Discussion with logic man on the nature of Jesus Christ

[RGacky3]

Nonsense. The evidence is in the link and it's overwhelming. You could really enhance your understanding of Jesus if you weren't so gun shy about reading a link that doesn't have teeth to bite.

I've read links, I've read tons on the subject, maybe if you actually took the time to study the scripturse yourself, rather than just relying on links, you could defend your faith.

Nice try, but the scriptures showing the triune Godhead are in the first century New Testament works.

Show me, yourself ... SHOW ME A scripture, and explain how it denotes a trinity.

I can google "scriptures against the trinity" too and just post links, but that isn't defending faith.

YOU read the bible, and YOU show me from the scriptures.

 

[RGacky3]

BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM.

Context!

Yes ... he said Ego Eimi ... I am he .... there is literally no connection to the divine name.

When Moses went to the burning bush, how did God refer to himself?

End of story.

Adam was not alive at the time of Jesus, correct? Adam would have been unable to make that statement. And notice the use of the present tense. He didn't see before Abraham was I was, he said AM.

I'm not arguing this with you anymore.

NOT AS EGO EIMI .....

He refered to himself as "Ehyeh asher ehyeh" I am that I am, or I will be what I will be, and . When translated to greek. it's "ego eimi ho on" and when he says "I am sent you" he calls himslef "ho on"

Jesus sais Before Abraham ego eimi.

Jehovah says .

You shall say to the children of Israel "ho on" has sent you.

The bible wasn't written in english.

 

[Logicman]

I've read links, I've read tons on the subject, maybe if you actually took the time to study the scripturse yourself, rather than just relying on links, you could defend your faith.

Already have. Your positions looks awfully weak, though.

Show me, yourself ... SHOW ME A scripture, and explain how it denotes a trinity.

I can google "scriptures against the trinity" too and just post links, but that isn't defending faith.

YOU read the bible, and YOU show me from the scriptures.

It's very simple: The Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God (Acts chapter 5).

If you don't know the scriptural evidences for the Trinity after all these years then it's YOU who hasn't studied the issues.

By the way, are you now going to try to tell me the Holy Spirit isn't an individual - God?

 

[RGacky3]

Already have. Your positions looks awfully weak, though.

You listed some scriptures, all of which I showed are NOT trinitarian, you're response was basically "Not convinced" no rebuttel, no dealing with the scriptures, just ignoring it. You haven't dealt with my points OR my refutations (because you can't)

It's very simple: The Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God (Acts chapter 5).

If you don't know the scriptural evidences for the Trinity after all these years then it's YOU who hasn't studied the issues.

By the way, are you now going to try to tell me the Holy Spirit isn't an individual - God?

Where in Acts 5 does it say Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God?

I mean you just say acts 5 without actually showing the text or even making an argument.

Acts 5
31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior that he might give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.”

God EXALTED Christ to his right hand, he wasn't god, God exalted him, and the holy spirit was GIVEN by God ... not God.

And

42 And every day in the temple and at home[f] they did not cease to teach and proclaim Jesus as the Messiah.[g]

That's what they taught, that Jesus was the Messiah ... Not God.

I mean did you even read Acts 5 before you posted it?

 

[Logicman]

You listed some scriptures, all of which I showed are NOT trinitarian, you're response was basically "Not convinced" no rebuttel, no dealing with the scriptures, just ignoring it. You haven't dealt with my points OR my refutations (because you can't)

Bull. I've shown you scriptures relating to the deity of Jesus Christ. And you know the Father (or "God") in the Bible is God, and now all I have to do is show you the Holy Spirit is God.

Where in Acts 5 does it say Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God?

I mean did you even read Acts 5 before you posted it?

I didn't say Jesus was identified as God in Acts 5, just the Holy Spirit.

Did you read Acts chapter 5? If so why did you miss the following?

Acts 5:3 - Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

Bingo.

So are you still in denial?

 

[RGacky3]

Bull. I've shown you scriptures relating to the deity of Jesus Christ. And you know the Father (or "God") in the Bible is God, and now all I have to do is show you the Holy Spirit is God.

You showed me scriptures YOU CLAIM say that Jesus is God, I showed, that those scriptures DO NOT say that, and other scriptures that show that it would be impossible to be so.

I didn't say Jesus was identified as God in Acts 5, just the Holy Spirit.

Did you read Acts chapter 5? If so why did you miss the following?

Acts 5:3 - Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

Bingo.

So are you still in denial?I asked you for a scripture that defended the trinity

.

It's personification, it happens all the time in the scriptures. For example when it says "The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.” in 2 Kings 2:15, it obviously isn't literal .... or in 1 Cronicles 5:2

"26 So the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of King Pul of Assyria, the spirit of King Tilgath-pilneser of Assyria, and he carried them away, namely, the Reubenites, the Gadites, and the half-tribe of Manasseh, and brought them to Halah, Habor, Hara, and the river Gozan, to this day."

Was the spirit of King Pul a person?

Common now, that scripture isn't proof of anything supporting the trinity.

You posted a bunch of scriptures YOU CLAIM show that Jesus is Jehovah ... none of them do, and I showed that they do not. So show me one scripture that Does.

 

[Logicman]

You showed me scriptures YOU CLAIM say that Jesus is God, I showed, that those scriptures DO NOT say that, and other scriptures that show that it would be impossible to be so.

It's personification, it happens all the time in the scriptures.

Sure, but Acts 5 calls the Holy Spirit God. The Holy Spirit also speaks, instructs, and can be personally grieved:

The Deity of the Holy Spirit | Grace Communion International

You posted a bunch of scriptures YOU CLAIM show that Jesus is Jehovah ... none of them do, and I showed that they do not. So show me one scripture that Does.

I've already shown them to you. It doesn't do anything to help you understand because you're going to deny everything anyway.

So I'm done with you. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[RGacky3]

Sure, but Acts 5 calls the Holy Spirit God. The Holy Spirit also speaks, instructs, and can be personally grieved:

The Deity of the Holy Spirit | Grace Communion International

No it doesn't .... I'ts GOD'S Spirit .... Not Sprit God .... It's the Spirit OF God ....

I've already shown them to you. It doesn't do anything to help you understand because you're going to deny everything anyway.

So I'm done with you. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'm not denying the scripture ... I'm showing why they don't say what you claim they say ... if you can't defend you're doctrine, then don't pretend you can.

 

[head of joaquin]

It's very simple: The Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God (Acts chapter 5).

So there are three gods, not one. Doesn't sound biblical to me.

Now, here comes the gloss about how it doesn't really mean one, but rather three persons in one, so Jesus is different from the Father, yet not different!

You have to love this stuff!

 

[head of joaquin]

None that you will ever accept. But there are a wealth of Trinitarian scriptures:

http://www.layevangelism.com/qreference/chapter10.htm

Arguments about scriptures. Not scriptures.

If this were so important to God, you think the word "Trinity" might appear in this vast literature. It never does.

 

[Logicman]

So there are three gods, not one. Doesn't sound biblical to me.

Now, here comes the gloss about how it doesn't really mean one, but rather three persons in one, so Jesus is different from the Father, yet not different!

You have to love this stuff!

I recommend you take some theology classes.

 

[Logicman]

If this were so important to God, you think the word "Trinity" might appear in this vast literature. It never does.

Nice strawman. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

 

[head of joaquin]

I recommend you take some theology classes.

I recommend you take fewer.

 

[head of joaquin]

Nice strawman. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Metaphors. Translated: you can't explain how God can be three persons but one God.

Of course you can't, since if you had read any pertinent theology you would know that this is considered a transcendent attribute of God, and hence beyond the principle of identity (i.e., an unthinkable thought).

But you're both unschooled in the bible and in any sophisticated theology, so you are reduced to platitudes. Typical.

In any case, no such proposition exists in either the Hebrew or the Christian scriptures. It's a constructed theological argument of dubious worth and suspect intelligibility.

 

[Logicman]

Metaphors. Translated: you can't explain how God can be three persons but one God.

Of course you can't, since if you had read any pertinent theology you would know that this is considered a transcendent attribute of God, and hence beyond the principle of identity (i.e., an unthinkable thought).

But you're both unschooled in the bible and in any sophisticated theology, so you are reduced to platitudes. Typical.

In any case, no such proposition exists in either the Hebrew or the Christian scriptures. It's a constructed theological argument of dubious worth and suspect intelligibility.

Yawn...

Even ancient Jewish rabbis understood there what something akin to a Trinity. I doubt you knew that because of your limited knowledge on the subject, but here's the backup.

Grant R. Jeffrey Ministries

So welcome to the world of enlightened theology!

 

[head of joaquin]

Yawn...

Even ancient Jewish rabbis understood there what something akin to a Trinity. I doubt you knew that because of your limited knowledge on the subject, but here's the backup.

Grant R. Jeffrey Ministries

So welcome to the world of enlightened theology!

No, Judaism doesn't have "Something like a trinity". But it is really amusing how far you much stretch to make your dubious theological point that somehow it's obvious that one thing can be three things.

 

[Logicman]

No, Judaism doesn't have "Something like a trinity". But it is really amusing how far you much stretch to make your dubious theological point that somehow it's obvious that one thing can be three things.

I see you don't even respect what the ancient rabbis said. But then you're not interested in that, you just push your own theologically-challenged opinion.

Who is the "us" and "our" in the following passage from Genesis when God is speaking?

"Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,
and let him have dominion over the fist of the sea, and over the birds
of the air, and over the livestock, and over all the earth."

 

[head of joaquin]

I see you don't even respect what the ancient rabbis said. But then you're not interested in that, you just push your own theologically-challenged opinion.

Who is the "us" and "our" in the following passage from Genesis when God is speaking?

"Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,
and let him have dominion over the fist of the sea, and over the birds
of the air, and over the livestock, and over all the earth."

Oh dear, this canard.

Moses Maimondes, and every celebrated rabbi in history disagrees with you. Jews do not and never have thought of God as anything but single. The plural form is explained as either referring to the entire heavenly counsel or the use of the magisterial plural (the way English kings used to refer to themselves as "we")

You need to try harder than this.

 

[Logicman]

Oh dear, this canard.

Moses Maimondes, and every celebrated rabbi in history disagrees with you. Jews do not and never have thought of God as anything but single. The plural form is explained as either referring to the entire heavenly counsel or the use of the magisterial plural (the way English kings used to refer to themselves as "we")

You need to try harder than this.

Of course these are some of the same Jews who constantly rebelled against God, killed their own prophets, and didn't recognize their Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Awesome!

 

[head of joaquin]

Of course these are some of the same Jews who constantly rebelled against God, killed their own prophets, and didn't recognize their Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Awesome!

What?

1. In fact, they aren't the "same Jews", being separated from NT times by hundreds of years.

2. What does the action of people in 1st century Judea have to do with the meaning of Hebrew texts written 500 years before then? Is this some new form of scholarship -- don't trust rabbis on interpreting Hebrew texts because they some other rabbis purportedly didn't like Jesus (who was a rabbi!)

 

[Logicman]

What?

1. In fact, they aren't the "same Jews", being separated from NT times by hundreds of years.

Yes, spiritually they are still in rebellion against God and their Messiah.

2. What does the action of people in 1st century Judea have to do with the meaning of Hebrew texts written 500 years before then? Is this some new form of scholarship -- don't trust rabbis on interpreting Hebrew texts because they some other rabbis purportedly didn't like Jesus (who was a rabbi!)

The point is if the (A.D.) rabbis you allude to didn't know Jesus is their Messiah, then they can't be trusted to tell us who "us" and "our" are in the Genesis passage I quoted.

 

[head of joaquin]

Yes, spiritually they are still in rebellion against God and their Messiah.



The point is if the (A.D.) rabbis you allude to didn't know Jesus is their Messiah, then they can't be trusted to tell us who "us" and "our" are in the Genesis passage I quoted.

I'll take the interpretation of a passage in Genesis by a rabbi who speaks Hebrew and is a scholar in biblical history over your interpretation any day.

Further I think the idea that Jews are "in rebellion" against God is incredibly patronizing, not to mention wrong. It feeds into so many negative stereotypes I won't even get into it, except to say that there you go again, judging people outside the church when Paul tells you that is exactly what you shouldn't do. Sounds to me like you're in rebellion against God.

 

[Logicman]

I'll take the interpretation of a passage in Genesis by a rabbi who speaks Hebrew and is a scholar in biblical history over your interpretation any day.

Well, not all rabbis are Jews. Many are Messianic (Jesus believing) rabbis. So nice try.

Further I think the idea that Jews are "in rebellion" against God is incredibly patronizing, not to mention wrong. It feeds into so many negative stereotypes I won't even get into it, except to say that there you go again, judging people outside the church when Paul tells you that is exactly what you shouldn't do. Sounds to me like you're in rebellion against God.

Personally I support Israel. However, the Scriptures say, in effect, that the hearts of the Israelites have been hardened until the times of the gentiles have been fulfilled. That's in Romans. Read it. Learn it. Love it.

 

[head of joaquin]

Well, not all rabbis are Jews. Many are Messianic (Jesus believing) rabbis. So nice try.

Yeah there must be at least 10 of them. In any case, another attempt at deflection. The vast majority of rabbis now and in the past would find your interpretation of Genesis lacking. I'm going to stick with them and their scholarship.

Personally I support Israel. However, the Scriptures say, in effect, that the hearts of the Israelites have been hardened until the times of the gentiles have been fulfilled. That's in Romans. Read it. Learn it. Love it.

It's almost sad how literalists strain at a gnat and don't see the beam in their eye. You construct elaborate arguments about modern Jews based on something Paul said about first century Jews, yet you ignore Paul's clear admonition -- don't judge people outside the church. Why are you doing exactly what Paul said you shouldn't do?

 

[Logicman]

Yeah there must be at least 10 of them. In any case, another attempt at deflection. The vast majority of rabbis now and in the past would find your interpretation of Genesis lacking. I'm going to stick with them and their scholarship.

It's almost sad how literalists strain at a gnat and don't see the beam in their eye. You construct elaborate arguments about modern Jews based on something Paul said about first century Jews, yet you ignore Paul's clear admonition -- don't judge people outside the church. Why are you doing exactly what Paul said you shouldn't do?

You're just dead wrong, joachin. Jesus is already resurrected, and I believe him over you.