Esquire Article on Birther Orly Taitz

[celticlord]

A non-trivial portion of the population is stupid. Those people are likely to believe stupid things. They are especially likely to believe stupid things when they support their pre-existing political positions.

I can't believe that I had to explain this to you.

Strangely enough, I can believe it quite easily.

 

[PogueMoran]

Let's suspend all logic and reason and pretend you just made a cogent point. Now, I'd love to see your explanation for these other polls:

9/11 opinion polls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are about a dozen polls in there all showing that significant portions of the population believe that the government was complicit in 9/11 or tried to cover it up. Are you going to claim that all of those are biased as well?



It was skewed in the same way?

The reps are the party of hicks and racists in the same way that the dems at the party of retards, truthers, and communists.

Do you see a common thread running through all of these polls?


A non-trivial portion of the population is stupid. Those people are likely to believe stupid things. They are especially likely to believe stupid things when they support their pre-existing political positions.

I can't believe that I had to explain this to you.

I actually read your wikipedia page and the polls that were run do not support the belief that a wide number of people think 9/11 was an inside job.

First question asked if the US Government and 9/11 commission actually did a thorough enough investigation. This question does not state that it was an inside job as the truthers believe.

Second question asks about building 7 it merely asks if people were aware that building 7 collapsed without being struck and if aware should it have been investigated. Once again no where does this question ask if it was an inside job

Third question is too open ended and asks whether it was thoroughly investigated or should have been further investigated

Newsweek's poll was if Saddam was involved in the attack on 9/11. Even in 2007 the country was split on what they believed.

The new york times poll talks about whether Bush officials knew about possible terrorist attacks occuring in the US before 9/11. Again not a question about if 9/11 was an inside job

Scripps howard asked the most direct questions.

The first question however is open ended I think the answers should have been separated it asks if officials participated in or took no action to stop them. These are two separate unrelated questions.

The last two are more direct and show a minority believes that either explosives were in the buildings or a cruise missile hit the pentagon. Again a minority.

Nowhere near the numbers who seem to believe Obama wasn't born here or wasn't eligible.

Also in the polls you posted there is more of a suggestion of gross negligence and subsequent coverup of the negligence and not so much so complicity

Also there has been no break down of political affiliation for truthers. That I would like to see to determine if it is as partisan as the bither movement.

 

[RightinNYC]

I actually read your wikipedia page and the polls that were run do not support the belief that a wide number of people think 9/11 was an inside job.
...

Nowhere near the numbers who seem to believe Obama wasn't born here or wasn't eligible.

Also there has been no break down of political affiliation for truthers. That I would like to see to determine if it is as partisan as the bither movement.

Did you actually read the link?

The first one was conducted in August 2004, on the eve of a Republican National Convention, on 808 randomly-selected residents of New York State. It found that 49 percent of New York City residents and 41 percent of New York state citizens believe individuals within the US government "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act"

A poll from July 2006, sponsored by Scripps Howard and conducted by Ohio University, surveyed 1,010 randomly-selected citizens of the United States, with a margin of error of 4 percent.[11] It made some statements relating to some of the 9/11 conspiracy theories and asked respondents to say whether they thought that the statements were likely to be true.

"Federal officials either participated in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon or took no action to stop them".

* 59% "not likely"
* 20% "somewhat likely"
* 16% "very likely"[12]

"The collapse of the twin towers in New York was aided by explosives secretly planted in the two buildings".

* 77% "unlikely"
* 10% "somewhat likely"
* 6% "very likely"[13]

"The Pentagon was struck by a military cruise missile in 2001 rather than by an airliner captured by terrorists".

* 80% "not likely"
* 6% "somewhat likely"
* 6% "very likely"[14]

Yea, those are really vague and unclear questions. It's not at all obvious what they're trying to say.

Re Scripps:

The poll found that a majority of young adults give at least some credence to a 9/11 conspiracy compared to less than a fourth of people 65 or older. Members of racial and ethnic minorities, people with only a high school education and Democrats were especially likely to suspect federal involvement in 9/11.

 

[sam_w]

Let's suspend all logic and reason and pretend you just made a cogent point. Now, I'd love to see your explanation for these other polls:

9/11 opinion polls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are about a dozen polls in there all showing that significant portions of the population believe that the government was complicit in 9/11 or tried to cover it up. Are you going to claim that all of those are biased as well?



It was skewed in the same way?

The reps are the party of hicks and racists in the same way that the dems at the party of retards, truthers, and communists.

Do you see a common thread running through all of these polls?


A non-trivial portion of the population is stupid. Those people are likely to believe stupid things. They are especially likely to believe stupid things when they support their pre-existing political positions.

I can't believe that I had to explain this to you.

1.) How many more times does the Rasmussan poll need to be explained to you? Fine, you are ignorant as hell and did not know about the Aug. 6th PDB. Most others did, it was all over the news for quite some time. So of course it is reasonable to assume that a well published briefing that warns of a Bin Laden attack would lead people to conclude that Bush had prior warning of an impending attack...imagine that logic. I understand now this may be beyond you know, so.....

2.) Fine, you don't like a poll commissioned by some blog. Then ignore it, and look at the other polls that come up with the same results. High percentage of Republicans believe in the birther conspiracy, much much higher than your flawed idea that Democrats believed Bush was behind 9/11 (to which again, that was NOT the question).

 

[sam_w]

It found that 49 percent of New York City residents and 41 percent of New York state citizens believe individuals within the US government "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act"

Could they believe that because.......members of the government testified before a commission that they knew al-Qaeda was planning to attack?

Go read Richard Clarke's Against All Enemies, then maybe you won't come off as so ignorant to this question. Go watch on youtube for god's sake to see Condi Rice herself testifying to their knowledge of threats. Go read what George Tenet had to say on 9/11 about some certain individuals he knew were in this country. Good lord, stop watching FIXed news for once.

 

[RightinNYC]

1.) How many more times does the Rasmussan poll need to be explained to you? Fine, you are ignorant as hell and did not know about the Aug. 6th PDB. Most others did, it was all over the news for quite some time. So of course it is reasonable to assume that a well published briefing that warns of a Bin Laden attack would lead people to conclude that Bush had prior warning of an impending attack...imagine that logic. I understand now this may be beyond you know, so.....

So you think that when asked the question "Did Bush know about the 9/11 attacks in advance," everyone is immediately saying "Oh, I wouldn't say that he was involved in any sort of conspiracy, but I would say that he got a warning that Al-Qaida was going to attack somewhere in the US at some indeterminate time, so I will answer 'yes' to this question"?

:rofl

Quick quiz: If everyone knew about the PDB and everyone was thinking of that when asked the question "Did Bush know about the 9/11 attacks in advance," then how come Democrats were so much more likely to say that Bush knew ahead of time?

2.) Fine, you don't like a poll commissioned by some blog. Then ignore it, and look at the other polls that come up with the same results. High percentage of Republicans believe in the birther conspiracy,

Where did I deny that a non-trivial portion of Republicans believed (or weren't sure) about this birther ****?

This falls under my "dumb people think dumb things" platform.

much much higher than your flawed idea that Democrats believed Bush was behind 9/11 (to which again, that was NOT the question).

I see that math isn't your strong suit:

% of Republicans who believe that Obama was not born in US: 28%
% of Democrats who believe that Bush knew about 9/11: 35%
% of New Yorkers (who are 5:1 Democrats) who believe that the US Gov had direct knowledge of 9/11 and let it happen: 49%

 

[PogueMoran]

I already told you I read the link.

The first one was conducted in August 2004, on the eve of a Republican National Convention, on 808 randomly-selected residents of New York State. It found that 49 percent of New York City residents and 41 percent of New York state citizens believe individuals within the US government "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act"

You're not reading what it says carefully and analyzing it. We have found out that they did know of the september 11th attacks in advance. This question does not lead to the thought of complicity. To be complicity they would have actually have had to aid in the attack that's not what this poll suggests. But rather they were warned and failed to act to stop it. Which is true. So again nowhere does the poll denote the thought that 9/11 was an inside job

"Federal officials either participated in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon or took no action to stop them".

* 59% "not likely"
* 20% "somewhat likely"
* 16% "very likely"[12]

Did I not say the last poll had the most direct questions. Its obvious that once it became more direct the whole truther theory that there is a big percentage of the population that believes 9/11 is an inside job falls into a major minority.

You have two questions there first if they partipated in or took no action to stop them. Without separating the question there is no information to tell if more people said the government took no action to stop them suggesting negligence or if they participated suggesting complicity. Those are two entirely different questions.

The collapse of the twin towers in New York was aided by explosives secretly planted in the two buildings".

* 77% "unlikely"
* 10% "somewhat likely"
* 6% "very likely"[13]

And look how low it drops.

"The Pentagon was struck by a military cruise missile in 2001 rather than by an airliner captured by terrorists".

* 80% "not likely"
* 6% "somewhat likely"
* 6% "very likely"[14]

So only 12% possibly believe it was a cruise missile. That's a very small minority nowhere near 22% who are either not sure or don't think Obama was born here. Nor the 58% of republicans who aren't sure or don't know.

The poll found that a majority of young adults give at least some credence to a 9/11 conspiracy compared to less than a fourth of people 65 or older. Members of racial and ethnic minorities, people with only a high school education and Democrats were especially likely to suspect federal involvement in 9/11.

Again I want to see the partisan breakdown not just claiming something but the numbers of people who were flat out asked if 9/11 was an inside job.

 

[RightinNYC]

Could they believe that because.......members of the government testified before a commission that they knew al-Qaeda was planning to attack?

Go read Richard Clarke's Against All Enemies, then maybe you won't come off as so ignorant to this question. Go watch on youtube for god's sake to see Condi Rice herself testifying to their knowledge of threats. Go read what George Tenet had to say on 9/11 about some certain individuals he knew were in this country. Good lord, stop watching FIXed news for once.

I think that the problem is more that you read "Did bush know about 9/11 before it happened" and say "oh, well he heard about the PDB, so that means he knew about 9/11."

This is not the proper response, because the question did not ask "Did Bush receive notice that Al-Qaida was planning to attack within the US at some point before 9/11."

My contention is that when the average person is asked "Did Bush know about 9/11 before it happened," they are thinking "Did Bush know about the plans to strike the WTC on 9/11 before it happened?"

The fact that you're incapable of understanding this and instead resort to personal attacks and insinuations that I don't know what I'm talking about does not reflect well on you.

 

[PogueMoran]

So you think that when asked the question "Did Bush know about the 9/11 attacks in advance," everyone is immediately saying "Oh, I wouldn't say that he was involved in any sort of conspiracy, but I would say that he got a warning that Al-Qaida was going to attack somewhere in the US at some indeterminate time, so I will answer 'yes' to this question"?

:rofl

Quick quiz: If everyone knew about the PDB and everyone was thinking of that when asked the question "Did Bush know about the 9/11 attacks in advance," then how come Democrats were so much more likely to say that Bush knew ahead of time?




Where did I deny that a non-trivial portion of Republicans believed (or weren't sure) about this birther ****?

This falls under my "dumb people think dumb things" platform.



I see that math isn't your strong suit:

% of Republicans who believe that Obama was not born in US: 28%
% of Democrats who believe that Bush knew about 9/11: 35%
% of New Yorkers (who are 5:1 Democrats) who believe that the US Gov had direct knowledge of 9/11 and let it happen: 49%

Again where in your numbers are people asked if they specifically believe 9/11 was an inside job. I'd like to see the crosstabs on that.

The government having direct knowledge and being negligent is pretty well known. There was a complete failure to act on 9/11. This does not support the birthers claim that 9/11 was an inside job. So again come back with a poll that specifically asks if people believe 9/11 was an inside job with the crosstabs and you might actually have an argument.

 

[sam_w]

I think that the problem is more that you read "Did bush know about 9/11 before it happened" and say "oh, well he heard about the PDB, so that means he knew about 9/11."

This is not the proper response, because the question did not ask "Did Bush receive notice that Al-Qaida was planning to attack within the US at some point before 9/11."

My contention is that when the average person is asked "Did Bush know about 9/11 before it happened," they are thinking "Did Bush know about the plans to strike the WTC on 9/11 before it happened?"

The fact that you're incapable of understanding this and instead resort to personal attacks and insinuations that I don't know what I'm talking about does not reflect well on you.

No, here you are drawing yourself conclusions to fit your partisan goggles. Like I said, turn off the FIXed News channel and get a clue. This was all over the headlines for quite some time. We had live coverage of the commission, books written (do you people even read books?), countless interviews, and documentaries (no, not Michael Moore, PBS). Fact is simple, which you ignorantly ignore, the Bush administration was given repeated warnings to which they ignored. Bush's own former Treasury Secretary said himself that in July 2001 their most pressing item in the Middle East was how to get into Iraq. That is months before 9/11.

Bush Sought ‘Way’ To Invade Iraq?

Richard Clarke Speaks Out

 

[PogueMoran]

I think that the problem is more that you read "Did bush know about 9/11 before it happened" and say "oh, well he heard about the PDB, so that means he knew about 9/11."

This is not the proper response, because the question did not ask "Did Bush receive notice that Al-Qaida was planning to attack within the US at some point before 9/11."

My contention is that when the average person is asked "Did Bush know about 9/11 before it happened," they are thinking "Did Bush know about the plans to strike the WTC on 9/11 before it happened?"

The fact that you're incapable of understanding this and instead resort to personal attacks and insinuations that I don't know what I'm talking about does not reflect well on you.

Conversely the question did not ask Did Bush participate in the terrorist attacks of 9/11. Which would support your idea that the truthers are more abundant. It simply asked if he knew they were going to attack. That simple question alone is a yes. Just as Bush knew that the levies would fail during Katrina because he was informed about it.

The poll you are citing about prior knowledge didn't ask it that way. It asked if the administration had prior knowledge about possible attacks in the US.

 

[sam_w]

Again where in your numbers are people asked if they specifically believe 9/11 was an inside job. I'd like to see the crosstabs on that.

The government having direct knowledge and being negligent is pretty well known. There was a complete failure to act on 9/11. This does not support the birthers claim that 9/11 was an inside job. So again come back with a poll that specifically asks if people believe 9/11 was an inside job with the crosstabs and you might actually have an argument.

9/11 Truthers are not the same as people educated to know that there was repeated warnings given prior to 9/11. Knowing that Bush dropped the ball is not the same as believing some grand conspiracy. Rasmussen asked a question of whether Bush knew in advance, not that he played a part. This is not an implication that Bush was some evil mastermind, but rather an incompetent moron who was too fixated on Iraq and tax cuts.

 

[PogueMoran]

9/11 Truthers are not the same as people educated to know that there was repeated warnings given prior to 9/11. Knowing that Bush dropped the ball is not the same as believing some grand conspiracy. Rasmussen asked a question of whether Bush knew in advance, not that he played a part. This is not an implication that Bush was some evil mastermind, but rather an incompetent moron who was too fixated on Iraq and tax cuts.

Don't forget their idea of countering terrorism was missile defense

 

[RightinNYC]

Again where in your numbers are people asked if they specifically believe 9/11 was an inside job. I'd like to see the crosstabs on that.

The government having direct knowledge and being negligent is pretty well known. There was a complete failure to act on 9/11. This does not support the birthers claim that 9/11 was an inside job. So again come back with a poll that specifically asks if people believe 9/11 was an inside job with the crosstabs and you might actually have an argument.

I'm sorry that you can't read and understand a question.

No, here you are drawing yourself conclusions to fit your partisan goggles. Like I said, turn off the FIXed News channel and get a clue. This was all over the headlines for quite some time. We had live coverage of the commission, books written (do you people even read books?), countless interviews, and documentaries (no, not Michael Moore, PBS). Fact is simple, which you ignorantly ignore, the Bush administration was given repeated warnings to which they ignored. Bush's own former Treasury Secretary said himself that in July 2001 their most pressing item in the Middle East was how to get into Iraq. That is months before 9/11.

Bush Sought ‘Way’ To Invade Iraq?

Richard Clarke Speaks Out

Again, making idiotic statements such as this isn't helping your position.

Conversely the question did not ask Did Bush participate in the terrorist attacks of 9/11. Which would support your idea that the truthers are more abundant. It simply asked if he knew they were going to attack. That simple question alone is a yes. Just as Bush knew that the levies would fail during Katrina because he was informed about it.

This may well be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

Are you seriously arguing that Bush knew the levies would fail?

The poll you are citing about prior knowledge didn't ask it that way. It asked if the administration had prior knowledge about possible attacks in the US.

I'm sorry that you're incapable of reading and comprehending.

 

[PogueMoran]

I'm sorry that you can't read and understand a question.

I understand the question quite perfectly. I'm not the one misinterpreting it. Maybe you're having problems with reading comprehension?

This may well be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

Are you seriously arguing that Bush knew the levies would fail?

Not stupid at all President Bush was warned that the levies would fail. Just as he was warned that Al Qaida was determined to strike in the US. He was warned by Dr. Max Maxfield, Director of the National Hurricane center on the Sunday before Katrina made landfall. Again more gross negligence which is what your polls talk about. Just because you were uninformed about it doesn't make it stupid.

I'm sorry that you're incapable of reading and comprehending.

And I'm sorry you don't understand the english language. The poll was pretty clear.

Your New York/CBS Times Poll

"When it comes to what they knew prior to September 11th, 2001, about possible terrorist attacks against the United States, do you think members of the Bush Administration are telling the truth, are mostly telling the truth but hiding something, or are they mostly lying?"

As the question asks this the answer is yes. They did know about possible terrorist attacks they actually had run drills about that exact same scenario. The August memo proves they knew about a possible attack. Again this does not support your notion of the polls saying a lot of people believe in the truther movement. Or that any of your polls support your contention.

 

[Zyphlin]

Could someone please explain to me how under 30% of people believing that Obama wasn't a U.S. citizen is a "very high" percentage but 36% believing its likely the U.S. government was involved in 9/11 or knew about it and let it happen for us to go to war is a "small minority"?

 

[PogueMoran]

Could someone please explain to me how under 30% of people believing that Obama wasn't a U.S. citizen is a "very high" percentage but 36% believing its likely the U.S. government was involved in 9/11 or knew about it and let it happen for us to go to war is a "small minority"?

Again none of the polls specifically asked if people believed 9/11 was an inside job. Without a breakdown of that 36% being for those who think the government may be complicit compared to those who just think the government knew and were negligent its hard to gauge where people stand. Its not the same as people asking if they think Barack Obama is was born in the US. One is more direct, the other isn't. Now for the polls that asked direct questions like did a missile hit the pentagon or do you believe there were explosives in the towers the percentage goes down. There has been no poll asking directly if they thought 9/11 was an inside job.

 

[Zyphlin]

Actually, the Poll I'm referencing asked specifically:

Do you believe federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East.

So either do you think the government was involved, or willingly allowed it to happen. Neither are reasonable, non-conspiracy theory thoughts.

 

[PogueMoran]

Actually, the Poll I'm referencing asked specifically:

Do you believe federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East.

So either do you think the government was involved, or willingly allowed it to happen. Neither are reasonable, non-conspiracy theory thoughts.

No the poll did not specifically. Saying that the government assisted or failed to act are two separate questions with completely different answers. No poll specifically asks if the government assisted in the attacks.

Saying the government failed to act is not a conspiracy theory but is reality. Even the 9/11 commission concluded such that there was massive failure at the government level to stop the attacks. We do now know the government was warned about attacks and as they happened failed to act. Once again not a conspiracy theory just gross negligence.

 

[Zyphlin]

No the poll did not specifically. Saying that the government assisted or failed to act are two separate questions with completely different answers. No poll specifically asks if the government assisted in the attacks.

Saying the government failed to act is not a conspiracy theory but is reality. Even the 9/11 commission concluded such that there was massive failure at the government level to stop the attacks. We do now know the government was warned about attacks and as they happened failed to act. Once again not a conspiracy theory just gross negligence.

Saying they PURPOSEFULLY failed to act so as to use it as an excuse to go to war is not the same as saying "The government knew about it but didn't act". One is an overt act of negligence, the other is something that happens with dozens of terrorist threads daily

 

[PogueMoran]

Saying they PURPOSEFULLY failed to act so as to use it as an excuse to go to war is not the same as saying "The government knew about it but didn't act". One is an overt act of negligence, the other is something that happens with dozens of terrorist threads daily

Which poll states that? None of the polls Right posted said as such. Do you have a source?

Which polling outfit ran that question: Do you believe federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East

 

[obvious Child]

Orly Taitz is a facebook fan of Sarah Palin and Ron Paul.

Anyone else laughing at that massive dichotomy?

As Celtic rightly put it, she's a dumb blonde.