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Do pro gun people have some responsibility to fix the mass shooting problem?

Do pro gun people have some responsibility to fix the mass shooting problem?

  • Need more info

    Votes: 6 6.8%
  • Yes, pro gun people should help fix the problem

    Votes: 26 29.5%
  • No, they're not responsible in the slightest

    Votes: 56 63.6%

  • Total voters
    88
  • Poll closed .
Hey, I didn't write the bill. Don't complain to me about what the House of Representatives calls their bills. If you have a quarrel with "This Act may be cited as the “Gun Show Loophole Closing Act of 2019” take it up the House; call them idiots.

I guess you cannot figure out that when I noted there is no loophole, that you citing the puffery that a POS congress turd comes up with, is really worthless

Do you believe there is a loophole, and if so-why
 
And yet he wanted to mimic fully auto weapons but would not bother to fill out the paperwork.

Who knows why he didn't get a class 3 license and spend who knows how much money on an actual machine gun. Money wasn't an issue, he didn't have a criminal record and time wasn't an issue either.

He would feel the same way about licensing and registration

Hitler supported registration and licensing too.I guess that makes you a nazi.
 
Who knows why he didn't get a class 3 license and spend who knows how much money on an actual machine gun. Money wasn't an issue, he didn't have a criminal record and time wasn't an issue either.



Hitler supported registration and licensing too.I guess that makes you a nazi.

East Germany built a wall on their border.


I guess that makes you a commie. Lol
 
Which is a hollow sentiment to make. Because one can just as easily equate that to telling all the other countries that suffer from gun violence, to simply go **** themselves.

We are nowhere near in as bad a way, as people are trying to make it.

You would need to define what you mean by more gun control, and then see if that meshes with the sensibilities of other Americans first, at the very least.

It is not hollow when the best we can do is to beat places like Yemen when we compare gun violence.


It's just sad
 
You're welcome. Isn't that what debates are supposed to be about? I'm new here so I don't know the culture.


You would think that's what debates are for, unfortunately, a lot of posters think they are into brilliant new ideas when they add an adjective to 'asshole' or 'turd'.
 
You would think that's what debates are for, unfortunately, a lot of posters think they are into brilliant new ideas when they add an adjective to 'asshole' or 'turd'.

Remember the days when politicians conducted themselves with decorum, behaved like statesmen, and said things that inspired?

YouTube (Kennedy - Nixon Debate)
 
You're welcome. Isn't that what debates are supposed to be about? I'm new here so I don't know the culture.

1. I think concealed carry reciprocity is a good thing.
You bring up some points I hadn't thought about. States that have voted not to reciprocate would have to be considered. I'm guessing it could be worked out if everybody focused on the problem and not at on their personal agenda.

2. It would be great if we could register our guns where they couldn't be sold without the rightful owner being the seller like we do with cars and boats.
Great idea, just don't use the word register. It makes some posters foam at the mouth.
3. The terror watch list is no different than the police in your area tailing you because they think you might have done something.
I don't know much about the terror watch list or the no fly list. If it's done carefully it might be useful. I suspect it may be hastily thrown together and includes people that are not a danger and leaves out some that are.

4. Stand your ground laws put the law on the side of the lawful.
I want more concrete evidence of how that law is being used, who, when and where it's being used and whether it's effective or Unfortunately, only the cases where it is misused make the news. If it is working like it's supposed to it's a good thing but we need more evidence.

5. When I was on my high school rifle team we could carry guns on the bus and put them in our lockers.
Growing up in upstate NY (not too far from the PA border) kids used to bring rifles to school during deer season, stash them in their lockers then go home on the bus with a friend that lived on a farm. Often there would be a group that hunted together after school.

What changed?
 
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Why would I be responsible for another person's actions?

I don't think that's what the poll states. The question was whether or not pro gun people should help fix the problem. That has nothing at all to do with your responsibility for the actions of others. It has to do with responsible gun owners being responsible enough to want to fix the problem of weapons of mass destruction getting into the hands of people that should never get their hands on a gun. Most responsible gun owners would agree to that.
 
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6.. We're losing faith in each other. There are lots of stories of a regular Joe using a gun to save co-workers.
I think what we have lost are the neighborhood and community organizations and activities that used to bring us together no matter what political or religious views we held. In the process we've lost the tolerance, understanding and kindness getting together taught us.

7. A buddy of mine in college bartended in a biker bar. I asked him how that was. He said it was great. No drama. "Everyone's packing."
Last week at a big group of Vietnam veterans biked into the parking lot of the museum where I was volunteering. They set up a six panel Oregon's Vietnam Veterans Memorial. Nice group.Very pleasant and efficient. The museum manager went out to show the group where to set up. As she passed my desk she said "Holy, ****, they're all packing". LOL. She's never been around guns.

8. I really didn't know about gun tracing or dealer licensing. Interesting.
It's one of the areas where a lot more could be done to get information to dealers.

9. As for funding, the U of Pitt just did a study finding that only 18% of crimes were committed by gun owners. Don't know who funded it. But, I can understand why the NRA might feel uneasy about government.

The CDCis charged with doing epidemiological studies on the diseases, accidents, shootings, poisonings, crime, addictions, pollutions even weather that effect the lives and health of Americans. We need accurate information in order to make rational policy. The CDC have been neutral in doing the studies and very even handed in the recommendations that come from those studies. The CDC keeps track of Americans health. If we don't have accurate information on the things that effect the health we can't make intelligent policies. If the NRA surpasses information about firearms and the public then Congress can't make rational policy. How is bad policy good for gun owners or the NRA. It's not to the NRA's advantage to suppress studies
 
We have a problem with mass shootings, that much we all can agree on.

We can mitigate the problem though legislation. Treat guns just like you treat cars, you need a license to operate a gun and the gun is registered.

Nobody takes you guns away, you just have to do some paperwork every now and then.
Do it. See how long that lasts before it's struck down for its unconstitutionality. Driving is a privilege. Gun ownership is a constitutional right.

Do pro gun people have some responsibility to fix the mass shooting problem?

No, just as pro speech people don't have responsibility to 'fix' the 'hate speech problem'.
 
We have a problem with mass shootings, that much we all can agree on.

We can mitigate the problem though legislation. Treat guns just like you treat cars, you need a license to operate a gun and the gun is registered.

Nobody takes you guns away, you just have to do some paperwork every now and then.

Do pro gun people have some responsibility to fix the mass shooting problem?

That's a damn lie...lol
 
Best way to stop mass shootings is to make it really cool to take out one difficult to shoot high-value world leader rather than a bunch of teens at the mall.

In theory, you would assume something like that would indeed bring lawmakers together in a partisan way to pass some logical and much needed gun legislation. But historically that's has been proven not to make a difference and in one instance it even exacerbated the problem of guns.

In 2011, Gabby Giffords, a US Congresswoman from Arizona was shot in the head at close range outside of a Safeway supermarket. Thank God she survived but she had an excruciatingly long recovery and suffers permanent facial and right sided paralysis. She's a staunch advocate for gun control of course, but what new legislation was passed by Congress after her assassination attempt? None.

After the nation’s worst mass shootings, in Newtown, Conn.; Aurora, Colo.; Orlando, Fla.; and Columbine High School in Colorado, gun control advocates rose to demand more rigorous laws: stricter background checks, limits on magazine capacities, bans on assault weapons and tougher controls on gun shows and online firearms markets — almost always to no avail.

After the 2017 shooting of Steve Scalise at the annual Congressional baseball game, there were hopes that Republicans would cross the aisle and together with their Democratic counterparts, would enact some meaningful gun legislation. They didn't. Not only were no new laws passed, conservative lawmakers, some of whom were nearly the victims of gun violence, pressed to loosen gun controls. Three bills introduced in the Republican-held House would allow lawmakers to almost always carry a concealed weapon. A fourth would allow concealed carry permits obtained in other states to be recognized in the District of Columbia. Still another would eliminate federal controls on silencers.

Does any of that, even a tiny bit, make real sense as far as controlling gun violence, massacre of kids in school or shoppers in Walmart?
 
You bring up some points I hadn't thought about. States that have voted not to reciprocate would have to be considered. I'm guessing it could be worked out if everybody focused on the problem and not at on their personal agenda.


Great idea, just don't use the word register. It makes some posters foam at the mouth.
I don't know much about the terror watch list or the no fly list. If it's done carefully it might be useful. I suspect it may be hastily thrown together and includes people that are not a danger and leaves out some that are.


I want more concrete evidence of how that law is being used, who, when and where it's being used and whether it's effective or Unfortunately, only the cases where it is misused make the news. If it is working like it's supposed to it's a good thing but we need more evidence.


Growing up in upstate NY (not too far from the PA border) kids used to bring rifles to school during deer season, stash them in their lockers then go home on the bus with a friend that lived on a farm. Often there would be a group that hunted together after school.

What changed?

I spent a lot of time in Upstate NY. My friend, Bob, ran a dive shop in Vestal. My girlfriend at the time lived in Windsor. She introduced me to speedies. I used to get my lacrosse sticks customized at the Onondaga arena. I lived in Chaumont and Alexandria Bay and taught scuba for dive shops in Clayton, Watertown, Alex Bay, and Sandy Creek. Did lots of diving in Skaneateles, Lake Ontario, and the St. Lawrence. My current girlfriend for the past 7 years is a pro figure skating coach, so we'd go hiking around Lake Placid. I tried climbing in New Paltz. New York is underrated for its beauty, charm, and history. I also worked out of an office at 67 Wall St for a science diving unit funded by a capital investment company and spent time in the Hamptons and Montauk. Love New York.

I don't know what changed. My friend Bob was paying for his son to attend SUNY. His son dropped out to be a break dancer. Are kids just malfunctioning? I remember starting college in '86. We acted and dressed like adults. My college girlfriend was pre-law. She dressed like a lawyer. After class, she'd change into a lumberjack shirt, let her hair down, drink a tall screwdriver and smoke Marlboro's. I taught there in the late 90's. Kids went to class in pajamas. We had to eject kids for walking on desks, being disruptive, and temper tantrums. One student vandalized a hallway acting out because a boy she liked asked another girl out. Events like this became the norm. We need to figure out what changed or gun control will be just a bandaid on a severed artery.
 
continued:



I think what we have lost are the neighborhood and community organizations and activities that used to bring us together no matter what political or religious views we held. In the process we've lost the tolerance, understanding and kindness getting together taught us.

Last week at a big group of Vietnam veterans biked into the parking lot of the museum where I was volunteering. They set up a six panel Oregon's Vietnam Veterans Memorial. Nice group.Very pleasant and efficient. The museum manager went out to show the group where to set up. As she passed my desk she said "Holy, ****, they're all packing". LOL. She's never been around guns.


It's one of the areas where a lot more could be done to get information to dealers.



The CDCis charged with doing epidemiological studies on the diseases, accidents, shootings, poisonings, crime, addictions, pollutions even weather that effect the lives and health of Americans. We need accurate information in order to make rational policy. The CDC have been neutral in doing the studies and very even handed in the recommendations that come from those studies. The CDC keeps track of Americans health. If we don't have accurate information on the things that effect the health we can't make intelligent policies. If the NRA surpasses information about firearms and the public then Congress can't make rational policy. How is bad policy good for gun owners or the NRA. It's not to the NRA's advantage to suppress studies


Why we can't trust the CDC with gun research

One of the effort’s lead researchers was a prominent attendee at a conference called the Handgun Epidemic Lowering Plan (HELP) Network, which was “intended to form a public health model to work toward changing society’s attitudes towards guns so that it becomes socially unacceptable for private citizens to have guns.”

The problem with these conclusions is that they came before the data, which was manipulated to support their agenda. The spin was so egregious that Congress acted and forbade the use of taxpayer funds for such biased, agenda-driven research. Included in the 1996 Omnibus bill was a rider that read, “Provided further, that none of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”


Why Congress Cut The CDC’s Gun Research Budget

n the late ’80s and early ’90s, the CDC was openly biased in opposing gun rights. CDC official and research head Patrick O’Carroll stated in a 1989 issue of The Journal of the American Medical Association, “We’re going to systematically build a case that owning firearms causes deaths.” This sounds more like activist rhetoric than it does scientific research, as O’Carroll effectively set out with the goal of confirmation bias, saying “We will prove it,” and not the scientific objectiveness of asking “Does it?”
 
Interesting premise, pro gun people are responsible for the shooting problem. I guess I would have to ask are people of race responsible for racists? Are people who have sex responsible for rapists? Are car enthusiasts responsible for drunk drivers? Are people who eat responsible for obesity and starvation?

Pretty stupid premise when you look at it in context.
 
In theory, you would assume something like that would indeed bring lawmakers together in a partisan way to pass some logical and much needed gun legislation. But historically that's has been proven not to make a difference and in one instance it even exacerbated the problem of guns.

In 2011, Gabby Giffords, a US Congresswoman from Arizona was shot in the head at close range outside of a Safeway supermarket. Thank God she survived but she had an excruciatingly long recovery and suffers permanent facial and right sided paralysis. She's a staunch advocate for gun control of course, but what new legislation was passed by Congress after her assassination attempt? None.

After the nation’s worst mass shootings, in Newtown, Conn.; Aurora, Colo.; Orlando, Fla.; and Columbine High School in Colorado, gun control advocates rose to demand more rigorous laws: stricter background checks, limits on magazine capacities, bans on assault weapons and tougher controls on gun shows and online firearms markets — almost always to no avail.

After the 2017 shooting of Steve Scalise at the annual Congressional baseball game, there were hopes that Republicans would cross the aisle and together with their Democratic counterparts, would enact some meaningful gun legislation. They didn't. Not only were no new laws passed, conservative lawmakers, some of whom were nearly the victims of gun violence, pressed to loosen gun controls. Three bills introduced in the Republican-held House would allow lawmakers to almost always carry a concealed weapon. A fourth would allow concealed carry permits obtained in other states to be recognized in the District of Columbia. Still another would eliminate federal controls on silencers.

Does any of that, even a tiny bit, make real sense as far as controlling gun violence, massacre of kids in school or shoppers in Walmart?


"Meaningful gun legislation" is in the eye of the beholder. I wasn't talking about senators. Most people don't know what states senators represent or who many senators are. I meant if you want to have your legacy be about killing try going after a world leader like Putin. Personally, I like Putin. He's like a mob boss who knows you know what he is and doesn't care.
 
"Meaningful gun legislation" is in the eye of the beholder. I wasn't talking about senators. Most people don't know what states senators represent or who many senators are. I meant if you want to have your legacy be about killing try going after a world leader like Putin. Personally, I like Putin. He's like a mob boss who knows you know what he is and doesn't care.

Yeah, very much like the mob boss, the new 'teflon Don', 2019 verson.
 
Yeah, very much like the mob boss, the new 'teflon Don', 2019 verson.

I never could figure out that those who claim Trump is a dictator, a mobster, a fascist, or a Hitler, are the same ones who don't want the citizens to own firearms.
 
I never could figure out that those who claim Trump is a dictator, a mobster, a fascist, or a Hitler, are the same ones who don't want the citizens to own firearms.

Who said that someone doesn't want citizens to own firearms. That's sort of abbreviating the real issue, isn't it? Nobody, and I mean NO BODY has ever said a single word about not wanting citizens to own firearms. Hell, don't you think WE OWN GUNS TOO? Christ you people are so weak-minded and malleable that it's a miracle you can function day to day.
 
Who said that someone doesn't want citizens to own firearms. That's sort of abbreviating the real issue, isn't it? Nobody, and I mean NO BODY has ever said a single word about not wanting citizens to own firearms. Hell, don't you think WE OWN GUNS TOO? Christ you people are so weak-minded and malleable that it's a miracle you can function day to day.

Yeah right, nobody said that, just like nobody wants to take any guns away from anyone.
 
Who said that someone doesn't want citizens to own firearms. That's sort of abbreviating the real issue, isn't it? Nobody, and I mean NO BODY has ever said a single word about not wanting citizens to own firearms. Hell, don't you think WE OWN GUNS TOO? Christ you people are so weak-minded and malleable that it's a miracle you can function day to day.

What a strange response. Don't you recall this thread and your own answer to the poll question let alone the others who agreed with you?

https://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/poll-16594-do-we-do-mass-shootings-us.html

Screenshot (3).webp

Now you say "Nobody, and I mean NO BODY has ever said a single word about not wanting citizens to own firearms"? Are you two different people or something?
 
After the nation’s worst mass shootings, in Newtown, Conn... gun control advocates rose to demand more rigorous laws: stricter background checks, limits on magazine capacities, bans on assault weapons and tougher controls on gun shows and online firearms markets — almost always to no avail.

That's funny, because after Sandy Hook, and after the Dem proposal for background checks failed, Dems refused to vote on the alternate background check proposal.

And after their useless assault weapons ban failed to get more than 40 votes in a Democrat-controlled Senate, they refused to vote on a magazine bill.

It's almost like they want to lose, more than they want to win. Like they care more about creating wedge issues for the next election cycle to help them get reelected, than they care about saving lives.

And that didn't work out so well for them, did it?
 
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What a strange response. Don't you recall this thread and your own answer to the poll question let alone the others who agreed with you?

https://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/poll-16594-do-we-do-mass-shootings-us.html

View attachment 67263621

Now you say "Nobody, and I mean NO BODY has ever said a single word about not wanting citizens to own firearms"? Are you two different people or something?

But, but,.....but.....um.....TRUMP IS A LIAR!!!!


To be fair, technically he didn't "say" those words. He just clicked on a poll.
 
One of the effort’s lead researchers was a prominent attendee at a conference called the Handgun Epidemic Lowering Plan (HELP) Network, which was “intended to form a public health model to work toward changing society’s attitudes towards guns so that it becomes socially unacceptable for private citizens to have guns.”

The problem with these conclusions is that they came before the data, which was manipulated to support their agenda. The spin was so egregious that Congress acted and forbade the use of taxpayer funds for such biased, agenda-driven research. Included in the 1996 Omnibus bill was a rider that read, “Provided further, that none of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”...

Hey, cool opinion piece by "...Chris Cox is the executive director of the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action..."

Not exactly a compelling unbiased view of why the CDC should not have it in their domain. Instead, a plethora of unsubstantiated rhetoric, without any specific references to any actual study, that says very little other than 'we are the NRA and will allow nothing that stands in the way of unfettered gun rights.'

I certainly did enjoy this particular passage as an example of scathing argument. Its just so compelling "....More gun control, which plenty of respected researchers have found to be ineffective....."

So prominent and in such great numbers are these "respected researchers" that we don't even have to name them.. because, well, you know.

Nowhere in that article did Cox suggest what could be done... no, that isn't something the NRA does. They simply tell us what can't be done.

This is the reason I hold NRA members accountable for the continued gun problem in this country. Lead, follow or get of the way. They do none of the above but are instead proud of being IN THE WAY.... and that is why its membership must shoulder some of the blame. You don't like that statement, then cancel your NRA membership as you are guilty by association.

NRA, you don't want the CDC studying this (after all, I thought they were telling us this is about mental illness), then lead the charge and tell us who should study this.....but, that won't happen because its the NRA's job to simply get in the way. NRA, you say you are about responsible gun ownership.... well, you have some irresponsibility in your ranks. Do your job. Clean it up.

So, the direct answer to the OP... I don't hold gun owners responsible, I hold NRA members partially responsible.
 
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