to yield a proportional representation is a set of clunky winner take all elections.

People live in the cities, the country is much more uniform in density. The way you divide up the cities determines everything. I can write an algorithm that will clump as much of the major cities together as possible, likely putting each major city into the center of the corner and dealing out it's suburbs to the surrounding country side. The result would be a few extremely dark blue districts surrounded by a sea of light red. I could also write an algorithm that will attempt to split at the cities, creating large light blue regions surrounded by a few islands of dark red. Or I could make the algorithm more agnostic, sometimes acting one way and sometimes acting another.

The only real way around this is with super districts. If a state has 17 representatives, divide it into two super districts of 8 and 9 representatives. Then the people of each super district vote for a party. Once all votes are counted the parties are proportionally awarded a number of seats. The parties can then have primaries to allocate the individual representatives or they could have been "elected" ahead of time. (ie our candiates are A,B,C,D,E,and F. If we only get 4 seats then E and F are out of luck)

Because you're dealing with population areas that span cities, each election has a proportional representation of the electorate rather than a gerrymandered one. And because you're proportionally allocated seats instead of winner take all, you're able to actually represent the population.. including 3rd parties.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

The CD method of allocating EVs in the EC must be done by states, as we currently see with NE and ME. And as we saw with ME-2 going to Trump, ME-1 to Clinton and the two for the Senators to Clinton.

GOPs in PA toyed with this in 2011 but were pressured by DC GOPs not to do it.

Another aspect not addressed in this thread so far are the 30 or so minority Majority CDs.

Well Wyoming for instance is a one federal district state. But it gets 3 EC votes despite that one district being smaller than most major cities in population. So Wyoming per capita has a bit more power than California with its 55 votes has per capita. But the system does serve to dilute concentrations of power and make everybody's vote count.

States can allocate whatever state districts they want but the court won't let them design them so that a privileged few have excessive power.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

This is huge, because it's eventually going to end up in the Supreme Court. With Trump's pick for justice, whoever he is, Kennedy will be the swing vote on this. Should he rule against partisan gerrymandering, the decision will impact all states. This is going to be one of the biggest, if not the biggest, issue in 2017.

Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerrymander" | Politics and Elections | host.madison.com

Very interesting indeed . . I would definitely like a ruling on this that helps limit and stop gerrymandering. On a semi related topic I'd also like to see one on voter-ID which most people are for as long as the law deal with ID and NOT gerrymandering, closing voting locations, restricting days times and early voting etc. ID law wouldn't bother me one bit as long as current acceptable legal IDs remain acceptable and any NEW ID is easily and readily available for free at most the same places you can get one now including at or very near the voting location.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

Sadly it almost certainly will.

Basically what you're doing is a form of the knapsack problem where you have to put each household in groups of equal population that minimizes geographic distance within the group while also resulting in majority rule districts that combine to proportionally represent the state.

This might be possible if people didn't geographically segregate, but they do. Just look at the breakdown of rural vs city voters. This creates a problematic decision space. People are highly non-uniformly distributed across a state with political beliefs that are largely correlated with population density and the only tool you have to yield a proportional representation is a set of clunky winner take all elections.

People live in the cities, the country is much more uniform in density. The way you divide up the cities determines everything. I can write an algorithm that will clump as much of the major cities together as possible, likely putting each major city into the center of the corner and dealing out it's suburbs to the surrounding country side. The result would be a few extremely dark blue districts surrounded by a sea of light red. I could also write an algorithm that will attempt to split at the cities, creating large light blue regions surrounded by a few islands of dark red. Or I could make the algorithm more agnostic, sometimes acting one way and sometimes acting another.

The only real way around this is with super districts. If a state has 17 representatives, divide it into two super districts of 8 and 9 representatives. Then the people of each super district vote for a party. Once all votes are counted the parties are proportionally awarded a number of seats. The parties can then have primaries to allocate the individual representatives or they could have been "elected" ahead of time. (ie our candiates are A,B,C,D,E,and F. If we only get 4 seats then E and F are out of luck)

Because you're dealing with population areas that span cities, each election has a proportional representation of the electorate rather than a gerrymandered one. And because you're proportionally allocated seats instead of winner take all, you're able to actually represent the population.. including 3rd parties.

Math is a dick
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

This is huge, because it's eventually going to end up in the Supreme Court. With Trump's pick for justice, whoever he is, Kennedy will be the swing vote on this. Should he rule against partisan gerrymandering, the decision will impact all states. This is going to be one of the biggest, if not the biggest, issue in 2017.

Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerrymander" | Politics and Elections | host.madison.com

Outstanding. Perhaps we are on the track where we the voter will be able to choose our representatives instead of having our representatives choose their voters.
 
Re: Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an "unconstitutional gerryman

So do liberals realize that many of the most gerrymandered states are likely liberal states like Maryland and California?

I can't speak for all liberals, but who cares? Gerrymandering is garbage regardless of who is doing it. The country and the democratic process would be better off without it. Anyone who would wish to keep it for partisan reasons is just a hack.
 
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