Faith and politics[W:398]

[RAMOSS]

Aaaand how is this any different than the context in which I used it? You are literally agreeing with me that Marx felt that Religion was bad for humanity and --in historical context -- he saw Communism was the real cure. This is the whole freaking reason why Communism and Atheism have been inextricably linked throughout Communism's sordid history. Atheism and Communism have always been connected because Marxists literally believe that religion is an addiction making the population sick and communism as the cure for that addiction.



LOL! No, in context it is exactly the same. Marx saw religion as weakening the population and Communism as the cure. That is absolutely what can be derived directly from the attributed quote.

RAMOSS coming to the defense of atheism:

You certainly didn't understand what I wrote. You are letting your preconceptions get in the way of understanding. He also saw it as bringing comfort to people. It's not quite as the kind of binary thinking you are promoting. It's not either/or if/then.. but has many shades of grey between it. Preconceptions and binary thinking is causing you to come to incorrect conclusions.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Indeed. This is why over the years I have realized that most arguments in favor of religion versus atheism are kind of pointless. I can only speak to my own journey and nobody else's. Having been on both sides I do find it hard to imagine people actually enjoying the life I left... if they do then good for them, I guess?

We all base our value judgments and beliefs on our own experience, our own logic, our own ability to reason, our choice to believe. Anybody who understands and embraces that universal truth will rarely wander into the realm of ad hominem insults to those who think, believe, choose differently from themselves and are far less apt to be unobjective, hateful and intolerant of opinion different from their own.

 

[Jaygodmedia]

i'd post sept 9, 2010 picture of obama surrounded by jesuit trained "intelligence" community types but evidently i'm not allowed to .... Keep getting "it's too big" notice even after i cut the picture in half

search engine: Obama surrounded by jesuit trained .. First few hits .... Trump also jesuit trained at fordham

what?

 

[stevecanuck]

Well I agree with your comment to an extent...one of us is right and one of us is wrong but I won't tell you which...I'll keep you in suspence...

There is one HUGE difference...I will wait on God to take action because that is what the Bible commands us to do...

“Take your position, stand still and see the salvation of Jehovah in your behalf.” 2 Chronicles 20:17

Whereas the Qur'an tells Muslims that God could easily defeat his enemies, but in order to test the fealty of believers, he requires them to do the wet work.

 

[stevecanuck]

False. Communists have a history of rounding up and executing clergy for the crime of having a religion. They kill in the name of eradicating religion, which is in fact killing in the name of atheism.



There is not a difference. On top of the slaughter of people for practicing religion these countries all murdered millions in pursuit of a broken secular cult of science.. be it in eugenics, or failed farm policy or flawed civil engineering projects that couldn't be questioned because the state in these Communist countries were deemed infallible.

You make a good argument, but I think you go a little off the rails with your conclusion. It's not so much about atheism as it is about control. Is it possible they killed priests to eliminate them as competition rather than for their belief in and of itself?

 

[jmotivator]

You make a good argument, but I think you go a little off the rails with your conclusion. It's not so much about atheism as it is about control. Is it possible they killed priests to eliminate them as competition rather than for their belief in and of itself?

Well sure, then we can say that killing in the name of religion isn't so much about God as it is about control. Certainly anyone killing in the name of Christianity isn't really following Jesus who specifically said it is not up to us to judge or enforce God's laws because we believers are no less sinners than those we'd want to judge.

 

[D_NATURED]

It's funny because most progressives tell people they shouldn't worry about Islamic terror because the chances it will effect you is very low. But this is also a question you should speak with a Muslim about... you certainly aren't fearing Christian terrorists when you get on that plane.

I don't know what progressives you speak to but many of us understand that ANY form of magical thinking is a threat. I think they defend Islam because there is a disproportionate hysteria over their acts of magical violence. The greatest threat of terrorism in the US is, by far, from right wing radicals, who are also NOT atheists. I don't fear christians the same way I do Islamists because they are, to a large degree, collared by our nation's secular laws. Many of our religious battles have been fought in court rather than on the street. No doubt, this nation could have taken a different path.

If you recall, this country was settled first by religious fanatics from England and, in its early history, religion played a very major role in how the states were defined. This place could have easily become a number of different, small theocracies which, no doubt, would have fought each other to the bitter end, like in the middle east. So, I don't automatically fear christian terror but I'm sure as Hell not naive enough to imagine it's not a possibility. Even though the books are different, the magic is the same. It declares itself to be the truth and the ultimate moral authority, even over those who don't believe in gods.

I believe that, if christian influence ever wanes sufficiently, they will begin to utilize tactics that are as brutal as those of Islamic extremists. For the moment, they are placated by the myriad of religion-positive messages and platitudes to faith that inundate our culture and media. We can see though, that as certain christian establishments are questioned or dis empowered in the name of inclusiveness the paranoia and anti-government sentiment has grown among the christian right. That, I fear, is the beginning of a greater internal religious struggle in America, potentially a bloody one.

 

[D_NATURED]

LOL. Who was it who argued that religion is the opiate of the masses? Didn't he have something to do with Communism? :lamo

Lenin argued that Atheism is inseparable from Communism.

The Soviet state promoted Atheist terror organizations like the "League of Militant Atheists" to terrorize Soviet citizens who tried to retain their religion in the atheist state.



As does non-religious violence. In fact, non-religion violence is much more prevalent in human history. It turns out that humans like to kill each other. Christianity is one of the few ideologies in this world that teaches not to kill one another.



What religion were the Huns murdering in the name of? I would say that Atheism wasn't fully weaponized until Communism, but violence without religious justification is rampant throughout human history.



It would have been in Korea and Vietnam.. were there fewer war wounds in those confrontations?



LOL. Absolutely false. Humans seek a higher power at all times. Atheism was derived from a search for meaning without a deity. Can you name a time in the history of the human race where the majority of humankind was atheist? If you can't then how can you claim that atheism is the default?

Atheism was the default for all of us until some adult saddled us with oppressive faith as children. I wasn't born thinking there was a magical god, it was forced upon me, as a credulous child. Ironically, our evolution has made children trusting of whatever wild-ass tale their parents come up with. Thus, American children are convinced that talking snakes and water-walking hippies are real and children in Saudi Arabia are forced to believe that Muhammad flew to heaven on a winged horse. Both takes are equally fantastic and no adult who hadn't had it beaten into them as children would believe it. Believers use the fact of our childhood impressionability against us to perpetuate a fabricated cultural glue that divides us as much as it bonds us.

For me, I was born atheist, was indoctrinated and threatened into faith and then had to, slowly over time, pry myself from the grip of magic. At long last, I have found a community of non-believers who have given me new hope for humanity, that we can exist together for human reasons with no magical threats or rewards to corrupt our intentions.

 

[jmotivator]

I don't know what progressives you speak to but many of us understand that ANY form of magical thinking is a threat. I think they defend Islam because there is a disproportionate hysteria over their acts of magical violence. The greatest threat of terrorism in the US is, by far, from right wing radicals, who are also NOT atheists. I don't fear christians the same way I do Islamists because they are, to a large degree, collared by our nation's secular laws. Many of our religious battles have been fought in court rather than on the street. No doubt, this nation could have taken a different path.

If you recall, this country was settled first by religious fanatics from England and, in its early history, religion played a very major role in how the states were defined. This place could have easily become a number of different, small theocracies which, no doubt, would have fought each other to the bitter end, like in the middle east. So, I don't automatically fear christian terror but I'm sure as Hell not naive enough to imagine it's not a possibility. Even though the books are different, the magic is the same. It declares itself to be the truth and the ultimate moral authority, even over those who don't believe in gods.

I believe that, if christian influence ever wanes sufficiently, they will begin to utilize tactics that are as brutal as those of Islamic extremists. For the moment, they are placated by the myriad of religion-positive messages and platitudes to faith that inundate our culture and media. We can see though, that as certain christian establishments are questioned or dis empowered in the name of inclusiveness the paranoia and anti-government sentiment has grown among the christian right. That, I fear, is the beginning of a greater internal religious struggle in America, potentially a bloody one.

That is some interesting dogma in that faith of yours.

 

[jmotivator]

Atheism was the default for all of us until some adult saddled us with oppressive faith as children. I wasn't born thinking there was a magical god, it was forced upon me, as a credulous child. Ironically, our evolution has made children trusting of whatever wild-ass tale their parents come up with. Thus, American children are convinced that talking snakes and water-walking hippies are real and children in Saudi Arabia are forced to believe that Muhammad flew to heaven on a winged horse. Both takes are equally fantastic and no adult who hadn't had it beaten into them as children would believe it. Believers use the fact of our childhood impressionability against us to perpetuate a fabricated cultural glue that divides us as much as it bonds us.

For me, I was born atheist, was indoctrinated and threatened into faith and then had to, slowly over time, pry myself from the grip of magic. At long last, I have found a community of non-believers who have given me new hope for humanity, that we can exist together for human reasons with no magical threats or rewards to corrupt our intentions.

By your definition of "default" then atheism and ignorance are the default... but then you need to show that children have no concept of a higher power without being taught before you even can establish that dubious feather in the cap of atheism. Furthermore you would have to fit in to your argument a good excuse for why these supposed little atheists also happen to to completely lack self control and a functional concept of right and wrong.

I mean, if you want to prove that antisocial, ignorant atheism is the default then go right ahead... but that juice doesn't seem worth the squeeze.

 

[D_NATURED]

That is some interesting dogma in that faith of yours.

It's not dogma and it's sure as hell not faith. Calling atheism faith is like calling disbelief in Santa faith. God is obviously fabricated to order by each culture, just as Santa was created or transformed by western society, largely, for advertising purposes. Atheism, however, is learning history without it threatening your future, it's a reality without magic and it's a sense of dread that comes with the understanding of REAL dogma of the type the religious espouse generationally.

Obviously, you can't argue against anything I wrote so you must dismiss it, whole cloth, as "dogma". Well, that's an ironic bit of projection from someone who found god in the abandonment of reason. That's where we all find it really. When you see that, you'll be a different person.

 

[jmotivator]

It's not dogma and it's sure as hell not faith. Calling atheism faith is like calling disbelief in Santa faith. God is obviously fabricated to order by each culture, just as Santa was created or transformed by western society, largely, for advertising purposes. Atheism, however, is learning history without it threatening your future, it's a reality without magic and it's a sense of dread that comes with the understanding of REAL dogma of the type the religious espouse generationally.

Obviously, you can't argue against anything I wrote so you must dismiss it, whole cloth, as "dogma". Well, that's an ironic bit of projection from someone who found god in the abandonment of reason. That's where we all find it really. When you see that, you'll be a different person.

It absolutely is faith. It is a belief system based on unprovable assumption. Moreover, it is a demonstrably belief system as we have a history of how Christians act when in the minority, both at the very beginning of Christianity, and currently in countries like Syria, Egypt, China, Vietnam, Japan... the list is long. In all of those areas you do not see Christians behaving in the way your faith instruct you that they would.

 

[zyzygy]

It absolutely is faith. It is a belief system based on unprovable assumption. Moreover, it is a demonstrably belief system as we have a history of how Christians act when in the minority, both at the very beginning of Christianity, and currently in countries like Syria, Egypt, China, Vietnam, Japan... the list is long. In all of those areas you do not see Christians behaving in the way your faith instruct you that they would.

Atheism is not faith. Believers make the unprovable assumptions.

 

[jmotivator]

Atheism is not faith. Believers make the unprovable assumptions.

As every atheist does.

 

[devildavid]

It absolutely is faith. It is a belief system based on unprovable assumption. Moreover, it is a demonstrably belief system as we have a history of how Christians act when in the minority, both at the very beginning of Christianity, and currently in countries like Syria, Egypt, China, Vietnam, Japan... the list is long. In all of those areas you do not see Christians behaving in the way your faith instruct you that they would.

Atheism is not a belief system. Period. It is a lack of belief in god(s). Period.

 

[jmotivator]

Atheism is not a belief system. Period. It is a lack of belief in god(s). Period.

It is indistinguishable from a religion given the number of evangelical atheists in these forums. You like to argue that it is a lack of belief and then go on to spout assumptions about what the world would look like without religion, or how a religion would react to being in the minority, and so on. Atheists have their own set of beliefs and they state them regularly.

A true atheist to spend their time taking fellow atheists to task for espousing unprovable beliefs stemming from a supposed lack of belief... and yet...

 

[devildavid]

It is indistinguishable from a religion given the number of evangelical atheists in these forums. You like to argue that it is a lack of belief and then go on to spout assumptions about what the world would look like without religion, or how a religion would react to being in the minority, and so on. Atheists have their own set of beliefs and they state them regularly.

A true atheist to spend their time taking fellow atheists to task for espousing unprovable beliefs stemming from a supposed lack of belief... and yet...

You are completely and absolutely wrong about what atheism is. It is not a belief system; it has no philosophy, no tenets, no dogma, no rules. It is simply a lack of belief in god(s). It is only a position lacking belief in god(s). Unfortunately, it is a term created by theists, instead of being seen as the natural stance a person is born with.

 

[blarg]

As every atheist does.

i dont see any signs of gods existing is an assumption?

 

[blarg]

It is indistinguishable from a religion given the number of evangelical atheists in these forums. You like to argue that it is a lack of belief and then go on to spout assumptions about what the world would look like without religion, or how a religion would react to being in the minority, and so on. Atheists have their own set of beliefs and they state them regularly.

A true atheist to spend their time taking fellow atheists to task for espousing unprovable beliefs stemming from a supposed lack of belief... and yet...

it can be a position on gods in a religion if you add rules to live by and stuff but atheism is not a religion itself

 

[devildavid]

If it makes theists feel any better, theism is simply a belief in god(s). It too has no specific philosophy, tenets, dogmas, etc.

 

[jmotivator]

You are completely and absolutely wrong about what atheism is. It is not a belief system; it has no philosophy, no tenets, no dogma, no rules. It is simply a lack of belief in god(s). It is only a position lacking belief in god(s). Unfortunately, it is a term created by theists, instead of being seen as the natural stance a person is born with.

And you are missing the point that no matter how much you protest the point it is a simple fact that atheists hold a whole host of unprovable beliefs that they present regularly facts against theism.

 

[jmotivator]

i dont see any signs of gods existing is an assumption?

If atheists stopped there you'd have a point. Atheists don't stop there.

 

[blarg]

And you are missing the point that no matter how much you protest the point it is a simple fact that atheists hold a whole host of unprovable beliefs that they present regularly facts against theism.

yes people can do that whats it got to do with not seeing any evidence for gods?

 

[blarg]

If atheists stopped there you'd have a point. Atheists don't stop there.

i dont?

 

[D_NATURED]

It absolutely is faith. It is a belief system based on unprovable assumption. Moreover, it is a demonstrably belief system as we have a history of how Christians act when in the minority, both at the very beginning of Christianity, and currently in countries like Syria, Egypt, China, Vietnam, Japan... the list is long. In all of those areas you do not see Christians behaving in the way your faith instruct you that they would.

There is no assumption in atheism. It is merely living as if there is no god in an environment where there is no evidence, just as I live as if unicorns do not exist in an environment lacking evidence. There is no default judgement about supernature inherent in atheism. Each atheist has his own opinion, which is very different than what you describe. Your claim that a lack of dogma is its own dogma is a troubling bit of idiocy that attempts to make rationalists equally deluded as those who wail at an empty sky.

I know why you equivocate, though, because believing in invisible powers creates a deserved self consciousness in the faithful. I think you guys actually feel stupid for believing quite often and you mitigate that by pretending that atheists do something equally dumb. Well, we don't. If you feel conspicuously self indulgent, as you should, for pretending that you're special for what alternate reality your mind can fabricate, it's because there is a part of you that knows better. Listening more to that part of you will not result in unhappiness, it results in credibility to question others who don't.