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Facing the Kremlin. Stepan Banderas monument will be installed a hundred kilometers from Muscovite

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Ukraine president Volodmyr Zelenskyy and his wife in Israel. They don't look like Nazis to me.
 
Ukraine president Volodmyr Zelenskyy and his wife in Israel. They don't look like Nazis to me.
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During the 1936 Olympic games, Hitler ordered the suspension of anti-Semitic propaganda. Imagine, even Hitler did not look like a nazi! Zelensky is just a small piece of garbage, set up to sell off the remnants of Ukraine. The nazis in Ukraine are not a hindrance to this case.
 
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Russian Nazis
 
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Left: The German and Russian Nazis carving up Poland and the Baltic States in 1939.
Right: The Russian Nazi who wants to do so again today.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Reagan didn’t manage to kick anyone’s ass. He did manage to almost get himself and everyone else killed though.

Who exactly did I “betray”?

I do love how you manage to get “you are a commie” out of opposing Nazis and their collaborators. Way to prove my point :lamo

Being anti-communist is not an excuse to justify murdering millions of innocent people and working with Adolf Hitler, and the fact that you think it does is a pretty clear sign that we shouldn’t be sending aid or weaponry to any countries which think collaborators are heroes.
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You need to realize he is from lithuania, a nation that not only backed the nazis, but volunteered to aid them with concentration camps and also managed to wipe out their own jewish population. To this day lithuania has a revisionist history painting their nazi collaberators as heros.
 
Fledermaus said:
I have to ask. What do you believe this proves?
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Rogue Valley is attempting to smear Russians as Nazis(even Stalin oddly enough). I am pointing out that by his own standard one would have to condemn Ukraine every bit as much. One can oppose the Putin regime without going into hysterics about how Russia is “planning to carve up Poland”. And that’s not even getting into folks like Litwin.

There’s also the fact that I strongly feel that we should not be supporting anyone who holds Nazi collaborators and members of the ****ing SS up as heroes. If Ukraine and other Eastern European nations want US guns, US aid, and US protection, then they shouldn’t be celebrating the folks which fought for a genocidal regime against the United States.
 
Where is the Nazi in this image?

Ah yes. That solitary yellow dot to the far left of the image.

Oleh Tannybok of the Svoboda (Freedom) Party. Since this party did not receive the mandatory 5% of national votes, no Svoboda members were seated.

The same result happened in the 2019 elections.

Kandydaty-prez-lidery-2014.jpg
 
Tigerace117 said:
Rogue Valley is attempting to smear Russians as Nazis(even Stalin oddly enough). I am pointing out that by his own standard one would have to condemn Ukraine every bit as much. One can oppose the Putin regime without going into hysterics about how Russia is “planning to carve up Poland”. And that’s not even getting into folks like Litwin.

There’s also the fact that I strongly feel that we should not be supporting anyone who holds Nazi collaborators and members of the ****ing SS up as heroes. If Ukraine and other Eastern European nations want US guns, US aid, and US protection, then they shouldn’t be celebrating the folks which fought for a genocidal regime against the United States.
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There are Neo-Nazi folks everywhere.

Period.

Ukraine celebrates a man that was sent to a concentration camp for daring to work towards a free and independent Ukraine.

Remember, the Ukrainians initially welcomed the Nazis as liberators. They thought the terrors of Holodormer were past.

During the time of his internment is when the atrocities commited by the Ukrainians occurred. At the time he was sent to Sachsenhausen the Holocaust had not began in earnest. He

Only to be released later due to Germany's hope that he unite Ukrainians in resistance to the USSR.

He was a "Ukraine first" guy.

That's why they lionize the guy.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Where is the Nazi in this image?

Ah yes. That solitary yellow dot to the far left of the image.

Oleh Tannybok of the Svoboda (Freedom) Party. Since this party did not receive the mandatory 5% of national votes, no Svoboda members were seated.

The same result happened in the 2019 elections.

Kandydaty-prez-lidery-2014.jpg
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Where are the Nazis?

Right here.

Azov Battalion - Wikipedia

And here

“The 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician) is today honored by many Ukrainian nationalists.[58] Since 2010 every year on April 28 a march is held to celebrate the foundation of the division.[59] In addition streets were named after the division in Ivano-Frankivsk (Ukrains`koi Dyvizii Street) and Ternopil (Soldiers Division "Galicia" Street).[60]”

Oh, and more examples here, where a collaborator is celebrated

Israel urges Ukraine to remove Nazi collaborators from its 'List of Heroes' | The Times of Israel

And here

Israel and Poland slam glorification of Nazi collaborators in Ukraine - Jewish Telegraphic Agency
 
Fledermaus said:
There are Neo-Nazi folks everywhere.

Period.

Ukraine celebrates a man that was sent to a concentration camp for daring to work towards a free and independent Ukraine.

Remember, the Ukrainians initially welcomed the Nazis as liberators. They thought the terrors of Holodormer were past.

During the time of his internment is when the atrocities commited by the Ukrainians occurred. At the time he was sent to Sachsenhausen the Holocaust had not began in earnest. He

Only to be released later due to Germany's hope that he unite Ukrainians in resistance to the USSR.

He was a "Ukraine first" guy.

That's why they lionize the guy.
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A man who continued to work with the Nazis even after he was released from the camp and continued associating with ex SS thugs up until the day the KGB took him out.

A man whose followers enthusiastically assisted the Nazis in going after Jewish and polish civilians in an effort to “purify” the Ukraine.

Except his insurgents continued helping the Nazis long after they had been revealed to be genocidal lunatics.

A “Ukraine first” guy wouldn’t have happily had his thugs participate in the Holocaust.

They can “lionize” a Nazi collaborator all they want....but then they should do so without a single US rifle or dollar, much less troops.
 
Tigerace117 said:
A man who continued to work with the Nazis even after he was released from the camp and continued associating with ex SS thugs up until the day the KGB took him out.

A man whose followers enthusiastically assisted the Nazis in going after Jewish and polish civilians in an effort to “purify” the Ukraine.

Except his insurgents continued helping the Nazis long after they had been revealed to be genocidal lunatics.

A “Ukraine first” guy wouldn’t have happily had his thugs participate in the Holocaust.

They can “lionize” a Nazi collaborator all they want....but then they should do so without a single US rifle or dollar, much less troops.
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How exactly did he assist the Nazis in going after Jewish and polish civilians in an effort to “purify” the Ukraine" from inside a concentration camp?
 
Fledermaus said:
How exactly did he assist the Nazis in going after Jewish and polish civilians in an effort to “purify” the Ukraine" from inside a concentration camp?
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Via his followers, who were certainly not in concentration camps.

From previous source;

“ In May 1941 at a meeting in Kraków the leadership of Bandera's OUN faction adopted the program "Struggle and action for OUN during the war" (Ukrainian: "Боротьба й діяльність ОУН під час війни") which outlined the plans for activities at the onset of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union and the western territories of the Ukrainian SSR.[60] Section G of that document –"Directives for organizing the life of the state during the first days" (Ukrainian: "Вказівки на перші дні організації державного життя") outline activity of the Bandera followers during summer 1941.[61] In the subsection of "Minority Policy" the OUN-B ordered the removal of hostile Poles, Jews, and Russians via deportation and the destruction of their respective intelligentsias, stating further that the "so-called Polish peasants must be assimilated" and to "destroy their leaders."[citation needed]

In late 1942, when Bandera was in a German concentration camp, his organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a massacre of Poles in Volhynia and, in early 1944, ethnic cleansing also spread to Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000[62] Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 100,000 if other regions (Eastern Galicia) are included.[63][64]”

“ Hostility to both the Soviet central government and the Jewish minority were highlighted at the OUN-B's Conference in Kraków in May 1941, at which the leadership of Bandera's OUN faction adopted the program "Struggle and action of OUN during the war" (Ukrainian: "Боротьба й діяльність ОУН під час війни") which outlined the plans for activities at the onset of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union and the western territories of the Ukrainian SSR.[60] The program declared that:

The Jews in the USSR constitute the most faithful support of the ruling Bolshevik regime, and the vanguard of Muscovite imperialism in Ukraine. The Muscovite-Bolshevik government exploits the anti-Jewish sentiments of the Ukrainian masses to divert their attention from the true cause of their misfortune and to channel them in a time of frustration into pogroms on Jews. The OUN combats the Jews as the prop of the Muscovite-Bolshevik regime and simultaneously it renders the masses conscious of the fact that the principal foe is Moscow.[69]

Section G of the program – "Directives for organizing the life of the state during the first days" (Ukrainian: "Вказівки на перші дні організації державного життя") outlined activity of the Bandera followers during mid-1941.[61] In a subsection on "Minority Policy", the leaders of OUN-B ordered:
Moskali [i.e. ethnic Russians], Poles, and Jews that are hostile to us are to be destroyed in struggle, particularly those opposing the regime, by means of: deporting them to their own lands, eradicating their intelligentsia, which is not to be admitted to any governmental positions, and overall preventing any creation of this intelligentsia (e.g. access to education etc)... Jews are to be isolated, removed from governmental positions in order to prevent sabotage... Those who are deemed necessary may only work under strict supervision and removed from their positions for slightest misconduct... Jewish assimilation is not possible.[70][71][72]

Later in June, Yaroslav Stetsko sent to Bandera a report in which he stated "We are creating a militia which will help to remove the Jews and protect the population."[73][74] Leaflets spread in the name of Bandera in the same year called for the "destruction" of "Moscow", Poles, Hungarians and Jewry.[75][76][77] In 1941–1942 while Bandera was cooperating with the Germans, OUN members did take part in anti-Jewish actions. German police at 1941 reported that "fanatic" Bandera followers, organised in small groups were "extraordinarily active" against Jews and communists.[78]”
 
Tigerace117 said:
Via his followers, who were certainly not in concentration camps.

From previous source;

“ In May 1941 at a meeting in Kraków the leadership of Bandera's OUN faction adopted the program "Struggle and action for OUN during the war" (Ukrainian: "Боротьба й діяльність ОУН під час війни") which outlined the plans for activities at the onset of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union and the western territories of the Ukrainian SSR.[60] Section G of that document –"Directives for organizing the life of the state during the first days" (Ukrainian: "Вказівки на перші дні організації державного життя") outline activity of the Bandera followers during summer 1941.[61] In the subsection of "Minority Policy" the OUN-B ordered the removal of hostile Poles, Jews, and Russians via deportation and the destruction of their respective intelligentsias, stating further that the "so-called Polish peasants must be assimilated" and to "destroy their leaders."[citation needed]

In late 1942, when Bandera was in a German concentration camp, his organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a massacre of Poles in Volhynia and, in early 1944, ethnic cleansing also spread to Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000[62] Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 100,000 if other regions (Eastern Galicia) are included.[63][64]”

“ Hostility to both the Soviet central government and the Jewish minority were highlighted at the OUN-B's Conference in Kraków in May 1941, at which the leadership of Bandera's OUN faction adopted the program "Struggle and action of OUN during the war" (Ukrainian: "Боротьба й діяльність ОУН під час війни") which outlined the plans for activities at the onset of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union and the western territories of the Ukrainian SSR.[60] The program declared that:

The Jews in the USSR constitute the most faithful support of the ruling Bolshevik regime, and the vanguard of Muscovite imperialism in Ukraine. The Muscovite-Bolshevik government exploits the anti-Jewish sentiments of the Ukrainian masses to divert their attention from the true cause of their misfortune and to channel them in a time of frustration into pogroms on Jews. The OUN combats the Jews as the prop of the Muscovite-Bolshevik regime and simultaneously it renders the masses conscious of the fact that the principal foe is Moscow.[69]

Section G of the program – "Directives for organizing the life of the state during the first days" (Ukrainian: "Вказівки на перші дні організації державного життя") outlined activity of the Bandera followers during mid-1941.[61] In a subsection on "Minority Policy", the leaders of OUN-B ordered:
Moskali [i.e. ethnic Russians], Poles, and Jews that are hostile to us are to be destroyed in struggle, particularly those opposing the regime, by means of: deporting them to their own lands, eradicating their intelligentsia, which is not to be admitted to any governmental positions, and overall preventing any creation of this intelligentsia (e.g. access to education etc)... Jews are to be isolated, removed from governmental positions in order to prevent sabotage... Those who are deemed necessary may only work under strict supervision and removed from their positions for slightest misconduct... Jewish assimilation is not possible.[70][71][72]

Later in June, Yaroslav Stetsko sent to Bandera a report in which he stated "We are creating a militia which will help to remove the Jews and protect the population."[73][74] Leaflets spread in the name of Bandera in the same year called for the "destruction" of "Moscow", Poles, Hungarians and Jewry.[75][76][77] In 1941–1942 while Bandera was cooperating with the Germans, OUN members did take part in anti-Jewish actions. German police at 1941 reported that "fanatic" Bandera followers, organised in small groups were "extraordinarily active" against Jews and communists.[78]”
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The Ukraine movement was under some one else's command while he was in the concentration camp....

Your own quotes show that. What does "the leadership of Bandera's OUN faction" mean to you?
 
Fledermaus said:
The Ukraine movement was under some one else's command while he was in the concentration camp....

Your own quotes show that. What does "the leadership of Bandera's OUN faction" mean to you?
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The movement continued the policies laid down by Bandera at the very beginning— policies which included collaboration with the Nazis, ethnic cleansing, and outright genocide.

His followers, who agreed with the principles laid down at the very beginning and implemented them before, during and after he was in German custody.
 
Tigerace117 said:
The movement continued the policies laid down by Bandera at the very beginning— policies which included collaboration with the Nazis, ethnic cleansing, and outright genocide.

His followers, who agreed with the principles laid down at the very beginning and implemented them before, during and after he was in German custody.
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Funny.... Once Bandera declared a free Ukraine he had no real input to the movements activities.

And collaboration could be expected early on given Ukraine had suffered terribly under Stalin.

At the time Barbarossa began there weren't death camps, ovens, gas chambers, etc. The beast had not yet shown its true face.
 
Fledermaus said:
Funny.... Once Bandera declared a free Ukraine he had no real input to the movements activities.

And collaboration could be expected early on given Ukraine had suffered terribly under Stalin.

At the time Barbarossa began there weren't death camps, ovens, gas chambers, etc. The beast had not yet shown its true face.
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The Einsatzgruppen were already around and played an integral part in the Nazis’ operational planning for Barbarossa, “cleansing” the areas behind the lines. They were committing massacres from the earliest days of the war.

Bandera’s program for a “free Ukraine” immediately involved the targeting of Jews as part of Moscow’s “vanguard”. That was part of the plan from the get-go. Bandera also continued collaboration with the Nazis once they agreed to let him operate freely.

African Americans suffered terribly under Jim Crow. Would that have justified them working en masse for Stalin?
 
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Ukraine president Volodmyr Zelenskyy and friends. They don't look like Nazis to me.
 
Tigerace117 said:
A man who continued to work with the Nazis even after he was released from the camp and continued associating with ex SS thugs up until the day the KGB took him out.

A man whose followers enthusiastically assisted the Nazis in going after Jewish and polish civilians in an effort to “purify” the Ukraine.

Except his insurgents continued helping the Nazis long after they had been revealed to be genocidal lunatics.

A “Ukraine first” guy wouldn’t have happily had his thugs participate in the Holocaust.

They can “lionize” a Nazi collaborator all they want....but then they should do so without a single US rifle or dollar, much less troops.
Click to expand...

Rogue Valley said:
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Left: The German and Russian Nazis carving up Poland and the Baltic States in 1939.
Right: The Russian Nazi who wants to do so again today.
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Okay, what is it that we are arguing about here? That many Ukrainians were and still are ardent antisemites and Nazi-supporters, with many Nazis collaborators being celebrated to this day? No one with one ounce of honesty in their character can deny that. That there are also tons of Russian Nazis, and the Russian Federation still venerates Josef Stalin's geopolitical grand strategy and downplays the legacy of his atrocities? No one with an ounce of honesty in their character can deny that either.

Both sides have repellent elements. Only Russia has engaged in aggressive war against its neighbor, the Ukraine. But that does not mean we should start engaging in excuse-making or pretending away Ukrainian fascism and antisemitism. AND we should not say that just because many Ukrainians celebrate Nazis and Nazi collaborators, that we should therefore ignore the plight of an otherwise friendly sovereign nation being invaded and having large swathes of its territory annexed by an aggressive neighbor.
 
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