Do you fear becoming a minority?

[Luckyone]

With vastly differing customs, values, and traditions. Would you accept sharia law in an effort to be accepting and tolerant? It’s an issue now in areas of London Muslims consider their own.

The question was about being a minority, it is not about adopting other customs. If I was willing to go to wherever Sharia Law exists, I would have to adopt their customs. Otherwise, I don't. People, whether they are the minority or the majority have to respect and live by the customs of where they are residing, if only because that is what is done there. If I don't like their customs, why go and live there?

 

[Dutch]

Then don't embrace those aspects. That's how assimilation works. You take the things that work, the things that are beautiful, and you incorporate them into your own culture. You reject the things that don't work, the things that are ugly, and maybe that subculture too will eventually reject those things. Muslims in America are far more tolerant of women's liberation than Muslims in predominantly Muslim countries. After a generation or two, most American Muslims completely abandon that aspect of their culture because they witness the beauty of that aspect of American culture and incorporate it into their own. Americans can do the same thing with the huge amount of beautiful things that exist in traditional Islamic culture.

And for those who are hostile to males, I offer them the exact same advice: Integrate. Spend time with the good males and reject the bad ones. Maybe you'll make a few wonderful friends

All cultures have beauty and ugliness. Integration lets us share the beauty between each other and learn to let go of the ugliness in our own respective cultures.



Assimilation isn't conformity or subordination. Everyone should assimilate into everyone else's culture. No matter how large or small, cultures are meant to be shared and will naturally bleed together like paint. The smallest minority subculture can have just as large and positive an impact on the dominant culture as vice versa. This doesn't mean you can't privately reject and pass judgment on the cultural ugliness that you see, but unless there is a victim there should never be any laws passed that are designed to "protect" culture. These are always counter-productive. Laws should first and foremost protect the human rights of individuals without ever discouraging cultural exploration.

The question was about being a minority, it is not about adopting other customs. If I was willing to go to wherever Sharia Law exists, I would have to adopt their customs. Otherwise, I don't. People, whether they are the minority or the majority have to respect and live by the customs of where they are residing, if only because that is what is done there. If I don't like their customs, why go and live there?

Im responding to those on this thread who seem to feel that we can all get along if we adopt aspects of each other’s cultural traits.

I’m not criticizing that view. I’m not even criticizing those who want sharia law. I’m simply asking a hard question about just what white liberals are willing to accept in the form of foreign values, customs, and mores in achieving their vision of America.

 

[Luckyone]

Im responding to those on this thread who seem to feel that we can all get along if we adopt aspects of each other’s cultural traits.

I’m not criticizing that view. I’m not even criticizing those who want sharia law. I’m simply asking a hard question about just what white liberals are willing to accept in the form of foreign values, customs, and mores in achieving their vision of America.

With America it is difficult to say what are the customs here given that we have always been a melting pot of nations. If we were to go by the real definition of being an American we would have to adopt the customs of the Indians that were here before us.

There are no "established" customs in the United States because every one of us are descendants of someone that came here from somewhere else, meaning that we all have some parts of the customs from Germany, Italy, England, etc.........My own father was Italian, my mother was from German parents and I was born and raised in Mexico. I have customs that envelop all those nations.

 

[Dutch]

With America it is difficult to say what are the customs here given that we have always been a melting pot of nations. If we were to go by the real definition of being an American we would have to adopt the customs of the Indians that were here before us.

There are no "established" customs in the United States because every one of us are descendants of someone that came here from somewhere else, meaning that we all have some parts of the customs from Germany, Italy, England, etc.........My own father was Italian, my mother was from German parents and I was born and raised in Mexico. I have customs that envelop all those nations.

European cultures not that dissimilar. Born and raised in mexico. That’s interesting. Are you Morman?

 

[LouC]

Nobody cares what you think.

LOL

I like you! You post funny stuff!

 

[AlbqOwl]

Are you seriously trying to claim that wealthy conservatives live in diverse neighborhoods? You can't possibly be that dishonest or dense can you?

Yes. I think a great number of wealthy black people, Hispanics, and Asians all live in neighborhoods in which they are not the only conservatives. So it only stands to reason that white conservatives are also living in diverse neighborhoods.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

All those isolating themselves in all or mostly white gated communities that I know of are liberal/progressive elites. You know, those people with walls and upscale security systems and sometimes armed body guards to keep themselves and theirs safe but who say the rest of us are immoral for wanting guns for self defense or a border wall to help enforce our laws.

I largely grew up in a society that was more Hispanic than 'anglo' and my own family is a pretty broad mix of European heritage including Spanish and Italian mixed in with a bit of native American and Mexican heritage. I would say fear of being a minority would be seen as pretty silly by all of us.

My middle class neighborhood is a nice mixture of Christian/Jew/Muslim/Atheist, gay/straight, multi-racial and multi ethnic and I wouldn't want it any other way. And yes, I have met most of my neighbors within a one or two block radius through our volunteer homeowners association and an occasional block party now and then.

I wonder when the TDS group and haters will get tired of assuming and/or accusing everybody right of center of being motivated by racism?

You sound like someone who consumes a great deal of right-wing agit-prop. I grew up with Jews in the house on one side and Catholics on the other.

Maybe you should look up the neighborhoods Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin and Laura Ingram live in. As an adult, where I've lived was always more of a function of where I work than "culture". I didn't go "race checking" before we bought this house.:lol:

 

[AlbqOwl]

You sound like someone who consumes a great deal of right-wing agit-prop. I grew up with Jews in the house on one side and Catholics on the other.

Maybe you should look up the neighborhoods Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin and Laura Ingram live in. As an adult, where I've lived was always more of a function of where I work than "culture". I didn't go "race checking" before we bought this house.:lol:

I'm pretty sure Carlson, Hannity, Levin, Ingraham (you could at least spell the names right) and all other wealthy people probably live in neighborhoods more diverse than you would admit because wealthy black people, Hispanics, and Asians buy homes in those same kinds of neighborhoods. Wealthy minorities are no more likely to live in neighborhoods with people all of one race than are white people which automatically translates into wealthy neighborhoods being as racially diverse as middle class neighborhoods. It is mostly the poor that are the most racially segregated and even that is slowly changing.

 

[SoCal]

Christians are a minority and have been for thousands of years. Christians do not happily associate with the ungodly in business, in pleasure, in politics or just about anywhere else, and they are criticized for that. No matter. The world hated Jesus and they will still hate Christians. That is a fact of life.

Real Christians don't follow, support or vote for an ungodly, lying, immoral, racist, adulterer...

 

[SoCal]

I'm uncomfortable enough about feminism becoming dominant that I plan to leave the USA when it's financially workable. Brazil, Colombia and Bolivia are my top candidates in that order.

I'm sure you would be much happier in a less evolved society, you know, like the old days when man were man and the sheep knew it.

Take some of your friends with you please...

 

[SoCal]

I only fear being the minority when governed by a democracy. I hate the thought of my rights being voted away by the majority. Hopefully I will die long before it happens.


As far as a minority the rich and powerful are the only real minority. I see no reason for them to fear the path towards becoming a 3rd world country. It just means more servants for them to have at a cheaper price. Their only real fear is a strong middle class which they keep destroying with cheap labor from other countries. So as a part of the dwindling middle class I really have no fear as I will live out my life just fine. I do feel sorry for the future generations as we continue to move towards a country of the very rich and the very poor. I would say you will reap what you sow but it is our children who will reap what we are sowing.

Well our country was founded on the idea that the people govern themselves. If you prefer someone else making decisions for you, what country would that be, Iraq, China or possibly Russia?

 

[lwf]

A nice sentiment my seattle friend but that isn't what's happening. We're simply becoming a nation of competing and sometimes hostile tribes.

This from an article in the Washington Post about sharia courts in America.

Sharia in America



This from minneapolis.

I disagree. You are pointing out first generation culture clash and prematurely determining that cultures don't mix. But the evidence proves otherwise. Those areas you refer to where tribes are competing are first generation areas. Culture clash is to be expected in the first generation. It's the storm before the calm. In areas where assimilated immigrants are second and third generation you don't get this. If you can put up with the initial few years of culture clash, you end up with a strengthened community and a far more peaceful and productive culture. The animosity that exists in the areas of tribal competition is squarely on the shoulders of the isolationists like you, not on those seeking assimilation. America is rapidly improving from a cultural standpoint, and the only thing that can stop that is self-isolation.

Your fears of "Sharia Law" in America are overblown. You should research Ordnung and how its laws mesh with U.S. Law. The average interpretation of Ordnung law is far more extreme than common Islamic law, and the Amish (another self-isolated community that is rapidly losing its younger generations to assimilation) seem to otherwise get along just fine with Americans. The American legal system is never going to adopt any aspect of extremist Sharia Law that violates American laws of individual freedom and equality, and American Muslims will eventually get used to this. American Muslim women will always have the freedom if they so choose to wear hijabs and defer to their husbands, and eventually Americans will get used to this. And the more time these women spend in America, the fewer Muslim women will choose a position of subordination.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

I'm pretty sure Carlson, Hannity, Levin, Ingraham (you could at least spell the names right) and all other wealthy people probably live in neighborhoods more diverse than you would admit because wealthy black people, Hispanics, and Asians buy homes in those same kinds of neighborhoods. Wealthy minorities are no more likely to live in neighborhoods with people all of one race than are white people which automatically translates into wealthy neighborhoods being as racially diverse as middle class neighborhoods. It is mostly the poor that are the most racially segregated and even that is slowly changing.

Not at all. I used to live in the DC metro and I know the area well. It's very diverse. So is NYC. Everyone I mentioned lives in one of those areas in a very upscale neighborhood. Segregation broke down in the 60's and 70's, at least for the middle and upper classes. The poor are still segregated because they lack mobility.

This city is very right wing and very white, but the segregation is economic more than racial or cultural. (I'm referring to the whole area - I don't live in 'the city')

I haven't seen this 'rich white liberals deliberately isolating themselves' thing anywhere. I know where Carlson lived (he recently moved). That area has all races and creeds, but many have big gates, big estates, alarm systems, etc. This area where I live now is the same. It's the money, not the ideology, race or ethnicity. Carlson made the statement, "This area hasn't changed since the 50's" about his previous house. I'm not sure what he was talking about.

 

[Luckyone]

European cultures not that dissimilar. Born and raised in mexico. That’s interesting. Are you Morman?

No, Catholic.

 

[noonereal]

"Do you fear becoming a minority?

Do they??????

They are ready to start a civil war over it.

 

[noonereal]

No, Catholic.

That is the type of voodoo I was brought up in also.

 

[lwf]

Im responding to those on this thread who seem to feel that we can all get along if we adopt aspects of each other’s cultural traits.

I’m not criticizing that view. I’m not even criticizing those who want sharia law. I’m simply asking a hard question about just what white liberals are willing to accept in the form of foreign values, customs, and mores in achieving their vision of America.

It's not about changing our values or customs, its about sharing them and learning from the values and customs of others. I would never walk into a different culture with the expectation that I am going to change my behavior or who I am or what I believe. I would be myself and I would behave the way I was brought up to behave. And I would expect them to do the same according to their own upbringing. After a few incidents of culture clash, I would learn which of my behaviors are offensive to others and I would reflect on why this is. If I determine that the other culture is ignorantly taking unnecessary offense to my behavior due to outdated ideas, I would not abandon that behavior, though I would temper it in their company to be polite. But what if I reflect on my behavior that is deemed offensive in another culture and I realize that my own culture is the one that was ignorant in allowing such behavior? Now I have learned something valuable and I am able to improve myself.

A very simple example: I was invited over to a Japanese friend's home for dinner. I walked into his house and headed for the kitchen where I could see him cooking. His family looked at me in horror and offered me house slippers. I then realized that Asian cultures remove their shoes before entering their homes. Upon reflection it made perfect sense, and my wife and I now remove our shoes before entering our own home. We intentionally adopted their custom and now our home is cleaner and our lives are better having experienced this culture clash. We weren't forced to do this. We realized that maybe the other culture was on to something.

Similarly, my Japanese friend had no idea that commenting on someone's weight was considered impolite in my culture. After an incident of culture clash, he reflected on it and realized that making an unsolicited comment on another's appearance could make them feel embarrassed and objectified and he stopped doing so in his own culture as well, even admonishing others of his culture to do the same. He wasn't forced to do this. He realized that this small aspect of his culture could probably be abandoned to everyone's benefit.

When everyone does this, culture naturally improves.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Well our country was founded on the idea that the people govern themselves. If you prefer someone else making decisions for you, what country would that be, Iraq, China or possibly Russia?

No a representative government like the one our forefathers intended. A government that gave each state an equal vote in the senate to keep the majority from voting away the rights of the minority. A constitution that is supposed to protect the rights of the minority and the individual from mob rule where the majority can vote away the rights of the minority.

 

[Luckyone]

That is the type of voodoo I was brought up in also.

Yeah, but I am not a practicing Catholic. I am a believer in Jesus but I am not much of a believer in the guidelines given by the Church. Most of those were determined by men and not by God or Jesus.

 

[noonereal]

It's not about changing our values or customs, its about sharing them and learning from the values and customs of others. I would never walk into a different culture with the expectation that I am going to change my behavior or who I am or what I believe. I would be myself and I would behave the way I was brought up to behave. And I would expect them to do the same according to their own upbringing. After a few incidents of culture clash, I would learn which of my behaviors are offensive to others and I would reflect on why this is. If I determine that the other culture is ignorantly taking unnecessary offense to my behavior due to outdated ideas, I would not abandon that behavior, though I would temper it in their company to be polite. But what if I reflect on my behavior that is deemed offensive in another culture and I realize that my own culture is the one that was ignorant in allowing such behavior? Now I have learned something valuable and I am able to improve myself.

A very simple example: I was invited over to a Japanese friend's home for dinner. I walked into his house and headed for the kitchen where I could see him cooking. His family looked at me in horror and offered me house slippers. I then realized that Asian cultures remove their shoes before entering their homes. Upon reflection it made perfect sense, and my wife and I now remove our shoes before entering our own home. We intentionally adopted their custom and now our home is cleaner and our lives are better having experienced this culture clash. We weren't forced to do this. We realized that maybe the other culture was on to something.

Similarly, my Japanese friend had no idea that commenting on someone's weight was considered impolite in my culture. After an incident of culture clash, he reflected on it and realized that making an unsolicited comment on another's appearance could make them feel embarrassed and objectified and he stopped doing so in his own culture as well, even admonishing others of his culture to do the same. He wasn't forced to do this. He realized that this small aspect of his culture could probably be abandoned to everyone's benefit.

When everyone does this, culture naturally improves.

Try and get a Trumpet to respect others. Never ****in happen.

 

[SoCal]

...I wonder when the TDS group and haters will get tired of assuming and/or accusing everybody right of center of being motivated by racism?

It sound like you grew up in a great neighborhood. But ones like that are pretty rare and most likely located on the coasts, in our large cities. Places that are less tolerant of racism than in our smaller, mostly white cites in the Midwest.

It seems you didn't read the articles I posted links for. The right of center people referred to in the articles, including the ones I quoted, show us they are racist. Kept to themselves, I don't care how racist someone is. It's when they start putting their racism into practice, like white flight for example, we can stop assuming...

 

[ecofarm]

I’m not criticizing that view. I’m not even criticizing those who want sharia law.

In the Western and most of the developing world, "Sharia Law" is not what idiots pretend it to be. It's voluntary arbitration of limited jurisdiction and can be appealed by either party to the magistrate.

You do know that millions of disputes are settled by arbitration every day in this country, right? You understand that arbitration is a tool employed by all sectors and subcultures in society, right?

But for some -mysterious- reason, when it comes to Muslims that arbitration is suddenly evil and coming to get us. You know what that's called? Islamophobia.

So how about you get the slightest clue what you're idiotically babbling about before making yourself look even more uninformed and hateful.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Not at all. I used to live in the DC metro and I know the area well. It's very diverse. So is NYC. Everyone I mentioned lives in one of those areas in a very upscale neighborhood. Segregation broke down in the 60's and 70's, at least for the middle and upper classes. The poor are still segregated because they lack mobility.

This city is very right wing and very white, but the segregation is economic more than racial or cultural. (I'm referring to the whole area - I don't live in 'the city')

I haven't seen this 'rich white liberals deliberately isolating themselves' thing anywhere. I know where Carlson lived (he recently moved). That area has all races and creeds, but many have big gates, big estates, alarm systems, etc. This area where I live now is the same. It's the money, not the ideology, race or ethnicity. Carlson made the statement, "This area hasn't changed since the 50's" about his previous house. I'm not sure what he was talking about.

The problem therefore is not racism which somehow is always inferred in these discussion. The point is that conservatives acknowledge that their big gates, alarm systems, sometimes armed body guards etc. are prudent to keep out people they do not want or trust to invade them. And a barrier on the southern border would serve the same purpose for the most vulnerable people in this country. Most conservatives are not claiming such a border barrier to be immoral and in fact would be just as prudent for the same reasons they themselves have walls, gates, alarm systems, sometimes armed body guards.

The hypocrisy of those on the left who also have walls, gates, locks on their doors, alarm systems, and sometimes body guards is that they say the most vulnerable among us are racist and 'fear brown people' and are immoral for wanting that barrier on the southern border.

 

[ecofarm]

The problem therefore is not racism which somehow is always inferred in these discussion. The point is that conservatives acknowledge that their big gates, alarm systems, sometimes armed body guards etc. are prudent to keep out people they do not want or trust to invade them. And a barrier on the southern border would serve the same purpose for the most vulnerable people in this country. Most conservatives are not claiming such a border barrier to be immoral and in fact would be just as prudent for the same reasons they themselves have walls, gates, alarm systems, sometimes armed body guards.

The hypocrisy of those on the left who also have walls, gates, locks on their doors, alarm systems, and sometimes body guards is that they say the most vulnerable among us are racist and 'fear brown people' and are immoral for wanting that barrier on the southern border.

They want access to public space, not your house. Your rhetoric is hateful.

 

[Mustachio]

The left doesn't believe in the melting pot. If they did, they wouldn't be so heavily invested in identity politics. To them, your race, ethnicity and gender are your most salient characteristics. What you know or can contribute comes in second.

This is another talking point I hear on conservative radio all the time. Are you a Dennis Prager listener? About a week ago he did a long riff on how liberals don't know what "melting pot" means. It's amazing how closely posts on this message board match up with what I hear in just a half hour to an hour of conservative news each day on my way to and from work. It's all the same talking points.

There are two conflicting messages, though:
1. Liberals are obsessed with identity politics and think you are defined by your status as a gay, black, female, transgender individual.
2. Liberals want to force America to accept and cater to gay, black, female, trans individuals. Example: the absurd bathroom debate about what gender bathroom trans people should be using. Another great example was the time we were told liberals were forcing neighborhoods to be more diverse.

So if we are to assume that's true, why would liberals want to force people to integrate if they don't believe in a melting pot? Isn't building a wall along the border and radically shifting immigration policies to accept people from white countries and far fewer from Mexico/South and Central American/Middle Eastern countries doing the opposite of creating a melting pot? In other words, do you think you might have it backwards?