Faith Is No Longer a Virtue in America

[blarg]

if God talks to you through books or a synagogue that's more of a bias than complete Detachment from reality?



It's okay if you don't believe in God.

yes its not wild insanity just wishful thinking

i know its ok not to believe in gods its ok to belive in gods

its not ok to believe gods are talking to you without being able to test it because if they are not your going crazy

 

[CLAX1911]

yes its not wild insanity just wishful thinking

well good I'm glad you don't think it's insanity.

i know its ok not to believe in gods its ok to belive in gods

Agree.

its not ok to believe gods are talking to you without being able to test it because if they are not your going crazy

here is where I disagree. People believe God speaks to them through books through synagogue or church through all sorts of avenues. I don't think that's crazy.

 

[eohrnberger]

What the hell is "Peaceful" about the way Mike Pence practices his faith, huh? Clearly he has no problem using his "peaceful" faith to oppress women and gays. Trump has already admitted that Pence would like to "hang them all". This word "peaceful", I don't think you understand what it means.

Pence is a religious fanatic, not a peaceful practitioner. Given the option, he would use his faith as an excuse to subjugate women and homosexuals.

That's quite an accusation to make. Not one that'll pass without citation, and not citation from some biased source, as I've come to understand that the media hates religion and the religious almost as much a pro-2nd amendment people.

So who, by name, has Pence subjugated? Do we have any public or private act that substantiates this? No, trump shooting his mouth off doesn't count for much either.

[/quote]That's the kind of religion that has no merit in civil society and it's proper to mock it if not to wipe it out completely. We're spending billions killing fanatics in the middle east but we patronize them here. There is a contradiction in that. [/quote]

Umm, no. We are patronizing them here as well, just select groups of them.

The GOP, especially, is guilty of not reigning in their lunatics and, instead, holding them up as examples of spiritual transcendence, a horrible lie. They are haters and for that I can't pretend to tolerate them.



Thanks for that.



I agree and surely you can accept that the ones who treat others like **** have the same magical reasoning as those who use it as an excuse to do good and there's no way to determine that by the type of symbol they hang around their necks. Until the religious no longer use the god card as a default token of morality, the bad people, like Mike Pence, will continue to use their imagined religious authority to harm others.

You've made mention of the long and bloody history of religion, and, yes, that's true, but amongst the now living, there's not much of that anymore, unless you count the Islamic extremest fundamentalists, who do inflict bloody mayhem on innocents.

 

[Manc Skipper]

That's quite an accusation to make. Not one that'll pass without citation, and not citation from some biased source, as I've come to understand that the media hates religion and the religious almost as much a pro-2nd amendment people.

So who, by name, has Pence subjugated? Do we have any public or private act that substantiates this? No, trump shooting his mouth off doesn't count for much either.

That's the kind of religion that has no merit in civil society and it's proper to mock it if not to wipe it out completely. We're spending billions killing fanatics in the middle east but we patronize them here. There is a contradiction in that. [/quote]

Umm, no. We are patronizing them here as well, just select groups of them.



You've made mention of the long and bloody history of religion, and, yes, that's true, but amongst the now living, there's not much of that anymore, unless you count the Islamic extremest fundamentalists, who do inflict bloody mayhem on innocents.[/QUOTE]

America has those too. So many shootings.

 

[eohrnberger]

That's the kind of religion that has no merit in civil society and it's proper to mock it if not to wipe it out completely. We're spending billions killing fanatics in the middle east but we patronize them here. There is a contradiction in that.

Umm, no. We are patronizing them here as well, just select groups of them.



You've made mention of the long and bloody history of religion, and, yes, that's true, but amongst the now living, there's not much of that anymore, unless you count the Islamic extremest fundamentalists, who do inflict bloody mayhem on innocents.[/QUOTE]

America has those too. So many shootings.[/QUOTE]

American shootings would appear to be more crime and mental health related more so than any religion.

Now the quoting was altered, so I'm not sure which religion you are referring to with:

[/quote]That's the kind of religion that has no merit in civil society and it's proper to mock it if not to wipe it out completely.[/quote]

Perhaps you can clarify?

 

[D_NATURED]

That's quite an accusation to make. Not one that'll pass without citation, and not citation from some biased source, as I've come to understand that the media hates religion and the religious almost as much a pro-2nd amendment people.

Why, by accurately reporting that religious fanatics around the world like to arm themselves with guns which then kill innocent people? It must seem hateful when you're used to everyone kissing your asses or be tortured. The media was much more "fair" when the church had them by the balls.

I think what you're really asking for is license to pretend anything, no matter how crazy, with impunity from the scrutiny and laws of rational men. What you should be fighting for is freedom of conscience but how can you say you have free conscience when you have signed a contract with a phantom under the duress of an imagined spiritual threat. Grow up and quit expecting everyone else to patronize you.

So who, by name, has Pence subjugated? Do we have any public or private act that substantiates this? No, trump shooting his mouth off doesn't count for much either.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/25/us/indiana-governor-mike-pence-signs-abortion-bill.html

You ask a very ignorant question because the truth is, in a perfect world, we wouldn't have any desire to name the people who have abortions any more than we would care to name those who have face lifts. Women deserve privacy in their own person. Therefore, to be specific, every woman in his jurisdiction is oppressed by him, subjugated to one man's magical reasoning. He has abandoned his constituents to a pervasive self deception that compels the affected to imagine an invisible bond that should be more precious than the real human to human bond. In their magical world they can hurt you on Earth to be your savior in their own subjective heaven. With a straight face and a full heart they pat themselves on the back for ****ing you over. What a cruel joke is Mike Pence's god.

How, by any rational moral code, can you allow his sort of thinking to go unchallenged?

Umm, no. We are patronizing them here as well, just select groups of them.

I get it. You think liberals have a preference for Islam. Well, I'm a liberal and I think it's as dumb as Christianity. I guess the problem is that when you're a magical thinker like Mike Pence and, perhaps, yourself, you begin to define everyone by the standard you use on yourself. Mike Pence said he's a Christian first an American second and a Republican third. Placing faith into your one slot indicates something about you, that you probably look at others as a faith first, a nationality second and a political entity third. But where does humanity enter into the conservative equation? How far down on the list is not being a douche? Maybe it should be higher?

Faith that relies on ignorance and apathy towards others is a sickness, a pathology not a gift.

You've made mention of the long and bloody history of religion, and, yes, that's true, but amongst the now living, there's not much of that anymore, unless you count the Islamic extremest fundamentalists, who do inflict bloody mayhem on innocents.

Of course they're included. I never said the Christians were exclusively violent. However, the Christian faiths exist today largely within secular democracies. where laws exist to balance the crazy. The only Christian theocracies left are the Vatican and Utah. Meanwhile, the Muslims are in need of a spiritual makeover, and soon.

All of that being said, I have no doubt that Mike Pence and friends, if the secular American government didn't outlaw it, would gladly stone people to death or, as Trump boasted, hang them all. So, when I hear about religious "freedom" laws they always smell a lot like plain ol' bull****. One more step in giving license to violent morons as my right to freedom from any religion-based legislation is trampled again.

 

[eohrnberger]

Why, by accurately reporting that religious fanatics around the world like to arm themselves with guns which then kill innocent people? It must seem hateful when you're used to everyone kissing your asses or be tortured. The media was much more "fair" when the church had them by the balls.

See here, I think you are talking about some forms of Islamic fundamentalism. Hard to find any other religion that is it's equal in this regard, as the vast majority of them have moved forward beyond that for the last, oh, some couple of 100s of years or so.

I think what you're really asking for is license to pretend anything, no matter how crazy, with impunity from the scrutiny and laws of rational men. What you should be fighting for is freedom of conscience but how can you say you have free conscience when you have signed a contract with a phantom under the duress of an imagined spiritual threat. Grow up and quit expecting everyone else to patronize you.

There is a difference between respecting, tolerating, even ignoring and belittling and mocking. Not belittling and not mocking does not equal patronizing. I think you are conflating those.

 

[eohrnberger]

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/25/us/indiana-governor-mike-pence-signs-abortion-bill.html

You ask a very ignorant question because the truth is, in a perfect world, we wouldn't have any desire to name the people who have abortions any more than we would care to name those who have face lifts. Women deserve privacy in their own person. Therefore, to be specific, every woman in his jurisdiction is oppressed by him, subjugated to one man's magical reasoning. He has abandoned his constituents to a pervasive self deception that compels the affected to imagine an invisible bond that should be more precious than the real human to human bond. In their magical world they can hurt you on Earth to be your savior in their own subjective heaven. With a straight face and a full heart they pat themselves on the back for ****ing you over. What a cruel joke is Mike Pence's god.

The cited article makes no mention that I saw of altering a Woman's privacy.

The simple fact of the mater is that an abortion is in fact the termination of a human life. The often lauded by the left Europe, for the vast majority of nations, have abortion restrictions at 20 weeks, yet the left here object to similar measures, or in fact any restrictions, of being passed into law here. Odd. Is not human life valued?

You speak as if you know Pence's mind, "one man's magical reasoning", "magical world", so you can read Pence's mind? Have you actually spoken to him about this? No? So you are projecting what you want to project, to keep your hatred stirred up. Don't think that's all that healthy.

"What a cruel joke is Mike Pence's god."
There have been thousands of theologians who have thought about and commented the question of 'Why does God allow bad things to happen'.

That which you refer to is your projection on another, that's kinda a one sided argument that you'll always win.

How, by any rational moral code, can you allow his sort of thinking to go unchallenged?

I think I just did. For that particular statute, it is a matter for Indiana voters, and their elected officials to sort out. My position that at present it is the law of the land, with reasonable restrictions. Not much other than that to say about it until the law is changed, and I rather doubt that it will, so I've just accepted it.

I get it. You think liberals have a preference for Islam. Well, I'm a liberal and I think it's as dumb as Christianity. I guess the problem is that when you're a magical thinker like Mike Pence and, perhaps, yourself, you begin to define everyone by the standard you use on yourself.

The media never dares to treat Muslims as they do Christians for fear of being labeled an Islamophobe by their liberal echo chamber peers. Mistreating, mocking, insulting Christians comes with no consequences, so they undefended and safer targets for them.

Mike Pence said he's a Christian first an American second and a Republican third. Placing faith into your one slot indicates something about you, that you probably look at others as a faith first, a nationality second and a political entity third. But where does humanity enter into the conservative equation? How far down on the list is not being a douche? Maybe it should be higher?

So in the US it is no longer allowed for someone to practice their faith? Kinda thought that was one of the nation's foundations.

Faith that relies on ignorance and apathy towards others is a sickness, a pathology not a gift.



Of course they're included. I never said the Christians were exclusively violent. However, the Christian faiths exist today largely within secular democracies. where laws exist to balance the crazy. The only Christian theocracies left are the Vatican and Utah. Meanwhile, the Muslims are in need of a spiritual makeover, and soon.

All of that being said, I have no doubt that Mike Pence and friends, if the secular American government didn't outlaw it, would gladly stone people to death or, as Trump boasted, hang them all. So, when I hear about religious "freedom" laws they always smell a lot like plain ol' bull****. One more step in giving license to violent morons as my right to freedom from any religion-based legislation is trampled again.

There's no proof of this, I think you are projecting again.

 

[blarg]

well good I'm glad you don't think it's insanity.

Agree.

here is where I disagree. People believe God speaks to them through books through synagogue or church through all sorts of avenues. I don't think that's crazy.

its mildly insane to believe your wishful thinking

look i dont know how you diagnose insanity other then noting a difference whit what some one perceives compared to what most people perceive

do people all get the same message from these books and places of worship more importantly do any of these divine conversations contradict 1 another because if they do at least some one is crazy well ok the gods might be being jerks and deliberately telling people incompatible stuff but i think insanity is more likely

 

[OlNate]

The group that persecuted every religion in the world, persecuted everybody not a white male christian in this country for its history, slaughters indians, had slaves, lynched black people, etc etc etc with our deplorable history is going to whine about bigotries of the left? LOL

Because religious people can't defend anything any non religious person has to say so they have to deflect and whine about fake persecution. Gee, like that argument isn't the most lame and unoriginal deflection out there.

Oh, by the way, most liberals are christian. Many aren't assholes about it trying to shove it down everybody's throats and they actually follow the bible and aren't judgemental, and follow what Jesus taught, the basis of the entire religion.

lol...I feel like we agree, but at the same time I feel like you're coming at me, bro... haha I mean, definitely a spicy response, but you may be preaching to the choir (excuse the pun, I just turned 40 yesterday, I'm allowed to make Dad jokes now). If you think that there isn't a general distrust of Christians in the left leaning community, or that the same people who would puff up about other demographics being talked **** to like Christians are in some circles, but make some kind of weird allowance for the generalizations, derision, and vilification, so long as it's pointed at Christians, well...either you're lying or blissfully sheltered. I will, however, repeat from my first post, that this kind of response has been certainly earned, if you consider the Church as a whole, rather than understanding the differences between denominations, or simply consider people individually. Nobody's whining here. At least, not me. But it is what it is, and the word bigotry, as defined in the dictionary, was picked deliberately. If anything, Christians are to hard Left what Muslims are to the hard Right.

As you point out:

Many aren't assholes about it trying to shove it down everybody's throats and they actually follow the bible and aren't judgemental, and follow what Jesus taught, the basis of the entire religion.

What gets frustrating, if I have to "whine" about anything, is that these people, who, trying to live the fundamental teachings of Christ, rather than the weaponized version that some Christian conservative folks tout, often find themselves far more aligned with the social goals of the Left, but have a hard time being accepted as a part of that due to their religious beliefs. But that being said, I think that all Christians have work ahead of them, for the very reasons you lay out, to earn that trust and acceptance. There are no reparations I can pay to make up for what other people have done, just like anyone of privilege who's ancestors engaged in ****ty practices to secure their privilege. All we can do is commit to being better ourselves, do what we can to ensure the same mistakes are not made again in our sphere of influence, and try and teach our kids to be decent human beings. But, while certainly not looking for sympathy, that's doesn't change the facts, or make them suck less.

We good?

 

[OlNate]

And that's the problem right there. Its the reason I left religion many decades ago.

Yup, I hear you. There has been a lot of reform in some denominations, though. Some churches are starting to get it. It makes it tougher that a lot of the folks of a mind to support the changes the church needs to take on have already given up on it, but I know personally of very conservative congregations who have undergone big changes, even in their most set in their ways members. I know of one congregation that literally ripped itself in half in order to drive those changes, because they thought it was important to do so. It's not all bad news.

 

[CLAX1911]

its mildly insane to believe your wishful thinking

Why?

look i dont know how you diagnose insanity other then noting a difference whit what some one perceives compared to what most people perceive

Most people believe in a god of some sort.

do people all get the same message from these books and places of worship more importantly do any of these divine conversations contradict 1 another because if they do at least some one is crazy well ok the gods might be being jerks and deliberately telling people incompatible stuff but i think insanity is more likely

Why don't you find out for yourself.

 

[Sweden]

Oh no I have full of busy body atheists will think most of the population is dippy. Whatever shall we do?

Make that most of the American population. What should you do? Improve your science education - start by sacking any creationists in a school.

 

[blarg]

Why?

Most people believe in a god of some sort.

Why don't you find out for yourself.

because its delusion

and most peoel would have to be geintg the message your geitng for that to count as most peoples perception

 

[CLAX1911]

Make that most of the American population. What should you do? Improve your science education - start by sacking any creationists in a school.

Well first science doesn't negate God. The second most religious people are not creation fundamentalists.

 

[CLAX1911]

because its delusion

Well show me the proof that God doesn't exist if you can't then you can't say it is a delusion.

and most peoel would have to be geintg the message your geitng for that to count as most peoples perception

I don't know what you're trying to say here.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Behar’s sneer and the applause it received from the studio audience is a nice in-kind contribution to the Trump 2020 campaign.

Do you think Trump believes in God? Does he believe in God when he's boasting about groping women? Does he believe in God when on the Access Holywood tape he boasted about trying bed a married woman? Does he believe in God when he claimed he never had to ask God for forgiveness? Did he believe in God when he was having sex with a porn star while his wife was recovering from delivering his baby?

I object to the religious intolerance of Joy Behar and Bill Maher. She obviously doesn't understand what Christians mean when they say they hear the voice of God. But nothing has done more harm to religion than the hypocrisy of the Christian Right. They have brought disrepute to the faith. It's hard to take Pence seriously about listening to Jesus when he's standing by Trump. A real man of faith would disassociate from a man like Trump.

 

[blarg]

Well show me the proof that God doesn't exist if you can't then you can't say it is a delusion.


I don't know what you're trying to say here.

so im not delusional if i tell you magical leprechauns are communicating with me and no one else hears them

sorry ill try again

in order for your communication with gods to count as common perception by most people not only would they have to hear the gods they would have to be getting the same kind of messages form the same triggers that precede the messages your getting and non believers should get the same message if they set off the same triggering event you can only hear the voices if you believe is not a exactly supporting sanity and believers that have differences with you should also get the same kind of message or it looks like your just bouncing what you want to hear off of yourself rather then communicating with an external being

 

[CLAX1911]

so im not delusional if i tell you magical leprechauns are communicating with me and no one else hears them

Leprechauns are fictional. Texts synagogues and the like are not.

sorry ill try again

in order for your communication with gods to count as common perception by most people not only would they have to hear the gods they would have to be getting the same kind of messages form the same triggers that precede the messages your getting and non believers should get the same message if they set off the same triggering event you can only hear the voices if you believe is not a exactly supporting sanity and believers that have differences with you should also get the same kind of message or it looks like your just bouncing what you want to hear off of yourself rather then communicating with an external being

people do get the same message a lot of the times that's why there's more than one Catholic or more than one Jew. And non-believers would get the same message. If you went to mass you would do the same thing that all the Catholics hear.

You're allowed to think it's bologna but until you prove it to be bologna you can't say it's a delusion

 

[blarg]

Leprechauns are fictional. Texts synagogues and the like are not.

people do get the same message a lot of the times that's why there's more than one Catholic or more than one Jew. And non-believers would get the same message. If you went to mass you would do the same thing that all the Catholics hear.

You're allowed to think it's bologna but until you prove it to be bologna you can't say it's a delusion

gods seem to be just as finical so leprechauns are just as likely to sen you messages only you can here while reading or at church

do the Jews and Catholics get the same messages?

and we are talking about the gods communicating right not just letting to whatever a preacher is saying i get we would all hear that

 

[CLAX1911]

gods seem to be just as finical so leprechauns are just as likely to sen you messages only you can here while reading or at church

but there's evidence for God's I didn't say it's definitive evidence so don't bark up that tree but there is evidence meaning there's the Earth there is existence what some people would call creation. There are no pots of gold sitting at the end of rainbow so leprechauns aren't the same thing.

do the Jews and Catholics get the same messages?

what difference would that make

and we are talking about the gods communicating right not just letting to whatever a preacher is saying i get we would all hear that

I don't understand what you mean here.

 

[Vadinho]

Behar’s sneer and the applause it received from the studio audience is a nice in-kind contribution to the Trump 2020 campaign.

For bonus points, who said this?



Anyone remember? Usual suspects maybe?

https://nypost.com/2018/02/17/faith-is-no-longer-a-virtue-in-america/

If faith relies upon devotion to a religion, then good riddance. If faith relies upon all of us using reason, compassion and pragmatism to guide us, then hope will prevail. Religion as a means of guiding any nation is a trap, it leads to stasis, persecution, ignorance and ultimately war. Religion must die a death universal for mankind to survive.

 

[blarg]

but there's evidence for God's I didn't say it's definitive evidence so don't bark up that tree but there is evidence meaning there's the Earth there is existence what some people would call creation. There are no pots of gold sitting at the end of rainbow so leprechauns aren't the same thing.

what difference would that make

I don't understand what you mean here.

if Jews and catholic dont get the same kind of messages then its probably not from a god but themselves

im trying to make sure we are both still talking about specif messages from gods that are triggered by listening or reading not the words of the speaker or the text itself

 

[CLAX1911]

if Jews and catholic dont get the same kind of messages then its probably not from a god but themselves

Explain why.

im trying to make sure we are both still talking about specif messages from gods that are triggered by listening or reading not the words of the speaker or the text itself

I don't understand what this means either. Please proofread.

 

[CLAX1911]

If faith relies upon devotion to a religion, then good riddance. If faith relies upon all of us using reason, compassion and pragmatism to guide us, then hope will prevail. Religion as a means of guiding any nation is a trap, it leads to stasis, persecution, ignorance and ultimately war. Religion must die a death universal for mankind to survive.

compassion was a product of religion and it often times conflicts with pragmatism.