Fair comparison?

[spud_meister]

Is it a valid comparison to compare Jesus to Mohammed? One being a desert warlord, the other a god?

 

[X Factor]

It depends on your perspective. For me as a Christian, there is no comparison.

 

[MMC]

Well, I am not a Christian and I still don't think one can even compare the two......as one was born as the God Consciousness personified to man. While with Mohammed, who was not what, could be classified as the God Consciousness carried by Man.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

As a non-believer looking in on both religions, they're actually strikingly similar. They may have had a few different methods, but the end effect on the religion was the same.

 

[tosca1]

Seriously, no comparison at all.

Jesus came as God incarnate - as the Messiah.

Mohammad is merely man. A self-proclaimed prophet sent by whom he claimed to be the God of the OT. Since the OT prophesied about the coming Messiah, who's actually Jesus - then it's like comparing man (Mohammad) to his Creator (who's supposed to have given Mohammad his supposed prophet job!).

That would be like comparing a pet to his master (the only analogy I could come up with at the time of this writing).

 

[Medusa]

Seriously, no comparison at all.

Jesus came as God incarnate - as the Messiah.

Mohammad is merely man. A self-proclaimed prophet sent by whom he claimed to be the God of the OT. Since the OT prophesied about the coming Messiah, who's actually Jesus - then it's like comparing man (Mohammad) to his Creator (who's supposed to have given Mohammad his supposed prophet job!).

That would be like comparing a pet to his master (the only analogy I could come up with at the time of this writing).

:shock:

relax!!!!!!!!!!!!



not everybody has to be a believer!!!!!!!!!!

the first thing some people need to do is to learn how to be reasonable and ethical

 

[tosca1]

[/SIZE][/B]

:shock:

relax!!!!!!!!!!!!



not everybody has to be a believer!!!!!!!!!!

the first thing some people need to do is to learn how to be reasonable and ethical

Well, I was responding to the question from the OP. I should've quoted it...

Is it a valid comparison to compare Jesus to Mohammed? One being a desert warlord, the other a god?

And I gave a logical explanation as to why there is no comparison. That would be like comparing man with God.
Let's not forget that Mohammad believed in the OT God.

Would Mohammad want to be compared to his God? I don't think so....

 

[Fisher]

Sure, one can compare them if they so desire. It is a matter of how one is comparing them. Context is important.

 

[RGacky3]

I don't know what is it with Christians that they have to go around bashing Islam, seriously, it just makes you look like you have a complex.

But obviously you can't compare the 2, even without any theological assumptions the 2 were as different as you can get.

I'm a Unitarian Christian, I don't think Jesus was God, but still you can't compare the 2. Jesus was a working class Jewish teacher and preacher and ultimately the means of slavation.

Mohammad was an Arabic warrior holy man who was also a prophet (I don't think he was, but I'm being objective here).

Also their messages were extremely different, Jesus' was essencially about self-sacrificing Agape love, and the Kingdom Of God, Mohammad was more about submission and obedience to the law of God and attaining Paradise.

 

[tosca1]

I'm a Unitarian Christian, I don't think Jesus was God,

You're like that atheist I had an debate with who said he calls himself a christian because he likes the philosophy of Christ....and yet he maintains that he's an atheist.

Unitarianism is the belief that God exists in one person, not three. It is a denial of the doctrine of the Trinity as well as the full divinity of Jesus. Therefore, it is not Christian. There are several groups that fall under this umbrella: Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphianism, The Way International, etc. Another term for this type of belief is called monarchianism.

In the context of universalism, the Unitarianism discussed here is that belief that denies the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the personhood of the Holy Spirit, eternal punishment, and the vicarious atonement of Jesus. Unitarian universalists use many biblical concepts and terms but with non-biblical meanings. Unitarianism is not Christian

This last point, "Human reason and experience should be the final authority in determining spiritual truth," is perhaps the most revealing of the character of Unitarian Universalists. Instead of God and his word being the final authority on truth and error, or right and wrong, Unitarian Universalists subject God and his word to their understanding, feeling, and reason. This is exemplified in the following quote obtain from the official Unitarian Universalist website at http://uua.org/. This was found under the heading Unitarian Universalists say:
.

What is Unitarianism? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Now it all makes sense to me now......

 

[tosca1]

Yet (and this the strange, significant thing) even His enemies, when they read the Gospels, do not usually give the impression of silliness and conceit. Still less do unprejudiced readers. Christ says that He is "humble and meek" and we believe Him; not noticing that, if He were merely a man, humility and meekness are the very last characteristics we could attribute to some of His sayings.

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I am ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

From the book: The Complete C.S. Lewis Signature Classics, page 50

 

[RGacky3]

You're like that atheist I had an debate with who said he calls himself a christian because he likes the philosophy of Christ....and yet he maintains that he's an atheist.

What is Unitarianism? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Now it all makes sense to me now......

I'm not a Unitarian Universalist, when I say "unitarian" I'm talking ONLY about my christology, I believe in One God, YHWH, the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ, I believe the bible is the inspired word of God ....

Why not discuss the actual issues with me rather than fight strawmen.

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I am ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

That would ge a good argument if he claimed to be God, he didn't, he claimed to be the son of God, the massiah, the sent one, annointed by God, I've done this argument already, http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/148166-discussion-blackdog-divinity-christ.html.

I don't think Jesus was a "mere human" he is the unique son of God, the only begotten son, but not indentified with YHWH.

 

[tosca1]

I'm not a Unitarian Universalist, when I say "unitarian" I'm talking ONLY about my christology, I believe in One God, YHWH, the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ, I believe the bible is the inspired word of God ....

Why not discuss the actual issues with me rather than fight strawmen.

The actual issue is that there is no comparison between a human (Mohammad) and God (Jesus).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus is God.

Matthew 1:23
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated,
“God with us.”

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


Isaiah 43:10,11
“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”

Isaiah 44:6
6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Revelation 1:17-18
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not;
I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 2:8
To the Church in Smyrna
8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.




2 Peter 1:1 - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”
(Jesus as the Redeemer)

Isaiah 44:24 -
Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
(God created the world by His Self alone)



John 1:1
The Eternal Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
The Word Becomes Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:3
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Colossians 1:16
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.



Exodus 3
13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

John 8:58
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”



John 14:9
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Philippians 2:5-7
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

1Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:8-9
But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”


Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13
“I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”



And please, take heed....

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

[lizzie]

Is it a valid comparison to compare Jesus to Mohammed? One being a desert warlord, the other a god?

Well, it helps to remember that in Jesus' day, he wasn't considered a god.

 

[spud_meister]

Well, it helps to remember that in Jesus' day, he wasn't considered a god.

Is godhood dependent upon popular opinion?

 

[Dragonfly]

I just love how tosca1, in all her "christian glory", can turn any and every religious discussion into a condescending and pedantic vomit of holier than thou sentences and statements.

 

[tosca1]

I just love how tosca1, in all her "christian glory", can turn any and every religious discussion into a condescending and pedantic vomit of holier than thou sentences and statements.

You forgot to include, "judgemental."

 

[RGacky3]

Jesus is God.
Matthew 1:23
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated,
“God with us.”

Tons of people had names with "el" or "Jah" in them, you have names like Eliathah (my god has come) does that mean he was God? Eliashib (my God returns) Was that person God? Eliam (God of the people) How about him?

That name immanuel, means that God is with us, in the way it meant everyother time it was used in the Old Testament ... not physically, but spiritually, God sent his savior.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Being called a "mighty God" (not almighty mind you) doesn't make you yahweh, Moses was called a mighty god, the judges were called "gods" Jesus infact talks about this in John 10.
"34. Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law,[d] ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled— 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? "

Isaiah 43:10,11
“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”

How does this apply to Jesus? There is no Savior but Yahweh, since Jesus was sent by him ...

Isaiah 44:6
6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 44:1 "But now hear, O Jacob my servant,
Israel whom I have chosen!"

The redeemer OF JACOB, or Israel ... yes, yahweh, is the redeemer of Israel. There is no massiah here.

Revelation 1:17-18
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not;
I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 2:8
To the Church in Smyrna
8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Revelation 1:1 "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants[a] what must soon take place; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant[c] John."

This is a revelation given to Christ BY GOD .....

This is an argument against the trinity

2 Peter 1:1 - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”
(Jesus as the Redeemer)

Again, mearly being called "god" doesn't identify you with yahweh.

But look at vrs 2. "May grace and peace be yours in abundance in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord."

here it seperates the knowledge of THE God (the greek has tou theous in vrs 2) with the Christ.

Jesus is a god, or lord to the disciples ... but he himself has a God, yahweh.

Isaiah 44:24 -
Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
(God created the world by His Self alone)

This is to distinguish himself from other Gods ... it isn't a creedal statement, its criticizing Idols and so on.

John 1:1
The Eternal Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Wonderful, my favorate "proof text."

Lets look at the greek.

Kai ho logos en pros ton theon. (The word was with THE God)
Kai theos en ho logos. (god was the word), notice no definate article, god here is being used as a property NOT an identity.

Which is why many translations say "The word was divine."

It's obviously not identifying the word as the same God that it was with ... it's giving the word a property of divinity.

Infact when it has the lack of a definate article in other places in the bible, translations will put an indefinate article in front of it "a prophet" for example.

John 1:14
The Word Becomes Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Not problematic given the meaning of John 1:1

John 1:3
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Colossians 1:16
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians 1:15 - "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in[h] him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

He was part of creation, the first of it, he is also the image of God. This scripture doesn't support a trinitarian view, it supports an Arian view.

Exodus 3
13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

John 8:58
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

The greek here is ego eimi ... translated elsewhere in the bible as "I am he."

Like when they ask the healed blind man if he was the one healed by Jesus he said "ego eimi" Was he calling himself Yahweh? Obviously not.

Putting it in all caps (the origional greek had no caps) is a delibarate attempt to try and tie it with Exodus 3, when it doesn't tie at all, Jesus is not identifying himself with Yahweh any more than any one else who said the very common "ego eimi" was.

John 14:9
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

Keep reading.

"20 On that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. "

If God is also in the disciples ... are they also identified as yahweh?

Obviously this isn't saying what you are trying to make it say. Otherwise it's not the trinity ... its the 15itry .... since it would include the apostles.

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Again, we've established, being called a god doesn't identify you with yahweh, others are called god (moses, judges and so on), but not yahweh.

Philippians 2:5-7
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Yeah, he didn't try to be equal to God like Satan did ... they were both spirit creatures (in the form), but Jesus was submissive to God.

1Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

What translation are you using?

The origional Greek doesn't say "God"

I'm using the new revised standard version and the Westcott hort Greek text interlinear.

Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Again, what translation are you using.

The origional greek says "The appearing of the glory of the great God"

NOT the glorious appearing of the great God.

Jesus was a manifestation of the Glory of God, he was NOT Yahweh himself.

Hebrews 1:8-9
But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
This scripture answers itself.

YOUR GOD has annointed you.

Jesus is a god, as was moses, as were the judges. But Jesus has a God ... yahweh.

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13
“I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

Again .... Revelation 1:1

 

[RGacky3]

Jesus is God.

Since I took the time to answer your arguments.

John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
Matthew 20:23
“You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
Luke 22:42
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
Mark 13:32
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
Revelation 1:1
The risen Christ recieves the revelation from God.
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God. (speaking of the risen christ).
1 Corinthians 15:27,28
For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."
The risen Christ has different authority from God
Collossians 1:15
The firstborn of creation.
John 17:3 "3 And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. "
One Category of only true God ... and Jesus is not in that category, Jesus is sent by that God.

And some more
Deuteronomy 6:4 - Our God is one, this is a personal one, a singular one, not a compound one.
Matthew 26:39 - Jesus and God have distinct wills.
John 8:17,18 - He testifies on his own behalf, and the father also testifeis ... why? Because 2 wintesses are valid ... 2 different ones.
1 Corinthians 8:5,6 - There are many "gods" and many "lords," But there is ONE GOD, the father, and one lord ... These are 2 distinct persons, beings, and ONLY the father is the one true God.
1 Peter 1:3 - God is the GOD and father of Jesus

 

[lizzie]

Is godhood dependent upon popular opinion?

In a manner of speaking, yes, if you are referring to the expression of God in Man. Otoh, when Jesus was walking, talking, and doing, he was viewed by many as a heretic and a trouble-maker. My concept of God is not in Man, but in the means of expression.

 

[tosca1]

Since I took the time to answer your arguments.

John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
Matthew 20:23
“You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
Luke 22:42
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
Mark 13:32
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
Revelation 1:1
The risen Christ recieves the revelation from God.
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God. (speaking of the risen christ).
1 Corinthians 15:27,28
For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."
The risen Christ has different authority from God
Collossians 1:15
The firstborn of creation.
John 17:3 "3 And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. "
One Category of only true God ... and Jesus is not in that category, Jesus is sent by that God.

And some more
Deuteronomy 6:4 - Our God is one, this is a personal one, a singular one, not a compound one.
Matthew 26:39 - Jesus and God have distinct wills.
John 8:17,18 - He testifies on his own behalf, and the father also testifeis ... why? Because 2 wintesses are valid ... 2 different ones.
1 Corinthians 8:5,6 - There are many "gods" and many "lords," But there is ONE GOD, the father, and one lord ... These are 2 distinct persons, beings, and ONLY the father is the one true God.
1 Peter 1:3 - God is the GOD and father of Jesus

And Peter also clarified: "our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

Your highlighted Deuteronomy quote above thus say, they're one and the same!

Your quotes are too weak to support your assertion. You know why? Because some of your quoted Apostles negated your claim and had clearly declared Jesus as God. In no uncertain terms. Read all my given quotes.

For some reason, Jesus wants us to view the Father, Son and Holy Spirit separately....but all the quotes can speak for themselves. Will you just take pause and chew on these next two lines.

Isaiah 43:10,11
“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”


I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Review all the quotes given in my preceding post. Contemplate on them. Ask the Holy Spirit for understanding.



Exodus 3
13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

John 8:58
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”



Exodus and John are neatly consistent with each other.
How much more explicit can one be?

 

[RGacky3]

And Peter also clarified: "our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

Your highlighted Deuteronomy quote above thus say, they're one and the same!

Your quotes are too weak to support your assertion. You know why? Because some of your quoted Apostles negated your claim and had clearly declared Jesus as God. In no uncertain terms. Read all my given quotes.

For some reason, Jesus wants us to view the Father, Son and Holy Spirit separately....but all the quotes can speak for themselves. Will you just take pause and chew on these two lines.

Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.

I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Exodus 3
13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

John 8:58
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”



Exodus and John are neatly consistent with each other.
How much more explicit can one be?

Read the post where I responded to you're arguments, I answer almost everything you bring up there.

 

[tosca1]

Read the post where I responded to you're arguments, I answer almost everything you bring up there.

I'll go read and respond...it may take a while. Btw, most if not all were taken from KJV.

 

[davidtaylorjr]

Is it a valid comparison to compare Jesus to Mohammed? One being a desert warlord, the other a god?

Depends on what you are comparing.

 

[tosca1]

Tons of people had names with "el" or "Jah" in them, you have names like Eliathah (my god has come) does that mean he was God? Eliashib (my God returns) Was that person God? Eliam (God of the people) How about him?

That name immanuel, means that God is with us, in the way it meant everyother time it was used in the Old Testament ... not physically, but spiritually, God sent his savior.

How many were prophesied by a prophet of God, as instructed by God?


Matthew 1

Joseph Accepts Jesus as His Son

18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about[d]: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet[e] did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[f] because he will save his people from their sins.”

22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[g] (which means “God with us”).

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Is Jesus' name "Immanuel" or "Jesus?"
In Isaiah 7:14 the Bible gives a prophecy of the name of Jesus. It says, "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel."1 If we go to Matt. 1:21, it says, "And she will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for it is He who will save His people from their sins." (See also, Matt. 1:25; Luke 1:31; 2:21). Is this a contradiction? No. It is not.

In ancient times names were often given as representations of the hopes and dreams of the parents or even of recognition of divine assistance. Names in the Old Testament had understandable meanings. For example: Abram means "exalted father," but Abraham means "Father of a multitude." Some names could even be translated into complete sentences as in Uzziel (‘God is my strength’ - Ex. 6:18), Adoniram (‘my lord is exalted’ - 1 Kings 4:6), and Ahimelek (‘my [divine] brother is king’ - 1 Sam. 21:1).2

Names are more descriptive in the Hebrew and Greek then they are in English. They often refer to the character, purpose, etc., of the one being named. The closest we come to understanding this is in Native American culture. We are familiar with such names as "Running Bear," or "Pretty Eagle, "or "White Owl" as names. These names meant something and were far more descriptive than "Bob," or "Tom," or "Sue."

When we come to Isaiah 7:14, we encounter a prophecy about the Messiah, stating that his name will be Immanuel. Immanuel literally means "God is with us." This is significant because Jesus is God in flesh:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..." (John 1:1,14).

For in Him [Jesus] all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Col. 2:9).

The Name Jesus

So, we can see that a prophecy of Jesus being "Immanuel" is dealing with him being God, the word, in flesh. This was fulfilled in the birth of Jesus when the Word, known as the Son, second person of the Trinity, became flesh. We call this the incarnation.
When it came time to name the Lord, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and told Joseph to call his new son "Jesus, for it is He who will save His people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21). The word "Jesus" means "Jehovah is salvation." This is appropriate since Jesus is Jehovah, second person of the Trinity, who became flesh and is our salvation.

Is Jesus' name "Immanuel" or "Jesus?" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry


Colossians 2:9 (KJV)
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.