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Evidence for the Bible / God[W:14]
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They seldom get any more liberal and radical than those two. Their work at the Jesus Seminar was a farce.
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How can they fudge the account to fit the prophecies? What would be their motive?
Let's look at some of the prophecies:
Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead.
Reasons To Believe : Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible
Why would the Pharisees/authorities of the time be willing to go along with such a plot?
Who would volunteer to fill that leading man role - which was a suicide role of such a horrific death?
---------------------------------------------
In the fifth century B.C. a prophet named Zechariah declared that the Messiah would be betrayed for the price of a slave—thirty pieces of silver, according to Jewish law-and also that this money would be used to buy a burial ground for Jerusalem's poor foreigners (Zechariah 11:12-13). Bible writers and secular historians both record thirty pieces of silver as the sum paid to Judas Iscariot for betraying Jesus, and they indicate that the money went to purchase a "potter's field," used—just as predicted—for the burial of poor aliens (Matthew 27:3-10). Reasons To Believe : Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible
What's in it for Judas? He didn't even get to enjoy his 30 pieces of silver!
Furthermore, it doesn't make any sense for all the people involved to "fudge the account" to fit the prophecies.
If that were the case, they would undoubtedly know that Jesus was a fraud.
Why then did all 11 Apostles willingly die as martyrs for a fraud? For what?
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Self-fulfilled. Yeah, right.
So they got a volunteer who went willingly with the plan to be tortured and crucified, and another one to commit suicide in the final act, and become immortalized as the biggest traitor of all time.
And all the Apostles who must've been in on it all volunteered to get martyred in horrible deaths just so to perpetuate what they knew was a fraud!
And all those who were involved in the killings - from high-ranking government officials to Pharisees, etc, - must be in on it, too.
For what? It couldn't have been for fame and notoriety! How would they know the Bible would still be very much around 2000 years later? And there were no book-rights and made-for-tv movie sign-up deals then!
That must be the biggest of all conspiracy theories! :lol:
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It's all just stories unless archaeology supports it. Oh wait, that's impossible!
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William Lane Craig
Biographical Sketch
William Lane Craig is Research Professor of Philosophy at Talbot School of Theology in La Mirada, California. He and his wife Jan have two grown children.
At the age of sixteen as a junior in high school, he first heard the message of the Christian gospel and yielded his life to Christ. Dr. Craig pursued his undergraduate studies at Wheaton College (B.A. 1971) and graduate studies at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (M.A. 1974; M.A. 1975), the University of Birmingham (England) (Ph.D. 1977), and the University of Munich (Germany) (D.Theol. 1984). From 1980-86 he taught Philosophy of Religion at Trinity, during which time he and Jan started their family. In 1987 they moved to Brussels, Belgium, where Dr. Craig pursued research at the University of Louvain until assuming his position at Talbot in 1994.
He has authored or edited over thirty books, including The Kalam Cosmological Argument; Assessing the New Testament Evidence for the Historicity of the Resurrection of Jesus; Divine Foreknowledge and Human Freedom; Theism, Atheism and Big Bang Cosmology; and God, Time and Eternity, as well as over a hundred articles in professional journals of philosophy and theology, including The Journal of Philosophy, New Testament Studies, Journal for the Study of the New Testament, American Philosophical Quarterly, Philosophical Studies, Philosophy, and British Journal for Philosophy of Science.
Educational Background
Wheaton College — B. A. Communications, high honors 1971
Trinity Evangelical Divinity School — M. A. Philosophy of Religion, summa cum laude 1975
Trinity Evangelical Divinity School — M. A. Church History, summa cum laude 1975
University of Birmingham, England — Ph.D. Philosophy 1977
Universität München, Germany — D. Theol. Theology 1984
Honors and Lectureships
Scholastic Honor Society Wheaton College 971
Academic Achievement Award Trinity Evangelical Divinity School 1975
Research Grant Andersen Foundation 1975-77
Research Fellowship Alexander von Humboldt Stiftung 1978-80
Best Articles of 1988
Philosopher's Annual II 1988
McManis Lectureship Wheaton College 1994
Geneva Lecture Series University of Iowa 1994
Exemplary Papers Award Templeton Foundation 1995
Paley Lectures University of Western Ontario 1995
Easterwood Lecture Southern Methodist University 1996
Carver-Barnes Lectures Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary 1996
Strauss Lectures Lincoln Christian College and Seminary 1996
Easterwood Lecture Southern Methodist University 1996
Carver-Barnes Lectures Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary 1996
Strauss Lectures Lincoln Christian College and Seminary 1996
Exemplary Papers Award Templeton Foundation 1996
Exemplary Papers Award Templeton Foundation 1997
Ryan Lectures Asbury College and Seminary 1999
Templeton Lecture Montana Malone College 2000
Staley Lectures Crown College 2000
Saucy Lectures Talbot School of Theology 2001
Nelson Lectures Samford University 2001
Bonchek Series ranklin and Marshall College 2001
Physics and the God of Abraham Gonzaga University 2003
Lee Lectures Louisiana State University 2003
Weyerhauser Debate Series University of Hawaii 2003
Templeton Lecture University of Colorado 2004
Templeton Lecture niversity of California, Santa Barbara 2004
Stobb Lectures Calvin College and Seminary 2004
D. Litt. ethel College 2005
Joseph M. Carr Lectures Mt. Union College 2006
Templeton Lecture Methodist College 2006
UNESCO Lecture University of Tunis 2007
Professional Societies
American Philosophical Association 1977-
American Academy of Religion 1978-
Society of Biblical Literature 978-
Society of Christian Philosophers 1979-
Executive Committee 1997-2000
Evangelical Theological Society 1983-
Evangelical Philosophical Society 1983-
Vice President
1995-96
President
1996-2005
Science and Religion Forum 1990-
Philosophy of Time Society
1992-
President
1999-2006
Career Experience
Assistant Professor of Philosophy of Religion
Trinity Evangelical Divinity School
1980-1986
Associate Professor of Religious Studies
Westmont College
1986-1987
Visiting Researcher
Université Catholique de Louvain
1987-1994
Research Professor of Philosophy
Talbot School of Theology
1996-
Visiting Professor of Philosophy
Wheaton College
ReasonableFaith.org
NOTE: This is THE William Lane Craig.
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From my reading it appears that the Bible probably has some facts roughly correct, but overall it is not an accurate history book. Taking the Bible as an accurate history seems to ignore all its internal contradictions and the history of revisions.
ethanUNC
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First of all, "Talbot School of Theology" is no more a real university than Patriot Bible University is.
Second, you need to link me to the magical paper that proves there is a god.
Morton
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Their motive is obvious. And the notion that historians agree with the gospel writers is intellectually dishonest or ignorant. Not all historians or NT scholars agree - in fact it probably goes the other way. Taking your first example, there is no proof that Jesus's side was pierced. This is a perfect example of an account that could have been fudged because of perceived "prophesies" from the OT.
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ethanUNC
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It has already been devastatingly debunked.
The Case Against The Case For Christ: A New Testament Scholar Refutes the Reverend Lee Strobel: Robert M Price, Frank R. Zindler: 9781578840052: Amazon.com: Books
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Would you consider this too vague:
Jan 2, 1831
29 Ye hear of wars in far countries, and you say that there will soon be great wars in far countries, but ye know not the hearts of men in your own land.
30 I tell you these things because of your prayers; wherefore, treasure up wisdom in your bosoms, lest the wickedness of men reveal these things unto you by their wickedness, in a manner which shall speak in your ears with a voice louder than that which shall shake the earth; but if ye are prepared ye shall not fear.
31 And that ye might escape the power of the enemy, and be gathered unto me a righteous people, without spot and blameless -
32 Wherefore, for this cause I gave unto you the commandment that ye should go to the Ohio; and there I will give unto you my law; and there you shall be endowed with power from on high; . . .D&C 38:29
Feb 9, 1831
64 And even now, let him that goeth to the east teach them that shall be converted to flee to the west, and this in consequence of that which is coming on the earth, and of secret combinations. D&C 42:64
March 8, 1831
Ye hear of wars in foreign lands; but, behold, I say unto you, they are nigh, even at your doors, and not many years hence ye shall hear of wars in your own lands.
64 Wherefore I, the Lord, have said, gather ye out from the eastern lands, assemble ye yourselves together ye elders of my church; go ye forth into the western countries, call upon the inhabitants to repent, and inasmuch as they do repent, build up churches unto me. D&C 45:63-64
Then on Christmas 1832 Joseph Smith received the Civil War prophecy. Brigham Young would later state the circumstances surrounding this prophecy:
Brother Joseph had that revelation concerning this nation at a time when the brethren were reflecting and reasoning with regard to African slavery on this continent, and the slavery of the children of men throughout the world. There are other revelations, besides this one, not yet published to the world.
Journal of Discourses, 8:58.
When reading this think of the Civil War, WW1 and WW2, how after the world wars the imperialist nations were weakened and 3rd world nations all around the world started declaring their independence, how under the cold war as the Soviet Union was marshaled for war nations enslaved under communism became free after the Soviet collapse.
On Dec. 25, 1832, Joseph received the following revelation about the American Civil War, now printed as Section 87 of the Doctrine and Covenants:
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;
7 That the cry of the Saints, and of the blood of the Saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Saboath, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.
"Beginning in the 1830s, LDS missionaries carried manuscript copies of the above revelation with them in their missionary journeys, and "frequently read it to their congregations in various parts of the United States" (Roberts, p. 315). The entire revelation was printed in 1851 in Liverpool, England, in a pamphlet entitled, "The Pearl of Great Price." This was a decade before the first shot of the Civil War on April 12, 1861. Thus, the prediction was made 28 years before its fulfillment, and was printed and circulated in England and in the United States at least ten years before."-
Alma Allred (op. cit., p. 166) explains that Joseph's prophecy about war being poured out on all nations had a wider application than just the Civil War, in spite of Mr. Geisler's uninspired translation of the text. Allred also explains that Orson Hyde was mocked by Eastern papers after an 1850 public speech in which he stated that war was about to divide the nation. In 1862, after the beginning of the Civil War, he wrote an "I told you so" letter to the editor of the Missouri Republican of Springfield. What he wrote shows that Joseph's prophecies of war went well beyond the Civil War and, as Allred puts it, "included an additional, chilling detail of events yet future." Here is the excerpt from Orson Hyde:
You have scarcely yet read the preface of your national trouble. Many nations will be drawn into the American maelstrom that now whirls through our land; and after many days, when the demon of war shall have exhausted his strength and madness upon American soil, by the destruction of all that can court or provoke opposition, he will remove his headquarters to the banks of the Rhine.
Millennial Star, 24 (3 May 1862):274-275, emphasis added.
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Morton
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And I forgot to mention Francis Collins -head of the Human Genome Project.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins
The silly thing about evangelical atheists is that there are so many better arguments against theism than the ones usually presented by most amateurs you find on internet forums. They may be atheist but they're mostly ant-deist or anti-religion.
You people who spout atheist dogma about the bible being entirely fiction or that reason is antithetical to faith are no different than evangelicals of any other religion spouting their own dogma. Same coin, different dogma.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins
The silly thing about evangelical atheists is that there are so many better arguments against theism than the ones usually presented by most amateurs you find on internet forums. They may be atheist but they're mostly ant-deist or anti-religion.
You people who spout atheist dogma about the bible being entirely fiction or that reason is antithetical to faith are no different than evangelicals of any other religion spouting their own dogma. Same coin, different dogma.
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Specific dates, names, places, and circumstances.
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What motive is obvious? Explain.
What probably goes the "other way?" Explain.
Anyway, your claims are simply your personal opinion, and your opinion are too vague.
Why do you say there is no proof that Jesus' side was pierced? What proof do you need? Explain.
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Anyway Morton, if you're asking: Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ?
Answer:
Typically, when this question is asked, the person asking qualifies the question with “outside of the Bible.” We do not grant this idea that the Bible cannot be considered a source of evidence for the existence of Jesus. The New Testament contains hundreds of references to Jesus Christ. There are those who date the writing of the Gospels to the second century A.D., more than 100 years after Jesus' death. Even if this were the case (which we strongly dispute), in terms of ancient evidences, writings less than 200 years after events took place are considered very reliable evidences. Further, the vast majority of scholars (Christian and non-Christian) will grant that the Epistles of Paul (at least some of them) were in fact written by Paul in the middle of the first century A.D., less than 40 years after Jesus' death. In terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D.
It is also important to recognize that in A.D. 70, the Romans invaded and destroyed Jerusalem and most of Israel, slaughtering its inhabitants. Entire cities were literally burned to the ground. We should not be surprised, then, if much evidence of Jesus' existence was destroyed. Many of the eyewitnesses of Jesus would have been killed. These facts likely limited the amount of surviving eyewitness testimony of Jesus.
Some of the more important historical evidences of Jesus include the following:
The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).
Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”
Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).
Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.
The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.
Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.
Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.
Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.
In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).
There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.
Read more: Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ?
Answer:
Typically, when this question is asked, the person asking qualifies the question with “outside of the Bible.” We do not grant this idea that the Bible cannot be considered a source of evidence for the existence of Jesus. The New Testament contains hundreds of references to Jesus Christ. There are those who date the writing of the Gospels to the second century A.D., more than 100 years after Jesus' death. Even if this were the case (which we strongly dispute), in terms of ancient evidences, writings less than 200 years after events took place are considered very reliable evidences. Further, the vast majority of scholars (Christian and non-Christian) will grant that the Epistles of Paul (at least some of them) were in fact written by Paul in the middle of the first century A.D., less than 40 years after Jesus' death. In terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D.
It is also important to recognize that in A.D. 70, the Romans invaded and destroyed Jerusalem and most of Israel, slaughtering its inhabitants. Entire cities were literally burned to the ground. We should not be surprised, then, if much evidence of Jesus' existence was destroyed. Many of the eyewitnesses of Jesus would have been killed. These facts likely limited the amount of surviving eyewitness testimony of Jesus.
Some of the more important historical evidences of Jesus include the following:
The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).
Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”
Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).
Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.
The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.
Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.
Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.
Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.
In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).
There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.
Read more: Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ?
Morton
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I'm not asking if Jesus existed. I think its clear that he did, based on historical evidence. However, I don't accept every word in the NT as history. Nor does any serious biblical scholar.
You can't point to a passage in the gospels or the rest of the NT and say: "There, thats proof". Well you can, but you're simply proclaiming faith. Faith and proof don't belong together.
I have the same problem with liberal scholars. They start from: "Supernatural-ism is not possible". From there they embrace the same fallacies of the believer. "Jesus didn't perform miracles because miracles can't exist" is the same as "We know its true, because the NT says so". Both are faith arguments.
You can't point to a passage in the gospels or the rest of the NT and say: "There, thats proof". Well you can, but you're simply proclaiming faith. Faith and proof don't belong together.
I have the same problem with liberal scholars. They start from: "Supernatural-ism is not possible". From there they embrace the same fallacies of the believer. "Jesus didn't perform miracles because miracles can't exist" is the same as "We know its true, because the NT says so". Both are faith arguments.
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What the Apostles wrote were eye-witnesses accounts.
You asked about the pierced side of Jesus - that was a given detail by eye-witnesses to His murder.
The description as to the flow of blood and water when He was pierced is proof of the validity of the eye-witness account since modern science can corroborate what that would mean.
John 19
The Death of Jesus
28 Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”[c] 37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”[d]
Question: "Why did blood and water come out of Jesus' side when He was pierced?"
Answer: The Roman flogging or scourging that Jesus endured prior to being crucified normally consisted of 39 lashes, but could have been more (Mark 15:15; John 19:1). The whip that was used, called a flagrum, consisted of braided leather thongs with metal balls and pieces of sharp bone woven into or intertwined with the braids. The balls added weight to the whip, causing deep bruising and contusions as the victim was struck. The pieces of bone served to cut into the flesh. As the beating continued, the resulting cuts were so severe that the skeletal muscles, underlying veins, sinews, and bowels of victims were exposed. This beating was so severe that at times victims would not survive it in order to go on to be crucified.
Those who were flogged would often go into hypovolemic shock, a term that refers to low blood volume. In other words, the person would have lost so much blood he would go into shock. The results of this would be
1) The heart would race to pump blood that was not there.
2) The victim would collapse or faint due to low blood pressure.
3) The kidneys would shut down to preserve body fluids.
4) The person would experience extreme thirst as the body desired to replenish lost fluids.
There is evidence from Scripture that Jesus experienced hypovolemic shock as a result of being flogged. As Jesus carried His own cross to Golgotha (John 19:17), He collapsed, and a man named Simon was forced to either carry the cross or help Jesus carry the cross the rest of way to the hill (Matthew 27:32–33; Mark 15:21–22; Luke 23:26). This collapse indicates Jesus had low blood pressure. Another indicator that Jesus suffered from hypovolemic shock was that He declared He was thirsty as He hung on the cross (John 19:28), indicating His body’s desire to replenish fluids.
Prior to death, the sustained rapid heartbeat caused by hypovolemic shock also causes fluid to gather in the sack around the heart and around the lungs. This gathering of fluid in the membrane around the heart is called pericardial effusion, and the fluid gathering around the lungs is called pleural effusion. This explains why, after Jesus died and a Roman soldier thrust a spear through Jesus’ side (probably His right side, piercing both the lungs and the heart), blood and water came from His side just as John recorded in his Gospel (John 19:34).
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How do you think they've made the entire birth narratives to fit the prophecies? Explain.
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Morton, you've already acknowledged that there's historical evidence that Jesus did exist.
Here's what Jesus Christ (The prophesied Messiah from the OT) had to go through in order to fulfill some of the prophecies from the OT:
John 19
Jesus Sentenced to Be Crucified
19 Then Pilate took Jesus and had him flogged. 2 The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe 3 and went up to him again and again, saying, “Hail, king of the Jews!” And they slapped him in the face.
4 Once more Pilate came out and said to the Jews gathered there, “Look, I am bringing him out to you to let you know that I find no basis for a charge against him.” 5 When Jesus came out wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe, Pilate said to them, “Here is the man!”
6 As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”
But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”
7 The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”
8 When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, 9 and he went back inside the palace. “Where do you come from?” he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10 “Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”
11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”
12 From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jewish leaders kept shouting, “If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar.”
13 When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge’s seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). 14 It was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about noon.
“Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews.
15 But they shouted, “Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!”
“Shall I crucify your king?” Pilate asked.
“We have no king but Caesar,” the chief priests answered.
16 Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.
The Crucifixion of Jesus
So the soldiers took charge of Jesus. 17 Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha). 18 There they crucified him, and with him two others—one on each side and Jesus in the middle.
19 Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: jesus of nazareth, the king of the jews. 20 Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek. 21 The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, “Do not write ‘The King of the Jews,’ but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews.”
22 Pilate answered, “What I have written, I have written.”
23 When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom.
24 “Let’s not tear it,” they said to one another. “Let’s decide by lot who will get it.”
This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled that said,
“They divided my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.”[a]
So this is what the soldiers did.
25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” 27 and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
The Death of Jesus
28 Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”[c] 37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”[d]
My questions to you (and to all those who say the accounts had been "fudged" to fit the prophecies):
1. The motive? What's the motive of all involved to go through all this? There's got to be a motive.
2. How many people are involved in the "staging" to fit the prophecies? Everyone, from the major players to the most minor of characters/role - all the way back since His conception and birth - will have to be in on it.
3. The "staging" had to go on for a very long time - since the conception and birth of Jesus! To sustain such kind of staging, it means this "staging" took up most of their time, not to mention their lives. For what? The motive?
4. How many people voluntarily, and literally gave up their lives for the "staging?" John the Baptist, Judas Iscariot, the 11 Apostles, the man who volunteered for the part of Jesus Christ, the countless Christians who faced persecutions (fed to lions among other things)....
5. With all these people involved in a scam of this grand scale - not a single whistleblower came out to spill the beans.
Especially when body count started racking up!
6. Based on John 19 account, who would volunteer for the most important role of all - to play the part of Jesus?
Surely everyone knew how the play would end - it's all been prophesied!
Morton, you've got to convince us why you think what you suggest is even plausible.
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