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Elizabeth Warren's Native American Problem

Jack Hays said:
I haven't called you dishonest or a liar. I called you obtuse. That seems fair.
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You accused me of misrepresenting what was in your own posts. Tomato, tahmahto. Now then, have a nice day, Jack. I'm perfectly happy to let any reader make up their own mind about who's being dishonest here, given your most recent admission.
 
FieldTheorist said:
You accused me of misrepresenting what was in your own posts. Tomato, tahmahto. Now then, have a nice day, Jack. I'm perfectly happy to let any reader make up their own mind about who's being dishonest here.
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"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." --Talleyrand
 
Middleground said:
Are you ****ing kidding me? And tell me -- how is she being dishonest here? You would have to believe that she was intentionally pushing a lie. If your parent told you when you were 18 that you were adopted when all through your life you told told everyone they were your biological parents, does that make you a liar?
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It doesn't even matter if she is or she isn't lying. It looks like she is. Its called optics and its a gigantic part of politics. She has had plenty of time to find out the truth and vindicate herself or apologize for the error and that's really all that matters. No, I am not ****ing kidding you.

Side note: Go Eagles!
 
Middleground said:
Are you ****ing kidding me? And tell me -- how is she being dishonest here? You would have to believe that she was intentionally pushing a lie. If your parent told you when you were 18 that you were adopted when all through your life you told told everyone they were your biological parents, does that make you a liar?
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In their world, yes, it does make you dishonest. Fox News told them it was a dishonesty, therefore it was dishonesty.
 
FieldTheorist said:
You accused me of misrepresenting what was in your own posts. Tomato, tahmahto. Now then, have a nice day, Jack. I'm perfectly happy to let any reader make up their own mind about who's being dishonest here, given your most recent admission.
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And btw, please note that haymarket, never a shrinking violet and no ally to me, has not rushed to your support. Just sayin'.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Except that seems to run counter to the general view (feeling?) on the left that one can (should?) be (or is that become?) any gender, race or ethnicity that they feel more comfortable with. The fact that Warren became or evolved into a Native American (once she got to Harvard) should not be looked down on according to some in this thread. If she simply believed herself to have 1/32 of a Native American feeling. Aren't we often told that feelings (desires?) are the "true" reality?
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I don't recognize the idea that transgender issues relate to some sort of transracial thing.

There is a sense that our perspectives are real to us, that our behavior is influenced by our perspectives. If my opinion is that dogs are awesome, it is a fact that my opinion is that dogs are awesome. So there's a way for subjectivity to become objective through expression.

Race is not scientifically defined, but the definition we have is based on ancestry, which is basically immutable.

Gender is related to sex which has at least five dimensions (external genitalia, gonads, internal reproductive anatomy, sex hormones, and chromosomes), where one of those dimensions might not agree with the others. So there's a scientific fluidity to justify what it means to be transgender.

But, more to the point, if she believed her heritage was X, then she wasn't lying to claim X heritage. What she said might have been false, but if she believed it, then it wasn't intentionally false. Since the accusation is that she said something intentionally false, it's speculation: there's no way to prove her intent either way.
 
Jack Hays said:
The story was published by the Boston Globe, hardly a bastion of the right wing. The criticism and calls for an apology come from people on the left, not the right.
The point here is not the veracity of her claim, but criticism directed at her from the left because there's no evidence to support her claim.
As a historical note, please recall both Penn and Harvard touted her as a minority faculty member, and Harvard called her the law faculty's "first woman of color."
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It is because they have been misinformed by the spin machine.

And make no mistake -- her criticism is not coming from the left. The left love Warren because she is a damn fine Senator who looks out for "the People" rather than those who would love to line her pockets. Makes all the others look bad. And this is why this story will not end. Nobody gives one iota of a **** about this apart from those who are afraid of her effectiveness and intelligence. Whether she is has 1% Cherokee blood or not, it's irrelevant. There is alsolutely zero evidence that her career was advanced because she claimed to be a minority. Zero. Nada.

And along the same lines answer me this: think Dubya got into Yale because of his intelligence? Think Trump got into Wharton because he was such a great student? That he got the best marks like he always brags about? Huh? How bout that? If you answer no to both, does it bother you as much as Warren?
 
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Jack Hays said:
This won't go away. A DNA test would resolve the matter, but she has not done that. Now even her supporters are calling on her to apologize.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/na...nd-politics/uK9pGOl4JBmqmRUcxTNj3H/story.html


Elizabeth Warren’s Native American problem goes beyond politics

WASHINGTON — There’s a ghost haunting Elizabeth Warren as she ramps up for a possible 2020 presidential bid and a reelection campaign in Massachusetts this year: her enduring and undocumented claims of Native American ancestry.
Warren says now, as she has from the first days of her public life, that she based her assertions on family lore, on her reasonable trust in what she was told about her ancestry as a child.
“I know who I am,” she said in a recent interview with the Globe.

But that self-awareness may not be enough, as her political ambitions blossom. She’s taken flak from the right for years as a “fake Indian,” including taunts from President Trump, who derisively calls her “Pocahontas.’’ That clamor from the right will only grow with her increasing prominence.

And, more telling, there’s also discomfort on the left and among some tribal leaders and activists that Warren has a political blind spot when it comes to the murkiness surrounding her story of her heritage, which blew up as an issue in her victorious 2012 Massachusetts Senate race. In recent months, Daily Show host Trevor Noah mocked her for claiming Native American ancestry and the liberal website ThinkProgress published a scathing criticism of her by a Cherokee activist who said she should apologize.
As Warren is mentioned as a serious presidential contender in 2020, even some who should be her natural allies say Warren has displayed a stubborn unwillingness to address the gap between the story she was told of Native Americans in the family tree and a dearth of hard evidence to back it up.
It’s a disconnect that has lingered unresolved in the public sphere for more than five years. . . .
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OK, so let's see here: on the one hand, we have Warren whose family told her growing up that she has some native American heritage.

On the other, we have someone who has told his supporters he will cover their legal fees if they physically beat those with opposite views, had an extramarital affair with a porn star, settled out of court for the Trump University scam, just made up stuff questioning a sitting president's birth certificate for 5 years straight, refused to show his taxes, boasted about grabbing women's private parts, and called KKK protestors "fine people".

Hmmmm.... boy, this is going to be a tough call!
 
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OpportunityCost said:
It doesn't even matter if she is or she isn't lying. It looks like she is. Its called optics and its a gigantic part of politics. She has had plenty of time to find out the truth and vindicate herself or apologize for the error and that's really all that matters. No, I am not ****ing kidding you.

Side note: Go Eagles!
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Are you a Trump supporter?
 
Middleground said:
It is because they have been misinformed by the spin machine.

And make no mistake -- her criticism is not coming from the left. The left love Warren because she is a damn fine Senator who looks out for "the People" rather than those who would love to line her pockets. Makes all the others look bad. And this is why this story will not end. Nobody gives one iota of a **** about this apart from those who are afraid of her effectiveness and intelligence. Whether she is has 1% Cherokee blood or not, it's irrelevant. There is alsolutely zero evidence that her career was advanced because she claimed to be a minority. Zero. Nada.

And along the same lines answer me this: think Dubya got into Yale because of his intelligence? Think Trump got into Wharton because he was such a great student? That he got the best marks like he always brags about? Huh? How bout that? If you answer yes to both, does it bother you as much as Warren?
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It seems you have not read the OP article. The criticism is from the left and based on a left grievance: appropriation of Native American heritage. No one on the right spun that.

GWB and DJT both no doubt owed their prestigious college admissions to family ties and/or $ contributions. That violates no constitutional principle. My own view of EW is really not relevant here because I'm not the critic.
 
ataraxia said:
OK, so let's see here: on the one hand, we have Warren whose family told her growing up that she has some native American heritage.

On the other, we have someone who has told his supporters he will cover their legal fees if they physically beat those with opposite views, had an extramarital affair with a porn star, settled out of court for the Trump University scam, just made up stuff questioning a sitting president's birth certificate for 5 years straight, refused to show his taxes, boasted about grabbing women's private parts, and called KKK protestors "fine people".

Hmmmm.... boy, this is going to be a tough call!
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DJT is a national embarrassment. I certainly don't defend him.

The criticism of EW is from the left. That's what makes it so dangerous for her, IMHO.
 
Jack Hays said:
It seems you have not read the OP article. The criticism is from the left and based on a left grievance: appropriation of Native American heritage. No one on the right spun that.

GWB and DJT both no doubt owed their prestigious college admissions to family ties and/or $ contributions. That violates no constitutional principle. My own view of EW is really not relevant here because I'm not the critic.
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I did read the article. I stand by wha I wrote.
 
Jack Hays said:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." --Talleyrand
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"When someone shows you who they are, believe them." Maya Angelou

"You can fool some people some of the time...? A. Lincoln

"You're grasping." Parrish
 
Parrish said:
You've spent 4 days of your life on this thread and proven that you're just another partisan hack.
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I started the thread because it's an interesting and unusual situation. The bonus is that it's not about Trump, of whom I'm quite tired. It has been fascinating that DPers on the left can't get out of their left-right defensive crouch to think about a real practical political problem that could have an impact in the Presidential primaries.
 
Middleground said:
Are you a Trump supporter?
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The morality of the questions being put to Warren are unaffected by support of lack of it I have for Trump. Go play whataboutism and moral relativism with someone else I can see the hook in that post.
 
Jack Hays said:
I started the thread because it's an interesting and unusual situation. The bonus is that it's not about Trump, of whom I'm quite tired. It has been fascinating that DPers on the left can't get out of their left-right defensive crouch to think about a real practical political problem that could have an impact in the Presidential primaries.
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BS. You're grasping and oh, so transparent.
 
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