Does anyone deny that Blacks are discriminated against in America?

[SonOfDaedalus]

That's right, whites believed racism against whites was HIGHER than racism against blacks in America. And this was about 5 or 6 years ago. Other similar studies have confirmed this ridiculous result. This is truly the collective state of delusion that exists in "the white community".

You mean like Trump saying he would be better off he were Black?...



I could only imagine a Black Donald Trump being blocked from entering his own building.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Yes, I do deny that "Blacks" as a group are "discriminated against in America."

That does not mean racism does not exist.

contradiction.

 

[ultmd]

I dont know of anyone that denys some blacks are discriminated against. Same for whites.

:lamo
Classic

Classic white cluelessness.

It's the "same" like a mountain and a mole hill are both dirt.

 

[ecofarm]

You got anything relevant to the case at hand? It looks to me like you just assume without any evidence other than your prejudice that the woman was motivated by racism.

Of course, it's always that. There's no racism. Black people just imagine things and statistics are fake.

:screwy

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

IMO instead of assuming the worst case scenario and then trying to use it for political ends, which I believe is where much of the problem with our current dialogues about social relationships exists, step back and simply look at the situation with an open mind to find out what caused it. Jumping to conclusions is not the answer.

I see, so if you're shopping and a store employee starts following you around, just assume she's trying to help you or she had prior experiences. If a police officer stops you for no reason, just think positively.

It seems like a great strategy if you want to live in denial of reality.

 

[apdst]

That's how you see the world. You refuse to see what you don't want to see. I think most Republicans agree with you. That's why I don't vote for Republicans.

Tell us how often YOU see it.

 

[Captain Adverse]

contradiction.

Racism can exist in individuals. But your comment implies systemic discrimination.

Well, arguably, ALL individuals do tend to discriminate on a personal level.

For example, I discriminate when it comes to women I prefer to date. "Equal opportunity" has no place in my dating life; either the woman meets my range of facial features, body shape, age, personality, etc., or I am not interested.

These days this "offends" many women, who seem to think that just because they exist and are interested in me I an required to reciprocate. But I don't care. Nor do I expect every woman I am interested in to simply accept me either.

Discrimination is part of life. So what?

You ignore that fact, as well as my point that EVERYONE also "discriminates" against other people based on all sorts of things, including race. Black's are no different, as you would/should know if you are Black, and/or have any experience with members of the Black Community.

So what was your point if it was NOT to assert that the video was an example of how Black's face systemic discrimination?

I see, so if you're shopping and a store employee starts following you around, just assume she's trying to help you or she had prior experiences. If a police officer stops you for no reason, just think positively.

It seems like a great strategy if you want to live in denial of reality.

Really?

Well IMO if you honestly think that ONLY Blacks get followed around in stores by store employees, or get stopped by police for "no reason," then I think you might be the one living in denial of reality. :coffeepap:

 

[ludin]

I don't think anyone is claiming that everyone is like this woman, or any of the rest of the racist incidents that have sparked up recently. Just that it's prevalent enough that it happens often.

the fact is that people discriminate against people all the time. people have prejudices that you can't change nor are you going to get rid of.
people are people and they will always be people. It is the price of living in a free society.

 

[Anarchon]

Everyone is discriminated against in some form or fashion. Discrimination is a good thing. It is how we make every choice we have to make in life. People should stop bitching about it. The ones bitching about it are doing so in an attempt to control others, which is far more menacing than whatever initial offense is imagined.

 

[Chillfolks]

Fear based on stereotypes that get reinforced throughout multiple forms of media, is not the same thing as racism IMO.

I doubt this lady challenged this man out of some grand notion of superiority by "race".

I would believe this woman has seen young African American males portrayed disportioned to reality as criminals. This is in news reports, entertainment outlets, and in daily life. This constant reinforced negative sterotype creates fear. And Fear of being a victim is what motivated this woman.

She still gets no pass and acted extremely poorly.

I just think we need to focus on more than just the simple "racist" excuse if we want change

 

[Kal'Stang]

This is true, of course.

But it also dodges the issue, which is that the "discrimination" you're talking about is practices in some places (and against some people) more than others.

I don't subscribe to such ideology. Its divisive. Discrimination is discrimination period. It doesn't affect some more than others. It just affects some differently than others. There is a difference.

When someone says "discrimination affects <insert whatever color here:Group A> more than <insert whatever color here:Group B>" that is lessening the discrimination faced by <insert whatever color here>. Which in itself is a form of negative discrimination. It also gives Group A more of a sense of entitlement over Group B and when they don't get what they feel they are entitled to they become hateful. Which causes them to discriminate. In the end, its nothing more than a vicious cycle that gets worse and worse. This is the reason that I say its divisive and why I do not subscribe to such ideology. We should be condemning discrimination against Group A just as much as we should be condemning discrimination against Group B. This is the biggest reason why Identity Politics is ruining our country. It's pitting one group against another instead of trying to unite them.

 

[ecofarm]

Everyone is discriminated against in some form or fashion. Discrimination is a good thing. It is how we make every choice we have to make in life. People should stop bitching about it. The ones bitching about it are doing so in an attempt to control others, which is far more menacing than whatever initial offense is imagined.

:lamo

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Racism can exist in individuals. But your comment implies systemic discrimination.

You admit racism exists. You deny that Blacks are disadvantaged as a group by racism.

That's illogical.

If one group is a minority with less wealth, how can racism not affect the minority group more?

Are you denying that racism was the cause of slavery? Are you denying that racism was the cause of segregation?

I'll assume you don't deny that. So, you admit that in the past it has severely disadvantaged Blacks.

I guess we are to believe that from 1960 to 2018 these disadvantages have completely disappeared?

I haven't even gone into the vast scientific literature on implicit bias.

 

[PTF]

Are you ready ?

Why make all of this our problem ?

 

[AGENT J]

I don't subscribe to such ideology. Its divisive. Discrimination is discrimination period. It doesn't affect some more than others. It just affects some differently than others. There is a difference.

When someone says "discrimination affects <insert whatever color here:Group A> more than <insert whatever color here:Group B>" that is lessening the discrimination faced by <insert whatever color here>. Which in itself is a form of negative discrimination. It also gives Group A more of a sense of entitlement over Group B and when they don't get what they feel they are entitled to they become hateful. Which causes them to discriminate. In the end, its nothing more than a vicious cycle that gets worse and worse. This is the reason that I say its divisive and why I do not subscribe to such ideology. We should be condemning discrimination against Group A just as much as we should be condemning discrimination against Group B. This is the biggest reason why Identity Politics is ruining our country. It's pitting one group against another instead of trying to unite them.

I agree with all that but i dont think we have to ignore the fact that some discrimination does effect others worse.... you can still do what you are saying and acknowledge the fact that some has more of an impact. of course its all discrimination and it should ALL be condemned the same but we can still acknowledge how one can have a larger effect and still do so.

for example in a county if there are 10 auto garages 8 white owned and 2 black owned and say 8 of them discriminate against any race besides white and one of them discriminates against white . . well its easy to see how this specific discriminate will effect blacks more especially if im a black mechanic in that country vs a white one.

BUT like you said that by NO means should that change how the discrimination is condemned, its all illegal and wrong PERIOD. but one does factually have a larger effect.

IMO what i think should happen more that doesnt is that "condemning" should be made more frequent and universal. Its the nutters that try to do what you are saying...(make it different) that are the problem.

so along with condemning all discrimination we should also condemn the retarded claims like "blacks cant be racist" or "there is no racism in america any more" etc

 

[Captain Adverse]

You admit racism exists. You deny that Blacks are disadvantaged as a group by racism.

That's illogical.

No. Your arguments for "group racism" are illogical.

If one group is a minority with less wealth, how can racism not affect the minority group more?

False analogy. Asians are the smallest minority group in America. As the smallest group they have less wealth than any other. Yet they are also highly successful in achieving good educations, stable incomes, and assimilation.

Are you denying that racism was the cause of slavery?

Yes I am. Slavery involved all races worldwide, and still exists in certain nations. The vast majority of slaves in Africa, as well as those ending up being imported to the New World were made slaves by other Africans. Where was the "racism" in that?

Are you denying that racism was the cause of segregation?

Of course not. But it no longer exists...or were you too young to experience the change first-hand?

I'll assume you don't deny that.

See how foolish it is to "assume" anything? Only one of your listed examples above had merit...back in the old days.

So, you admit that in the past it has severely disadvantaged Blacks.

Those (including myself) who lived some portion of that past, yes.

I guess we are to believe that from 1960 to 2018 these disadvantages have completely disappeared?

IMO? Systemically yes, Black American's never had so much freedom prior to 1967 as they have now. In fact, we have been granted many advantages to make up for that past, but IMO advantages many of us abuse rather than using to make ourselves better.

I haven't even gone into the vast scientific literature on implicit bias.

Thanks for that. It saves me the trouble of disputing it as more likely than not Identity Politics crap promulgated by Progressive-Leftist "social scientists" in and of itself. :coffeepap:

 

[jdog21]

Me either, and I remember standing watch and having to challenge people. However, I usually didn't challenge people who buzzed themselves into the building.

They teach you at work and for yours and your neighbors personal safety, never allow someone to tailgate behind your buzz-ins.

 

[Kal'Stang]

I agree with all that but i dont think we have to ignore the fact that some discrimination does effect others worse.... you can still do what you are saying and acknowledge the fact that some has more of an impact. of course its all discrimination and it should ALL be condemned the same but we can still acknowledge how one can have a larger effect and still do so.

for example in a county if there are 10 auto garages 8 white owned and 2 black owned and say 8 of them discriminate against any race besides white and one of them discriminates against white . . well its easy to see how this specific discriminate will effect blacks more especially if im a black mechanic in that country vs a white one.

BUT like you said that by NO means should that change how the discrimination is condemned, its all illegal and wrong PERIOD. but one does factually have a larger effect.

If you break it down to specific instances then yeah, one can be determined as being worse than another in those specific instances. For instance take your example and reverse it. If its reversed then it would affect whites more than blacks. The discrimination is just as bad either way, just different groups being affected. I have no problem with calling out specific instances as being worse over another. But when talking generalities then they need to be treated equally. Which leads to your next point.

IMO what i think should happen more that doesnt is that "condemning" should be made more frequent and universal. Its the nutters that try to do what you are saying...(make it different) that are the problem.

so along with condemning all discrimination we should also condemn the retarded claims like "blacks cant be racist" or "there is no racism in america any more" etc

I could not agree more if I tried.

 

[AGENT J]

1.) If you break it down to specific instances then yeah, one can be determined as being worse than another in those specific instances. For instance take your example and reverse it. If its reversed then it would affect whites more than blacks. The discrimination is just as bad either way, just different groups being affected. I have no problem with calling out specific instances as being worse over another. But when talking generalities then they need to be treated equally. Which leads to your next point.

2.)I could not agree more if I tried.

1.) correct 100% if it was reversed the more adverse affect would follow the majority vs the minority.
2.) great! lol

I think not condemning the discrimination no matter the race, gender, sexual orientation etc and not calling it out those that try to claim its different or doesnt exist is second biggest issue. The first of course is ignorance of bigotry and the teaching of it.

 

[ultmd]

I don't subscribe to such ideology. Its divisive. Discrimination is discrimination period. It doesn't affect some more than others. It just affects some differently than others. There is a difference.

I see nothing "divisive" about it. It's just a fact. Who is being "divided" by acknowledging what is obvious to most people? You don't rid society of racism by NOT acknowledging it. You do so be acknowledging it, and then confronting it in a constructive manner (when possible).

When someone says "discrimination affects <insert whatever color here:Group A> more than <insert whatever color here:Group B>" that is lessening the discrimination faced by <insert whatever color here>. Which in itself is a form of negative discrimination.

Again, I'm puzzled by this argument. First, with regard to that last sentence....you'll have to explain to me what "negative discrimination" means. Are you saying that "negative discrimination" = racism?

Secondly, with respect to the 1st part (i.e. Group A/B, etc. above)....Why would anyone make such an irrational assumption? This is not a competition. This is real life. You're just proving my earlier remarks about research showing that many whites view the entire issue of Racism as a zero-sum game. Why, in the world, would someone assume that acknowledging a known, objectively provable reality (i.e. in this case, the prevalence of racism face by racial minorities (as a whole) being higher than that faced by whites) is "lessening" the effect of discrimination when it happens to the majority? It really shouldn't (and doesn't) matter how it makes people feel...the FACT is that minorities (African-Americans in particular) experience racism MUCH more frequently than non-minorities in this country. Since when did reality become "divisive"?

It also gives Group A more of a sense of entitlement over Group B and when they don't get what they feel they are entitled to they become hateful. Which causes them to discriminate. In the end, its nothing more than a vicious cycle that gets worse and worse. This is the reason that I say its divisive and why I do not subscribe to such ideology.

OK, so if I understand your argument correctly, you're saying that acknowledging that racism is more prevalent against blacks than whites, you are "giving" blacks as sense of entitlement by which to make demands of whites in society. And that, in turn, makes them feel "entitled" to hate white people. Correct? Is that what you are saying?

We should be condemning discrimination against Group A just as much as we should be condemning discrimination against Group B.

No one would suggest that racism never affects whites, nor that racism against whites is ok, etc.....only that racism against whites is MUCH less prevalent than racism against blacks. Do you honestly not recognize that last part?

This is the biggest reason why Identity Politics is ruining our country. It's pitting one group against another instead of trying to unite them.

"Identity Politics". I find this to be one of the most popular.....and yet most disingenuous....narratives about the issue of race (and racism), from conservatives. To what "identity" does the GOP cater? If we're being honest, "Identity Politics" is just code for "non-white, non-male", as if the Republican Party doesn't play "identity politics" on behalf of white men. The clear and unspoken assumption is that older white men are under attack by basically EVERY other demographic group in the country...which is the ultimate in "victimhood".

"Identity Politics" is really nothing but a slogan created to protect "white identity politics". Your "identity" tends to align with the policy views of one party. Mine, another. The idea that acknowledging apparent racism...and/or even discussing the issue of race/racism..... is "divisive" or playing "identity politics", is just an excuse to avoid dialogue than, thus, perpetuate a status quo that benefits the entitled majority.

 

[ultmd]

1.) correct 100% if it was reversed the more adverse affect would follow the majority vs the minority.
2.) great! lol

I think not condemning the discrimination no matter the race, gender, sexual orientation etc and not calling it out those that try to claim its different or doesnt exist is second biggest issue. The first of course is ignorance of bigotry and the teaching of it.

Seems to me that you (and Kal-Stang) are both missing the point by focusing on an argument that no one has raised (i.e. that racism should be condemned equally). I seriously doubt that many people would disagree with that, which explains why NO ONE else suggested otherwise. I also don't believe that anyone has suggested that "blacks can't be racist", etc.

The point here...which is an objectively proven FACT that is well-studied and documented in social science literature...is that racism against African-Americans (and other racial minorities is MUCH more prevalent than racism against whites. That is simply not arguable.

I'm sorry, but no amount of verbal gymnastics will change the fact that whites are NOT victims of racism to ANY degree approaching that experienced by African-Americans and latinos in this country.

 

[Grokmaster]

One great thing about people having smartphones they can record video with is now we can document the racism in this country. Of course, it's not just America but racism exists all over the world. But if you're not a minority its invisible to you.

But thanks to YouTube and smartphones people who deny that minorities have to deal with racists who sometimes have power over them (police, employers, etc) can see for themselves.

Asian Americans might.

 

[AGENT J]

1.) I'm afraid you (and Kal-Stang) are both missing the point by focusing on an argument that no one has raised (i.e. that racism should be condemned equally).
2.) I seriously doubt that many people would disagree with that, which explains why NO ONE else suggested otherwise.
3.) I also don't believe that anyone has suggested that "blacks can't be racist", etc.
4.) The point here...
5.) which is an objectively proven FACT that is well-studied and documented in social science literature...is that racism against African-Americans (and other racial minorities is MUCH more prevalent than racism against whites. That is simply not arguable.
6.)I'm sorry, but no amount of verbal gymnastics will change the fact that whites are NOT victims of racism to ANY degree approaching that experienced by African-Americans and latinos in this country.

1.) no we are not we were having a conversation we wanted to have on the topic at hand and we did.
2.) where did either of us say that somebody said that here? oh thats right we didnt
3.) in this thread? nope nor did we say anybody did. are there a couple people retarded enough to make that claim here at DP? yes there are and they have while the vast majority of us mocked thier ignorance and stupidity and not having the intelligence to realize that mind sets like that are part of the problem.
4.) YOU dont get to make the point here in OUR conversation but please proceed im sure it will be somethign made up and or falsely assumed that has nothing to do with me
5.) wow did i call that perfectly or what . .yep that got nothign to do with me and yes that is true in america for sure :shrug: where did i say otherwise? (hint, i didnt)
6.) no need to apologize for the mistake of making up a retarded strawman that didnt apply to me or my conversation. mistakes happen, we all make them i know i do.

is there somethign else you have that applies to anything i actually said?

 

[Blue Dog]

Blacks are discriminated against in America.

No argument there...

 

[Grokmaster]

Blacks are discriminated against in America.

No argument there...

By whom and how?

Whites are discriminated against in America. No argument there.