Facing the Kremlin. Stepan Banderas monument will be installed a hundred kilometers from Muscovite

[bomberfox]

A man who continued to work with the Nazis even after he was released from the camp and continued associating with ex SS thugs up until the day the KGB took him out.

A man whose followers enthusiastically assisted the Nazis in going after Jewish and polish civilians in an effort to “purify” the Ukraine.

Except his insurgents continued helping the Nazis long after they had been revealed to be genocidal lunatics.

A “Ukraine first” guy wouldn’t have happily had his thugs participate in the Holocaust.

They can “lionize” a Nazi collaborator all they want....but then they should do so without a single US rifle or dollar, much less troops.

Yet people still wonder why something like America first is frowned upon, nothing exists in a historical or contextual vacuum.

 

[bomberfox]

Funny.... Once Bandera declared a free Ukraine he had no real input to the movements activities.

And collaboration could be expected early on given Ukraine had suffered terribly under Stalin.

At the time Barbarossa began there weren't death camps, ovens, gas chambers, etc. The beast had not yet shown its true face.

They were setting up the testing grounds for such a good while before the Wannsee conference and the final solution.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Okay, what is it that we are arguing about here? That many Ukrainians were and still are ardent antisemites and Nazi-supporters, with many Nazis collaborators being celebrated to this day? No one with one ounce of honesty in their character can deny that. That there are also tons of Russian Nazis, and the Russian Federation still venerates Josef Stalin's geopolitical grand strategy and downplays the legacy of his atrocities? No one with an ounce of honesty in their character can deny that either.

Both sides have repellent elements. Only Russia has engaged in aggressive war against its neighbor, the Ukraine. But that does not mean we should start engaging in excuse-making or pretending away Ukrainian fascism and antisemitism. AND we should not say that just because many Ukrainians celebrate Nazis and Nazi collaborators, that we should therefore ignore the plight of an otherwise friendly sovereign nation being invaded and having large swathes of its territory annexed by an aggressive neighbor.

Every Western country has its fascists.

Some here pretend otherwise.

 

[Rogue Valley]

American Nazis.

Every country has them. Not just Ukraine.

 

[Tigerace117]

Every Western country has its fascists.

Some here pretend otherwise.

When did I pretend otherwise? Unlike Ukraine, however, the US hasn’t given its Nazis official backing and military status

 

[Tigerace117]

American Nazis.

Every country has them. Not just Ukraine.

Those guys are in the United States military?

Those guys have the backing of the US government?

Got a source for that?

 

[Tigerace117]

Okay, what is it that we are arguing about here? That many Ukrainians were and still are ardent antisemites and Nazi-supporters, with many Nazis collaborators being celebrated to this day? No one with one ounce of honesty in their character can deny that. That there are also tons of Russian Nazis, and the Russian Federation still venerates Josef Stalin's geopolitical grand strategy and downplays the legacy of his atrocities? No one with an ounce of honesty in their character can deny that either.

Both sides have repellent elements. Only Russia has engaged in aggressive war against its neighbor, the Ukraine. But that does not mean we should start engaging in excuse-making or pretending away Ukrainian fascism and antisemitism. AND we should not say that just because many Ukrainians celebrate Nazis and Nazi collaborators, that we should therefore ignore the plight of an otherwise friendly sovereign nation being invaded and having large swathes of its territory annexed by an aggressive neighbor.

I have no problem with arming Ukraine in principle. Likewise, I have no problem with providing protection to small countries like the Baltic states which would barely qualify as speed bumps to the Russians otherwise...in principle.

I have a big problem with providing US support to a country which has used Neo Nazis— the Azov thugs— as a part of their military.

I have a big problem with US allies and prospective US allies celebrating collaborators as heroes.

The Nazis were some of the most despicable and virulently evil folks to ever rule. Had they not been stamped out their death toll would exceeded Stalin’s. Even today those who admire them continue killing innocent people. This is simply not something I’m willing to give a pass on.

 

[Tigerace117]

Yet people still wonder why something like America first is frowned upon, nothing exists in a historical or contextual vacuum.

Isolationism failed miserably in the 1930s; the fact that people think it would work today in a much more interconnected world is rather odd.

 

[Rogue Valley]

It is patently dishonest and moreover, Kremlin propaganda, to state that the Ukraine government is loaded with Nazis. That is just patently false.

Does Ukraine have far-right nationalist individuals and groups? Certainly. Every Western nation has this pestilence. Even Putin's Russia.

Early on in the war, Ukraine depended on such paramilitary groups. The pro-Russia Yanukovych had decimated the UA. Only ~6,000 trained soldiers were available in 2014. Moscow had 75,000+ on the border.

So yes. You take your help where you can when your back is against the wall. It was these nationalist volunteers that held off the Russian bear until the UA improved. In 2017, they were ordered to disband and leave the Donbas.

The UA today is a professional military (205,000). About 85% volunteer and 15% conscript. Trained by NATO instructors at Yavoriv. Units are rotated (6 months) in and out of the JFO (Joint Forces Operation) in Donbas.

That the Ukraine government is Nazi is simply a Kremlin talking point. I lived in Ukraine for 5 years and never once met a Nazi.

Every country has its nationalist wingnuts. They especially come out when a nation is partly occupied and trying to expel an invader. That's just the nature of things. Especially when 14,000+ have died.

 

[Tigerace117]

It is patently dishonest and moreover, Kremlin propaganda, to state that the Ukraine government is loaded with Nazis. That is just patently false.

Does Ukraine have far-right nationalist individuals and groups? Certainly. Every Western nation has this pestilence. Even Putin's Russia.

Early on in the war, Ukraine depended on such paramilitary groups. The pro-Russia Yanukovych had decimated the UA. Only ~6,000 trained soldiers were available in 2014. Moscow had 75,000+ on the border.

So yes. You take your help where you can when your back is against the wall. It was these nationalist volunteers that held off the Russian bear until the UA improved. In 2017, they were ordered to disband and leave the Donbas.

The UA today is a professional military (205,000). About 85% volunteer and 15% conscript. Trained by NATO instructors at Yavoriv. Units are rotated (6 months) in and out of the JFO (Joint Forces Operation) in Donbas.

That the Ukraine government is Nazi is simply a Kremlin talking point. I lived in Ukraine for 5 years and never once met a Nazi.

Every country has its nationalist wingnuts. They especially come out when a nation is partly occupied and trying to expel an invader. That's just the nature of things. Especially when 14,000+ have died.

“Every nation” doesn’t take its Neo Nazis and give them official government backing and support, and that is a laughably weak excuse for doing so. 75,000 men weren’t going to be coming over the border and even if they did having another militia group wouldn’t stop them regardless.

And yet, the Azov thugs are still around and more than active.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...v-terrorism/&usg=AOvVaw1Ory42x35iC9dnAtMIrOCI

Again, every nation doesn’t give its wingnuts government support. Every nation doesn’t celebrate Waffen SS thugs and Nazi collaborators as heroes either.

 

[bomberfox]

Isolationism failed miserably in the 1930s; the fact that people think it would work today in a much more interconnected world is rather odd.

Unfortunately the days of guns and butter are over as well.

 

[bomberfox]

Those guys are in the United States military?

Those guys have the backing of the US government?

Got a source for that?

Atomwaffen division, which is pretty much an American counterpart to Azov, had to sneak in so there isnt evidence that the US military is backing them, though this administration is rather determined to prevent us from screening them out.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Atomwaffen division, which is pretty much an American counterpart to Azov, had to sneak in so there isnt evidence that the US military is backing them, though this administration is rather determined to prevent us from screening them out.

The Atomwaffen Division is an American neo-Nazi group founded on the [now-defunct] fascist forum Iron March. It follows the ideology of James Mason and the ZOG CT. Headquarters in Florida, Estonia, and Germany.

Members of the U.S. group traveled to England, Poland, the Czech Republic, and Ukraine. Wanted for 8 murders and supports itself via robbery, arms trafficking, and a meth lab.

 

[Tigerace117]

The Atomwaffen Division is an American neo-Nazi group founded on the [now-defunct] fascist forum Iron March. It follows the ideology of James Mason and the ZOG CT. Headquarters in Florida, Estonia, and Germany.

Members of the U.S. group traveled to England, Poland, the Czech Republic, and Ukraine. Wanted for 8 murders and supports itself via robbery, arms trafficking, and a meth lab.

So in other words not part of the US military and not sponsored by the US government....unlike Azov

 

[Litwin]

"Those guys have the backing" 100 years old sralenist propaganda, anti western propagandacondoms love it Anti-Ukrainian sentiment - Wikipedia

reality :
"The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda"
The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda | TheHill

 

[Ringo Stalin]

Funeral of Nazi Waffen SS Division Galizia veteran Mykhaylo Mulyk took place today in Ivano-Frankivsk. Ukraine. He bravely fought for Adolf Hitler and the victory of Nazi Germany. He will be laid to rest at the Glory Alley.


*


Organization of Ukrainian Nationalist’ ideologist Stephan Lenkavsky in July of 1941: “For the Jews we will take every measure for their elimination”. Below is the monument to Stepan Lenkavsky in Ivano-Frankivsk.

 

[Ringo Stalin]

“We are setting up militia that will help to eliminate Jews”, - from Yaroslav Stetsko letter to Stepan Bandera on June 25, 1941. Pictured is a monument to Yaroslav Stetsko.



A workshop from Ternopol offering T-shirts with a print “Holy ****, are you Yid?”


POGROM IN UMAN OVER SHABBOS: Ukrainian Thugs Attack Jews, 4 Evacuated To Hospitals - The Yeshiva World

Ukrainian Ambassador informed Israeli MFA that Israeli and Polish Ambassadors statement condemning glorification of Bandera and Melnik is counterproductive. He also stated that revival of national memory is a priority for Ukraine. It means Ukraine will continue to glorify mass murderers

Lviv Regional Council has declared year of 2020 - the year of Andriy Melnyk - Ukrainian nationalist and Nazi collaborator who heavily participated in Holocaust. The archival photo of 1941 shows a greeting banner “Glory to Hitler! Glory to Melnyk”.

 

[Ringo Stalin]

Ukrainian Parliament adopted a resolution to celebrate 120th anniversary of Volodymyr Kubiyovych, Nazi collaborator and founder of Ukrainian Waffen SS Division Galizia. Kubiyovych is pictured below at 1943 photo.



A memorial plaque in honor of Nazi collaborator, Waffen SS Division Galizia Obersturmfuhrer Lubomir Makarushka. The plaque was installed at the school’s building in his native village near Kalush.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJU3783WsAErc1J?format=jpg&name=small
*
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJU3789XYAUV5jQ?format=jpg&name=360x360

Monument to Kostyantyn Peter - chief of Ukrainian Auxiliary Police in Tysmenitsa and Nadvorna. Peter is the perpetrator of mass murder of more than 4, 000 of local Jewish men, women and children in 1941-42. Later joined UPA and participated in the mass murders of Poles.



I can go on for a long time with monuments to these bastards in the fascist Ukraine. But Litwin looks for some reason happy, publishing a note that a monument to one of these scoundrels will be installed near the Russian border.

 

[Tigerace117]

"Those guys have the backing" 100 years old sralenist propaganda, anti western propagandacondoms love it Anti-Ukrainian sentiment - Wikipedia

reality :
"The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda"
The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda | TheHill

Oh look, you are back from your mini vacation to rave some more about “Asians”.

Like I said before, folks who celebrate collaborators as heroes don’t get to whine about anyone else.

 

[Litwin]

... you are back from your mini vacation....

LOL, i like this one, did you miss me? be honest this time

 

[Tigerace117]

LOL, i like this one, did you miss me? be honest this time

Not even slightly.

Not having to listen to people trying to defend nazi collaborators was rather refreshing

 

[Litwin]

never did so i hate AND FIGHT all TOTALITARIAN regimes much like UPA did (the only one de facto state which did it ) , but you daily promote here the bigger Nazi ally - koba , you are stainist

 

[Tigerace117]

never did so i hate AND FIGHT all TOTALITARIAN regimes much like UPA did (the only one de facto state which did it ) , but you daily promote here the bigger Nazi ally - koba , you are stainist

The UPA happily collaborated with the Nazis and took an actively role in the Holocaust.

It was the Red Army which helped crushed the Nazis and their collaborators and put a stop to the ongoing genocide.

No, I am not a Stalinist or a Satanist or a “Stainist”. I am someone who knows history—for example, I know that it was the Nazis, not Stalin, who laid siege to Leningrad.

 

[Litwin]

"UPA happily collaborated with the Nazis " with leaders killed by Nazis and Nazi death camps ... stop your useless stralist propaganda here


", according to German general Ernst August Köstring, UPA fighters "fought almost exclusively against German administrative agencies, the German police and the SS in their quest to establish an independent Ukraine controlled by neither Moscow nor Germany."[54][better source needed]

During the German occupation, the UPA conducted hundreds of raids on police stations and military convoys. In the region of Zhytomyr insurgents were estimated by the German General-Kommissar Leyser to be in control of 80% of the forests and 60% of the farmland.[55]

According to the OUN/UPA, on 12 May 1943, Germans attacked the town of Kolki using several SS-Divisions (SS units operated alongside the German Army who were responsible for intelligence, central security, policing action, and mass extermination), where both sides suffered heavy losses.[56] Soviet partisans reported the reinforcement of German auxiliary forces at Kolki for the end of April until the middle of May 1943.[57]

In June 1943, German SS and police forces under the command of Erich von dem Bach, the head of Himmler-directed Bandenbekämpfung ("bandit warfare"), attempted to destroy UPA-North in Volhynia during "Operation BB".[58] According to Ukrainian claims, the initial stage of Operation "BB" (Bandenbekämpfung) against the UPA had produced no results whatsoever. This development was the subject of several discussions by Himmler's staff that resulted in General von dem Bach-Zelewski being sent to Ukraine.[59] He failed to eliminate the UPA, which grew steadily, and the Germans, apart from terrorizing the civilian population, were virtually limited to defensive actions.[60]

From July through September 1943, as a result of an estimated 74 clashes between German forces and the UPA, the Germans lost more than 3,000 men killed or wounded while the UPA lost 1,237 killed or wounded. According to post-war estimates, the UPA had the following number of clashes with the Germans in mid-to-late 1943 in Volhynia: 35 in July; 24 in August; 15 in September; 47 during October–November.[28]:186[61][62] In the fall of 1943, clashes between the UPA and the Germans declined, so that Erich Koch in his November 1943 report and New Year 1944 speech could mention that "nationalistic bands in forests do not pose any major threat" for the Germans.[28]:190

In Autumn of 1943, some detachments of the UPA attempted to find rapprochement with the Germans. Although doing so was condemned by an OUN/UPA order from 25 November 1943, these actions did not end.[28]:190–194 In early 1944 UPA forces in several Western regions engaged in cooperation with the German Wehrmacht, Waffen SS, SiPo and SD.[28]:192–194[63] However, in the winter and spring of 1944 it would be incorrect to say that there was a complete cessation of armed conflict between UPA and German forces as the UPA continued to defend Ukrainian villages against the repressive actions of the German administration.[28]:196

For example, on 20 January, 200 German soldiers on their way to the Ukrainian village of Pyrohivka were forced to retreat after a several-hours long firefight with a group of 80 UPA soldiers after having lost 30 killed and wounded.[28]:197 In March–July 1944, a senior leader of OUN(B) in Galicia conducted negotiations with SD and SS officials resulting in a German decision to supply the UPA with arms and ammunition. In May of that year, the OUN issued instructions to "switch the struggle, which had been conducted against the Germans, completely into a struggle against the Soviets."[28]

 

[Litwin]

In a top secret memorandum, General-Major Brigadeführer Brenner wrote in mid-1944 to SS-Obergruppenführer General Hans-Adolf Prützmann, the highest ranking German SS officer in Ukraine, that, "The UPA has halted all attacks on units of the German army. The UPA systematically sends agents, mainly young women, into enemy-occupied territory, and the results of the intelligence are communicated to Department 1c of the [German] Army Group" on the southern front.[64] By the Autumn of 1944, the German press was full of praise for UPA for their anti-Bolshevik successes, referring to the UPA fighters as "Ukrainian fighters for freedom"[65] After the front had passed, by the end of 1944 the Germans supplied OUN/UPA by air with arms and equipment. In the region of Ivano-Frankivsk, there even existed a small landing strip for German transport planes. Some German personnel trained to conduct terrorist and intelligence activities behind Soviet lines, as well as some OUN-B leaders, were also transported through this channel.[66]

Adopting a strategy analogous to that of the Chetnik leader General Draža Mihailović,[67] the UPA limited its actions against the Germans in order to better prepare itself for and engage in the struggle against the Communists. Because of this, although the UPA managed to limit German activities to a certain extent, it failed to prevent the Germans from deporting approximately 500,000 people from Western Ukrainian regions and from economically exploiting Western Ukraine.[68] Due to its focus on the Soviets as the principal threat, UPA's anti-German struggle did not contribute significantly to the liberation of Ukrainian territories by Soviet forces.[28]:199 " Ukrainian Insurgent Army - Wikipedia

Myth 1: UPA are “Hitler’s henchmen” and did not fight against the Nazis

Quote-myth: “No document can prove that the UPA fought against the Germans. The Germans supplied the UPA units with weapons in 1942, 1943 and 1944,” stated Dmytro Tabachnyk, Ukrainian Minister of Education and Science (2010-2014).

The essence of the myth

The UPA was created by the Nazis. They closely cooperated in undertaking punitive operations against Soviet partisans, Ukrainian, Jewish and Polish population. There is no evidence of the UPA’s anti-Nazi fighting.

Facts

Extremely brutal occupation policies of the Nazis forced the OUN (b) Provid (the governing body of the organization) to take up arms and defend the population. The first UPA hundred (military unit) was formed on January 22, 1943. And on February 7 it already defeated the German commandant’s office in the district center Volodymyrets, Rivne region.

In the spring of 1943, the UPA constantly increases the extent of resistance. Their fiercest clashes with the Germans happened near Lutsk, Kovel, Horokhiv, Rivne, Kremenets, Kostopil, Sarny and Lanivtsi. During March 1943, the insurgents seized regional centers five times. At the end of the first spring month, the German officials reported to Reichskommissar Erich Koch that only two areas in Volyn were free of “gangs”.