Faith and politics[W:398]

[D_NATURED]

In a recent discussion of abortion, I was reminded by a philosophical ally that there are those who have faith AND believe in human rights for women. It got me thinking about the difference, not really in the definition of faith, but how its applied. It seems to me there are two ways that faith exists.

For some people their faith is a product of their morality and, by learning the truth, they come to know god. For others, their morality is a product of faith and truth is a pre-existing shape to which reality must be molded. No doubt, some people possess such a rigid idea of morality and faith that no new information can be allowed to challenge it. Others are happy to see their morality and faith evolve with the addition of new facts.

So, my question is, does anyone believe that what their god prefers can be different than what makes sense for human, civil society? Or, do you believe that what is right for humans MUST naturally be consistent with morality and adjust your faith accordingly.

Would you describe your faith as rigid or flexible and how does that make it work better for you?

How do you reconcile your faith when what your faith demands is inconsistent with what you or others need to be happy?

Just curious...

 

[HowardBThiname]

I can't speak to the religious side because I'm not religious, but I can say that I don't think one needs to be religious to be ethical.

I live in a very religious area in the Midwest and we have many types of the faithful here. Some faiths seem to be more accepting of others. I often help at disasters with a Mennonite group. They all know I'm an atheist and they are totally accepting of me, calling me when they need my help. I also live around many evangelicals. Most are wonderful, but some will not associate with me due to my non-belief.

I also have Jehovah's Witness neighbors who I'm prone to ignoring, not because they're not friendly, they are, but I'm not fond of a group that opposes allowing its children (or adults) to die before they'd approve blood transfusions. Not my cup of tea, so socially, we move in different circles. I'd still be happy to lend them a hand if they were in need.

I think it all depends on whether a person is comfortable allowing their religion to dictate their life rather than enhance it.

Just my two cents.

 

[joG]

In a recent discussion of abortion, I was reminded by a philosophical ally that there are those who have faith AND believe in human rights for women. It got me thinking about the difference, not really in the definition of faith, but how its applied. It seems to me there are two ways that faith exists.

For some people their faith is a product of their morality and, by learning the truth, they come to know god. For others, their morality is a product of faith and truth is a pre-existing shape to which reality must be molded. No doubt, some people possess such a rigid idea of morality and faith that no new information can be allowed to challenge it. Others are happy to see their morality and faith evolve with the addition of new facts.

So, my question is, does anyone believe that what their god prefers can be different than what makes sense for human, civil society? Or, do you believe that what is right for humans MUST naturally be consistent with morality and adjust your faith accordingly.

Would you describe your faith as rigid or flexible and how does that make it work better for you?

How do you reconcile your faith when what your faith demands is inconsistent with what you or others need to be happy?

Just curious...

I have faith that we can do anything we want and that, if we are wrong, we will land in hell.

 

[Ikari]

I can't speak to the religious side because I'm not religious, but I can say that I don't think one needs to be religious to be ethical.

I would say that morality and ethics are not found in gods, but in Humanity. We're the ones who come to understand them, we write them into our religions to reinforce them.

 

[Daisy]

I am a Jehovah's Witness...my faith is very important to me...the most important thing in my life...I strive to keep that faith strong by reading and studying God's Word, for I do believe there is where the ultimate truth lies...truth about God and truth of why we are here and how we can live our lives according to how we were created to live, in order to be the happiest we can be now and in the future...outside of that truth, there is no life...

I think Paul described it aptly in 1 Timothy 6:12,19 when he spoke of "the real life" because this life is not the life God intended us humans to live, this life is only temporary, "the real life" everlasting is yet to come...

"Fight the fine fight of the faith; get a firm hold on the everlasting life for which you were called and you offered the fine public declaration in front of many witnesses...safely treasuring up for themselves a fine foundation for the future, so that they may get a firm hold on the real life."


I suppose there are those who think God's laws are too restrictive/rigid for them to follow, but the truth is, once you study and understand the reasoning behind those laws, you grow to realize those laws are designed for man's own good and if followed, they offer the best way of living...now and forever...

“This is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.” 1 John 5:3

As for politics, Jesus chose to remain neutral regarding the politics of his day, teaching his followers how to find the right balance between their responsibilities toward God and their obligations toward secular governments, all the while remaining faithful to God...I also follow his lead...

 

[stevecanuck]

So, my question is, does anyone believe that what their god prefers can be different than what makes sense for human, civil society?

Yes, about 1.5 billion people believe that (assuming every Muslim slavishly devours "God's" words). Qur'an verse 2:216 says, "Fighting has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you. But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not."

 

[stevecanuck]

I am a Jehovah's Witness...my faith is very important to me...the most important thing in my life...I strive to keep that faith strong by reading and studying God's Word, for I do believe there is where the ultimate truth lies...truth about God and truth of why we are here and how we can live our lives according to how we were created to live, in order to be the happiest we can be now and in the future...outside of that truth, there is no life...

I think Paul described it aptly in 1 Timothy 6:12,19 when he spoke of "the real life" because this life is not the life God intended us humans to live, this life is only temporary, "the real life" everlasting is yet to come...

"Fight the fine fight of the faith; get a firm hold on the everlasting life for which you were called and you offered the fine public declaration in front of many witnesses...safely treasuring up for themselves a fine foundation for the future, so that they may get a firm hold on the real life."


I suppose there are those who think God's laws are too restrictive/rigid for them to follow, but the truth is, once you study and understand the reasoning behind those laws, you grow to realize those laws are designed for man's own good and if followed, they offer the best way of living...now and forever...

If you substitute "Muslim" for "Jehovah's Witness", "Mohamed" for "Paul", and the "Qur'an and Hadiths" for "Timothy", you will have a perfect understanding of Islam. Both of you are convinced beyond any hope of rational thought that you are following the will of what is in truth the empty sky. "God" help us.

 

[HowardBThiname]

I would say that morality and ethics are not found in gods, but in Humanity. We're the ones who come to understand them, we write them into our religions to reinforce them.

I agree 100%!

 

[Daisy]

If you substitute "Muslim" for "Jehovah's Witness", "Mohamed" for "Paul", and the "Qur'an and Hadiths" for "Timothy", you will have a perfect understanding of Islam. Both of you are convinced beyond any hope of rational thought that you are following the will of what is in truth the empty sky. "God" help us.

You could not be further from the truth...if everyone believed the way we do, there would be complete peace on the earth...no wars, no fighting, no killing, no man would rule over another man...all men would be united in love...

 

[stevecanuck]

You could not be further from the truth...if everyone believed the way we do, there would be complete peace on the earth...no wars, no fighting, no killing, no man would rule over another man...all men would be united in love...

That's not the point. I'm talking about professing faith. Comparing what each faith teaches is another story entirely. Go back and read your original statement with the substitutions I suggested and you'll see I'm talking about surety of belief.

 

[zyzygy]

You could not be further from the truth...if everyone believed the way we do, there would be complete peace on the earth...no wars, no fighting, no killing, no man would rule over another man...all men would be united in love...

And a lot of people would die because they needed a blood transfusion.

 

[zyzygy]

That's not the point. I'm talking about professing faith. Comparing what each faith teaches is another story entirely. Go back and read your original statement with the substitutions I suggested and you'll see I'm talking about surety of belief.

For once I agree with you!

 

[Daisy]

That's not the point. I'm talking about professing faith. Comparing what each faith teaches is another story entirely. Go back and read your original statement with the substitutions I suggested and you'll see I'm talking about surety of belief.

No...it is you who is missing the point...

 

[zyzygy]

No...it is you who is missing the point...

No, that would be you.

 

[stevecanuck]

No...it is you who is missing the point...

I see you've chosen to pretend you don't know what I'm talking about. Go for it.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

I would say that morality and ethics are not found in gods, but in Humanity. We're the ones who come to understand them, we write them into our religions to reinforce them.

"Man created god in his image and declared it 'good'".

 

[Daisy]

I see you've chosen to pretend you don't know what I'm talking about. Go for it.

I see you've mistaken me for someone who wishes to argue with you...

 

[Barny]

“This is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.” 1 John 5:3QUOTE]

As a person raised as a JW but unfortunately born gay I can tell you his commandments are burdensome. Try a lifetime of fighting the desires to procreate, the desires that god created us with and then get back to me on that one!!

 

[Daisy]

“This is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.” 1 John 5:3QUOTE]

As a person raised as a JW but unfortunately born gay I can tell you his commandments are burdensome. Try a lifetime of fighting the desires to procreate, the desires that god created us with and then get back to me on that one!!

Has your way of life been better for you? Are you happy?

 

[Barny]

Has your way of life been better for you? Are you happy?

Since I've stopped associating with JW's... in most aspects of my life, honestly YES (however life is a bit difficult at the moment in Australia as we are going through a marriage equality debate at the moment and gay people are being vilified by some religious organizations). I'm no longer burdened with the shame, guilt, judgement from the religion and family. I'm content in the person I am. I live by the golden rule. I'm prepared to stand before God at the time of judgment and state my case. I'll sure be asking him why I was born gay if he didn't want us to act on it as I certainly did not choose this "lifestyle".

 

[Daisy]

Since I've stopped associating with JW's... in most aspects of my life, honestly YES (however life is a bit difficult at the moment in Australia as we are going through a marriage equality debate at the moment and gay people are being vilified by some religious organizations). I'm no longer burdened with the shame, guilt, judgement from the religion and family. I'm content in the person I am. I live by the golden rule. I'm prepared to stand before God at the time of judgment and state my case. I'll sure be asking him why I was born gay if he didn't want us to act on it as I certainly did not choose this "lifestyle".

If it's any consolation to you, we all have feelings and emotions we are born with in this imperfect world that we have to fight against...the fleshly versus the spiritual...I cannot say I know how you feel because I don't and I can't even imagine...I can only hope you have have found peace...hopefully some day, you will get your answers...

 

[devildavid]

If it's any consolation to you, we all have feelings and emotions we are born with in this imperfect world that we have to fight against...the fleshly versus the spiritual...I cannot say I know how you feel because I don't and I can't even imagine...I can only hope you have have found peace...hopefully some day, you will get your answers...

And how does anyone recognize for certain what feelings and emotions we have to fight against? Maybe your feelings for your religion are what you should be fighting against.

 

[D_NATURED]

Since I've stopped associating with JW's... in most aspects of my life, honestly YES (however life is a bit difficult at the moment in Australia as we are going through a marriage equality debate at the moment and gay people are being vilified by some religious organizations). I'm no longer burdened with the shame, guilt, judgement from the religion and family. I'm content in the person I am. I live by the golden rule. I'm prepared to stand before God at the time of judgment and state my case. I'll sure be asking him why I was born gay if he didn't want us to act on it as I certainly did not choose this "lifestyle".

I appreciate your honesty and empathize with your struggle. I'm straight but I am vicariously connected to the gay community through my atheism. Interestingly enough, in a community that self-limits dogma, gender and sexuality are more representative of a spectrum than a binary state. The religious groups who feel entitled to oppress you are demonstrative of the rigid version of faith I spoke of. I don't believe you will be judged before a deity, especially not for being gay, no intelligent people do.

Understand that you are a witness to and participant in a major step in human cultural evolution. The growing acceptance of homosexuality, as a valid inclination, is a new thing to western culture. The unyielding proponents of a specific hateful faith are being exposed for their ignorance and begrudgingly are opening their minds. In secular society, the marketplace of ideas allows righteous critics of bigotry to speak where they would have had to stay mum in a theocracy. Gratefully, many more are speaking out against hate.

Even within my own lifespan, the changes to our society have been profound. I'm sure that to the rigidly faithful, this portends the end of the world. Well, in an intellectual sense, to them, it is.

 

[D_NATURED]

I think it all depends on whether a person is comfortable allowing their religion to dictate their life rather than enhance it.

I think that's what I was getting at. Faith can be wings or shackles, for yourself or others.

Just my two cents.

It's worth every penny. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[D_NATURED]

I have faith that we can do anything we want and that, if we are wrong, we will land in hell.

Well, if there's some leverage against you, you can't do anything you want. It's like saying "don't sign the contract if you don't want to" when you have your gun to a guy's head. I hope I'm right and there is no hell. I hope that life is just a unique organization of energy and that when we die, it becomes less organized but doesn't go away. It just waits to be reorganized again. The circle of life and death and recycling material and life is a beautiful thing to be a part of. It allows us to live again and again.

It truly saddens me that people choose to live as if they are on a thin moral tightrope over a pit of demons. What a waste of potential joy. When they do that, when they rule themselves in fear, they put everyone's joy at risk to satisfy their anxiety. That fact is being painted in red all over the middle east.