Down goes General Lee[W:525]

[Moot]

Re: Down goes General Lee

The 1869 SCOTUS ruling was a case of Winners writing history. Scalia, whom I admired, was just quoting chapter and verse out of the post-Civil War bible of Americana. The Winners have retroactively insured that the South was in the wrong and the North in the right.

But it's the official story now, the official bull****. At the time the Southern States seceded, they had every right to secede.
I'm not from the South, but I'm an American and I know a whitewash when I see one.


Hints, reasons alluded to, changing the subject (from secession to slavery). The anachronistic landscape of the Progressive mind is terra incognita, yes?

"...in order to form a more perfect union"...suggests that secession was not a protected right or constitutional.

 

[Angel]

Re: Down goes General Lee

"...in order to form a more perfect union"...suggests that secession was not a protected right or constitutional.

Moot, the nation had just gone through a bloodbath over the issue, the Union had been victorious at great cost, and it fell to the Supreme Court to make sure nothing like that ever happened again. The Supreme Court ruling of 1869 is comparable to a ruling that divorce is forever illegal because husband and wife agreed that the marriage was "till death do us part." It was, and is, a National Legal Fiction. Americans down to Scalia have bought into the National Fiction for obvious reasons.

No, the South may have been wrong on the question of slavery, but the South was right about secession.

 

[Moot]

Re: Down goes General Lee

Moot, the nation had just gone through a bloodbath over the issue, the Union had been victorious at great cost, and it fell to the Supreme Court to make sure nothing like that ever happened again. The Supreme Court ruling of 1869 is comparable to a ruling that divorce is forever illegal because husband and wife agreed that the marriage was "till death do us part." It was, and is, a National Legal Fiction. Americans down to Scalia have bought into the National Fiction for obvious reasons.

No, the South may have been wrong on the question of slavery, but the South was right about secession.

Well...Andrew Jackson didn't think secession was a Constitutional right when S. Carolina tried it the first time, either.

"...The Constitution forms a government, not a league. Each state having expressly parted with so many powers as to constitute jointly with other nations, a single nation, cannot from that period, posses any right to secede, because such succession does not break a league, but destroys the unity of a nation.... To say that any state may at pleasure secede from the union is to say that the United States is not a nation.... Because the union was formed by a compact, it is said that the parties to that compact may, when they feel themselves aggrieved, depart from it; but it is precisely because it is a compact that they may not. A compact is a binding obligation...."

Proclamation to the People of South Carolina​

 

[BillRM]

Re: Down goes General Lee

I think Sam Houston was right....without the protection of the Union, the South would have dwindled into a disunion of petty states...run by petty tyrants...a banana republic. Their leaders had neither the wisdom nor the caliber of the founders that created this nation.


https://deadconfederates.com/2014/12/22/houston-the-union-is-a-bulwark-against-british-abolition/

Let see Texas was form to be a slave state from the very beginning in fact the big issue between the American settlers in Texas and the Mexican government was that slavery was not allowed in Mexico.

Next if an overwhelming percent of a state population would wish now to leave the Union you would be for that state to be kept in the union by overwhelming force and at bayonet point?

Even if keeping the state in the union you would need to turn the state into a police state to enforce that status?

Note not even the former masters of the USSR try to use force to keep their nation together beyond a very weak attempt at the beginning of the break up.

 

[BillRM]

Re: Down goes General Lee

"...in order to form a more perfect union"...suggests that secession was not a protected right or constitutional.

The following suggest that a people have indeed a right and even at times a duty to set up a new government to better meet their needs however.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

 

[Angel]

Re: Down goes General Lee

Well...Andrew Jackson didn't think secession was a Constitutional right when S. Carolina tried it the first time, either.

"...The Constitution forms a government, not a league. Each state having expressly parted with so many powers as to constitute jointly with other nations, a single nation, cannot from that period, posses any right to secede, because such succession does not break a league, but destroys the unity of a nation.... To say that any state may at pleasure secede from the union is to say that the United States is not a nation.... Because the union was formed by a compact, it is said that the parties to that compact may, when they feel themselves aggrieved, depart from it; but it is precisely because it is a compact that they may not. A compact is a binding obligation...."

Proclamation to the People of South Carolina​

I love Jackson, and his argument against nullification is sound enough, but his argument against secession is mostly rhetoric. He threatened force, I believe, but didn't have to use it. Lincoln did. What President then or now is going to abide secession on his watch? Still, a compact is just a weightier name for a contract or agreement, and all may be broken for cause.

 

[slick]

Re: Down goes General Lee

No, they were fighting to preserve the institution of slavery in the south.

Apparently, neither Lee nor Johnston, despite their words, found slavery offensive enough to actually do anything about it. Quite the contrary, in fact, given that they commanded troops for a slaveocracy.

When group #2 practices an evil act(say....date raping women) group #2 does not have the right to tell group #1 that it's "none of their business". Group #1 is both morally and legally responsible to get group #2 to stop.

Considering that the south ran the federal government like a "central tyranny" for thirty years prior to the civil war, they clearly didn't have a problem with it beforehand.

If you were honest about it you would know that 90% of those living in the North as you say 'didn't have a problem with it beforehand'
either. Garrison and his band of abolishinists weren't terribly popular by there northern neighbors as I recall.

 

[Moot]

Re: Down goes General Lee

Let see Texas was form to be a slave state from the very beginning in fact the big issue between the American settlers in Texas and the Mexican government was that slavery was not allowed in Mexico.

Next if an overwhelming percent of a state population would wish now to leave the Union you would be for that state to be kept in the union by overwhelming force and at bayonet point?

Even if keeping the state in the union you would need to turn the state into a police state to enforce that status?

I think Texas Governor, Sam Houston said it best...

"All new states are invested, more or less, by a class of noisy, second-rate men who are always in favor of rash and extreme measures, but Texas was absolutely overrun by such men."

"To secede from the Union and set up another government would cause war. If you go to war with the United States, you will never conquer her, as she has the money and the men. If she does not whip you by guns, powder, and steel, she will starve you to death. It will take the flower of the country — the young men."


The Proslavery Argument Against Secession - Austin, September 22, 1860

Sam Houston's Proslavery Argument Against Secession​

 

[akyron]

Re: Down goes General Lee

Losing an election doesn't mean you can't fight. You and your obama haters showed that. So looks like you guys lost this.

Nah we mostly went to work until the pillaging of the country was completed.

We don't get paid to protest.

Must be nice.

 

[BillRM]

Re: Down goes General Lee

Well...Andrew Jackson didn't think secession was a Constitutional right when S. Carolina tried it the first time, either.

"...The Constitution forms a government, not a league. Each state having expressly parted with so many powers as to constitute jointly with other nations, a single nation, cannot from that period, posses any right to secede, because such succession does not break a league, but destroys the unity of a nation.... To say that any state may at pleasure secede from the union is to say that the United States is not a nation.... Because the union was formed by a compact, it is said that the parties to that compact may, when they feel themselves aggrieved, depart from it; but it is precisely because it is a compact that they may not. A compact is a binding obligation...."

Proclamation to the People of South Carolina​

footnote the first section of the nation who talked about leaving the Union was the New English states and there was even a convention of the Federal party over the matter and talks between them and an agent of the British government.

 

[katzgar]

Re: Down goes General Lee

"...in order to form a more perfect union"...suggests that secession was not a protected right or constitutional.

Exactly and the Confederacy was described as perpetual with the Union declared as more perfect in the Constitution while a bit vague the suggested is that secession was not legal

 

[Moot]

Re: Down goes General Lee

I love Jackson, and his argument against nullification is sound enough, but his argument against secession is mostly rhetoric. He threatened force, I believe, but didn;t have to use it. Lincoln did. What President then or now is going to abide secession on his watch? Still, a compact is just a weightier name for a contract or agreement, and all may be broken for cause.

Congress passed a "Force Bill" right after Jackson sent that letter granting him the power to use military force if S. Carolina didn't comply with the law and tried to secede.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_Bill


Obviously, the compact meant a lot more to Andrew Jackson and Abraham Lincoln than it does to you.

 

[Praxas]

Re: Down goes General Lee

Nah we mostly went to work until the pillaging of the country was completed.

We don't get paid to protest.

Must be nice.

How's that General lee statue doing? Oh yeah it's down, you lost.

 

[Moot]

Re: Down goes General Lee

footnote the first section of the nation who talked about leaving the Union was the New English states and there was even a convention of the Federal party over the matter and talks between them and an agent of the British government.

Not sure what you're footnoting...do you have link?

According to Sam Houston, the British were the ones stoking the abolitionist movement, too.

 

[Angel]

Re: Down goes General Lee

Obviously, the compact meant a lot more to Andrew Jackson and Abraham Lincoln than it does to you.

As I said, what president would abide secession on his watch? And don't get me wrong, I'm pleased as punch the Union is intact. I'm just sick and tired of the South-bashing and feel obliged to stick up for it where solid philosophical grounds are available.

 

[Abbazorkzog]

Re: Down goes General Lee

Robert E. Lee has been dead for over a century.

 

[BillRM]

Re: Down goes General Lee

How's that General lee statue doing? Oh yeah it's down, you lost.

The history of the US and the respect due to such men as Lee was the losers and is similar to other times in history in other nations where their past was attacked by tearing down symbols of their history.

Oh well at least we can still be proud that there was no mass hangings or jailing after our civil war.

 

[Moot]

Re: Down goes General Lee

As I said, what president would abide secession on his watch? And don't get me wrong, I'm pleased as punch the Union is intact. I'm just sick and tired of the South-bashing and feel obliged to stick up for it where solid philosophical grounds are available.

No problem...I enjoy debating this stuff, too.

 

[Praxas]

Re: Down goes General Lee

The history of the US and the respect due to such men as Lee was the losers and is similar to other times in history in other nations where their past was attacked by tearing down symbols of their history.

Oh well at least we can still be proud that there was no mass hangings or jailing after our civil war.

Yep i bet everyone in the us supports swastikas on government buildings just because at one ancient time it wasn't used by white supremicists and nazis right?

If you want to honor lee, fine, don't do it on state property.

 

[Tigerace117]

Re: Down goes General Lee

If you were honest about it you would know that 90% of those living in the North as you say 'didn't have a problem with it beforehand'
either. Garrison and his band of abolishinists weren't terribly popular by there northern neighbors as I recall.

The so called "abolitionist riots" were, to be frank, stirred up by criminals only interested in having a chance to loot. I wouldn't put too much stock in what street gangs thought.

 

[akyron]

Re: Down goes General Lee

How's that General lee statue doing? Oh yeah it's down, you lost.

You lost and future generations lost some knowledge of history.

This is why dumb stuff happens over and over.

I doubt I will ever see Louisiana again.

 

[Praxas]

Re: Down goes General Lee

You lost and future generations lost some knowledge of history.

This is why dumb stuff happens over and over.

I doubt I will ever see Louisiana again.

I'm sure Louisiana is in mourning over it :lamo FYI if you guys want a statue to celebrate white supremacy, fund it yourself and keep on your property.

 

[akyron]

Re: Down goes General Lee

I'm sure Louisiana is in mourning over it :lamo FYI if you guys want a statue to celebrate white supremacy, fund it yourself and keep on your property.

I'm not white moron.

I just don't like book burning.

 

[Athanasius68]

Re: Down goes General Lee

I wouldn't go that far. I don't think that's what Beaudreaux meant.

But this whole nonsense of history being erased/forgotten, "THIS IS LIKE THE TALIBAN!" just shows intellectual laziness and obstinate refusal to think in anything other than steel trap, black and white terms.

It would seem taking down the statues is thinking in a steel trap, in "black and white terms"

 

[truthatallcost]

For too long we glorified the Confederacy. Good riddance.



New Orleans removes Gen. Robert E. Lee statue - CNN.com

The US is more racially divided than ever, despite the many attempts by busy body liberals to bury any existing remnants of Civil War history. Huh.

Didn't Stalin remove all statues that weren't to his liking? So much for freedom, eh?