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Donald Trump Jr. Releases Emails.

SouthernDemocrat said:
So he meets with a Russian in the anticipation of getting dirt on Clinton that the Russians obtain through espionage and because he didn't get what he wanted, its just nothing?? It very well could be treason regardless of whether he got what he wanted.

That's like saying you go heroin dealer with the intention of purchasing a lot of it, but since what you got had been cut a lot by the dealer, its nothing..
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Who said that?
 
Jack Fabulous said:
There is a canyon's worth of difference.

First of all, Trump Jr. had no way of knowing what he was getting was obtained illegally.
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If you're saying that he had no idea that what he was doing was a crime, that's irrelevant. What's relevant is that he had knowledge of the elements that make such a meeting a crime.

For all he knew it could have been information on Clinton Foundation dealings in Russia.
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Colluding with a foreign power to harm your election opposition is colluding with a foreign power to harm your election opposition. The specifics are irrelevant when the broad idea is clear and unambiguous.

Second, in your stupid pedophile TV show analogy the pedophile is the one seeking contact. In this case it was Trump Jr. who was contacted.
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You're alluding to a misunderstanding of opportunity versus entrapment. Simply offering the opportunity isn't entrapment. Entrapment is using coercive efforts to force someone into committing a crime, which describes neither the predators on TCAP nor Donald Trump Jr.

Now... as far as the emotional part? You injected this ridiculous line of discussion into the thread for the sole purpose of trolling. You know it and I know it. That isn't emotion, it's just a statement of fact.
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Jack Fabulous said:
"High level" and "sensitive" doesn't mean the same thing as "obtained through espionage". He could not have possibly known ahead of time and as it turns out, there was nothing revealed at this meeting, anyway. This is all I'm saying.
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Would you be excusing the Hillary Clinton administration if the tables were turned on this? Honestly, would you?

The intelligence assessment on Russian and the 2016 election is clear: https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf
 
Cardinal said:
Colluding with a foreign power to harm your election opposition is colluding with a foreign power to harm your election opposition. The specifics are irrelevant when the broad idea is clear and unambiguous.
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Then both candidates are guilty since Clinton's campaign did the same exact thing.
 
holbritter said:
The guy he was emailing with was not a government official or agent.
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According the e-mails, a Russian government official communicated the offer of documents through one of Trump's Russian business associates. The man he was e-mailing with is the pr representative of that business associate and offered to arrange a meeting regarding acquisition of those documents between a Russian government attorney and Donald Trump Jr. An offer eagerly accepted by Trump Jr.
 
Napoleon said:
According the e-mails, a Russian government official communicated the offer of documents through one of Trump's Russian business associates. The man he was e-mailing with is the pr representative of that business associate and offered to arrange a meeting regarding acquisition of those documents between a Russian government attorney and Donald Trump Jr. An offer eagerly accepted by Trump Jr.
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So a friend of a friend of a friend. I don't think that will satisfy the legal definition that I was responding to.
 
holbritter said:
Then both candidates are guilty since Clinton's campaign did the same exact thing.
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Ok. Guilty is guilty. I am a big fan of enforcing the laws of the land. Your argument is sad and lame. Whether some one else is guilty has zero bearing on this story. It is a sad attempt to distract...
 
holbritter said:
So a friend of a friend of a friend. I don't think that will satisfy the legal definition that I was responding to.
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The pr representative of a friend was just communicating the offer and facilitating the meeting. Donald Trump Jr. had full knowledge of the source which is named in the e-mail as a Russian government official and the method of delivery on that offer which was meeting with an agent of the Russian government at his own request. Trump Jr. is officially busted for collusion.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Would you be excusing the Hillary Clinton administration if the tables were turned on this? Honestly, would you?

The intelligence assessment on Russian and the 2016 election is clear: https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf
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Admittedly, I am no fan of Hillary Clinton but I can say for certain that I would be more interested in actual evidence than the partisan narrative of what they want people to believe the evidence points to.

If what was revealed today is the extent of Trump Jr's interaction with this woman then I think this goes nowhere and should go nowhere. If he is lying and there was some exchange of information then that obviously changes everything.

The "meat" of this whole Russian meddling thing is rooted in Podesta's hacked emails. Did Trump's campaign have any involvement? To me that is really the only question that is important because it is the only event that occurred which could have had an influence on the outcome. That question and the question of who leaked the unmasked Flynn transcripts are the only things that interest me at all, to be honest.
 
Cardinal said:
If you're saying that he had no idea that what he was doing was a crime, that's irrelevant. What's relevant is that he had knowledge of the elements that make such a meeting a crime.
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I said, VERY clearly, that he had no way of knowing what the evidence was or how it was obtained. Do you dispute that?



Cardinal said:
Colluding with a foreign power to harm your election opposition is colluding with a foreign power to harm your election opposition. The specifics are irrelevant when the broad idea is clear and unambiguous.
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Sitting down with a Russian lawyer who claims to have damaging information about the opposition is not in and of itself a crime as far as I can tell. If during the course of that meeting information was exchanged which was obtained through espionage and it was actually used and not turned over to the proper authorities then we have a crime. As it turns out, the whole thing was a farce and there was no information to begin with. I honestly don't know where that leaves us but it sure seems like it would be an uphill climb to charge him with an actual crime here. We'll find out soon enough, though.



Cardinal said:
You're alluding to a misunderstanding of opportunity versus entrapment. Simply offering the opportunity isn't entrapment. Entrapment is using coercive efforts to force someone into committing a crime, which describes neither the predators on TCAP nor Donald Trump Jr.
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I think I've pretty well covered the stupid pedophile trolling angle. I'm ready to move on. You?
 
Verax said:
It was merely attempted treason, a nothing Whopper.
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What a load of horse manure.

If DT Jr was giving the Russians the nuke codes, THAT is treason.
Getting dirt on one's opponent from the Russians? Dirty politics, not Treason.

Quit the hyperbole.
 
Roadvirus said:
What a load of horse manure.

If DT Jr was giving the Russians the nuke codes, THAT is treason.
Getting dirt on one's opponent from the Russians? Dirty politics, not Treason.

Quit the hyperbole.
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Colluding with the enemy to subvert American Democracy.
 
Harshaw said:
No, it really is not. The reasons why not have already been stated in the thread.
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It certainly is attempted collusion with a foreign government.

And trump Jr. was delighted and had plans for the info in late summer.

Pretty textbook.

And the claims it never came to anything?

Conspiring is the same as doing in the eyes of the law here.
 
Verax said:
Colluding with the enemy to subvert American Democracy.
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Kinda like the DNC leadership conspiring to discredit Sanders so Queen Hillary get's into the General?
 
Jack Fabulous said:
I said, VERY clearly, that he had no way of knowing what the evidence was or how it was obtained. Do you dispute that?
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I don't know enough to dispute it, but it's not relevant either way. If I want to sell you crack cocaine and you and I agree to meet somewhere to do the trade, it doesn't matter if you know where I got the crack cocaine or how pure it is, only that you agreed to meet me somewhere to buy it. That would be conspiracy to commit a crime on both our parts, even if the trade never happens.

Sitting down with a Russian lawyer who claims to have damaging information about the opposition is not in and of itself a crime as far as I can tell. If during the course of that meeting information was exchanged which was obtained through espionage and it was actually used and not turned over to the proper authorities then we have a crime. As it turns out, the whole thing was a farce and there was no information to begin with. I honestly don't know where that leaves us but it sure seems like it would be an uphill climb to charge him with an actual crime here. We'll find out soon enough, though.
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It is actually a conspiracy to commit a crime.

And if you really do believe that what they did isn't a crime, then every sting ever has resulted in a false arrest since, presumably, the cop did not send the suspect home with the crack cocaine or whatever other thing a detective might have enticed the perp with. You also seem to believe that if two people start discussing a crime, it's ultimately only the person who brings up the discussion that's criminally liable. Your knowledge of what is and isn't illegal is breathtakingly wrong, and I'm genuinely concerned about your ability to stay out of trouble with the law.

Jack Fabulous said:
I think I've pretty well covered the stupid pedophile trolling angle. I'm ready to move on. You?
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You haven't covered the To Catch a Predator analogy at all. Your only response was to get really, really angry that I brought it up, and the one time you calmed down enough to come up with some form of counter-argument, it was immediately shown to be wrong due to your misunderstanding of how entrapment works.
 
What if...? said:
It certainly is attempted collusion with a foreign government.
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It's almost as if you're going to keep repeating yourself no matter what I write.

And trump Jr. was delighted and had plans for the info in late summer.

Pretty textbook.

And the claims it never came to anything?

Conspiring is the same as doing in the eyes of the law here.
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Yeah, you should definitely leave the law to lawyers.
 
Roadvirus said:
Kinda like the DNC leadership conspiring to discredit Sanders so Queen Hillary get's into the General?
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Exactly like that. Just replace the DNC leadership with the Kremlin.

I don't know about you but I prefer my corruption to be made in America, not Russia.
 
apdst said:
Cite the law that was broken.
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First, my point was that Trump is in hot water. He has investigations going on all around him. He may not be guilty of a federal crime, but that does not protect him from impeachment nor the general perception that he is incompetent (after all, he is responsible for hiring all of these bad apples). I am not asserting any crimes against him, at this time, but I will agree that he is an incompetent manager in this role.

Whether or not he committed a crime is hardly the point. The standard by which effective President’s are measured is not “well, he committed no crimes” He can do incredible amounts of damage to the office, to the country, to our security and to our democracy without committing a crime. He can commit impeachable offenses without committing a crime. Yet, he may have committed crime or numerous crime as may members of his family and staff.

I really don’t like stepping beyond my areas of knowledge in posts. I think it would be prudent for all of us to await the experts here. Our lay arguing of the nature of collusion or what constitutes treason is oft ill-informed and based upon emotion rather than insight. Robert Mueller is an outstanding prosecutor with a first rate staff in areas of fraud, defalcation, money laundering and corruption.

Robert Mueller's team has prosecuted high-stakes cases ?** including obstruction of justice - LA Times

It is likely he has been documenting the financial and political relationships between Trump and the Russians via various surrogates, which may lead to a proforma list of potential charges, and then settling in with his own thoughts of who is culpable, who is chargeable and who is prosecutable. I think we can all expect an interesting and historic report.

Right now, it appears laundry list of potential crimes includes, but is not limited to:

Perjury
Filing false reports
Soliciting campaign contributions from a foreigner
Conspiracy to Commit Election Fraud
Obstruction of Justice
Maybe RICO violations

Which, may extend to impeachable offenses and charges of dereliction of duty and emoluments violations. Again, these are some of the possibilities.

But, what is at stake here is not preventing Trump or his associates finding a tailor for a new striped wardrobe ..

prisoner-behind-bar.webp

Its to protect what limited credibility he has as the so-called leader of the free world (a role he is seemingly passing on, but that is another thread). And, beyond that, its to protect the dignity and influence of the Office of the President, its to protect the American Way and to protect our Democracy. There is lot at stake beyond Donald Trump. The office is far greater than he; and the question is whether he is far inferior to be holding the office.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/07/11/donald-trump-jr-s-russia-meeting-may-have-been-legal-but-thats-a-low-bar/?utm_term=.bc5d4e5645e5

Of course, Donald Trump may face Obstruction of Justice and perjury charges in his own right.

Obstruction of justice case against Trump is a slam dunk - Business Insider
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...28ba60fbb98_story.html?utm_term=.b4f920f1ac12

Equally troubling, however, is the non-criminal aspect. We have dereliction of duty in failing to protect American interests and exposing US secrets to foreign agents (by appointing Flynn)... in the end, it may not be about the legality as it is about the propriety. To quote David Frum: "... The special counsel will investigate whether people in the Trump campaign violated any laws when they gleefully leveraged the fruits of Russian espionage to advance their campaign. By contrast, what happened in plain sight—cheering rather than condemning a Russian attack on American democracy—will be treated as a non-issue, because it was not criminal, merely anti-democratic and disloyal...."

All in, it’s a mess. We have a lame duck President only six months into office. The Republican party should be ashamed of itself for ever giving this guy the nomination. I suspect, however, the Republican party will do the right thing in the end, because I do believe Republicans are patriots….. then again, I have been called hopelessly naïve in my idealism.

Then again, he may well be guilty of a federal crime, but we will wait for the experts.
 
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