Discussion of reasons why folks believe what they do and supported by factual evidence...

[gamolon]

Studie,

Let's move on to what you have as your next piece of evidence for why you believe it was demolition explosives that brought down WTC7. All we seem to have established so far is that:

1. There WAS proof of fire
2. There is NO proof of explosives
3. There WAS proof of explosions throughout the day, but no proof as to what could have caused those (fire or explosives). We both agree that either can cause explosions.
4. There is NO proof of heat weakened steel
5. The entire structure of WTC7 did not collapse when the roofline started to descend. What actually collapsed was the remaining structure after the penthouse collapsed into the building.

 

[stundie]

Can you explain to me how someone creates an explosive apparatus that is needed to cut steel columns "discreet"?

By using a thermite of some decription.

Jon Cole created a very crude device which cuts the steel and is relatively quiet in comparison to traditional explosives.

In this thread or somewhere else?

https://www.debatepolitics.com/cons...l-evidence-post1067695296.html#post1067695296

So you think explosives were possibly taking out structural components throughout the day?

That is what the news reporters at GZ were saying about WTC 7.

 

[stundie]

Just making sure is all.

However, the point still stand which I originally made about fires being unable to take out the rest of the structure including undamaged floors and columns.

 

[stundie]

Studie,

Let's move on to what you have as your next piece of evidence for why you believe it was demolition explosives that brought down WTC7. All we seem to have established so far is that:

1. There WAS proof of fire
2. There is NO proof of explosives
3. There WAS proof of explosions throughout the day, but no proof as to what could have caused those (fire or explosives). We both agree that either can cause explosions.
4. There is NO proof of heat weakened steel
5. The entire structure of WTC7 did not collapse when the roofline started to descend. What actually collapsed was the remaining structure after the penthouse collapsed into the building.

Whoa!! Hold your horses here....I want to go back to number 5.

So what happened to the penthouse after it had collapsed and just before the remaining structure collapsed? Did you believe it collapsed into the rest of the structure below it? Or it just crashed into the rooftop?

I did ask you what you think happened but you never responded to it?

I think this is important for me to know before we can move on.

 

[gamolon]

Whoa!! Hold your horses here....I want to go back to number 5.

So what happened to the penthouse after it had collapsed and just before the remaining structure collapsed? Did you believe it collapsed into the rest of the structure below it? Or it just crashed into the rooftop?

I did ask you what you think happened but you never responded to it?

I think this is important for me to know before we can move on.

I believe it collapsed into the building, NOT into just to the rooftop. I believe the structural failure of that area goes down pretty far. How far down, I cannot guess. The video below shows windows being broken right when (and after) the east penthouse collapses. The last window to be broken is jest above the building rooftop on the bottom left. This leads me to believe that either falling debris, column failure pulling floors beams/girders/structural components, or both caused the windows to break.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqbUkThGlCo

Can I prove this 100%? No I cannot. Whatever the case may be, it was NOT the entire structure that collapsed when the roofline started to descend. That is a fact. How much of the remaining structure came down when the roofline descended? I can only guess.

 

[gamolon]

By using a thermite of some decription.

Jon Cole created a very crude device which cuts the steel and is relatively quiet in comparison to traditional explosives.[/quote]

So which was used? Thermite does not explode per Cole's video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qamecech9m4

That is what the news reporters at GZ were saying about WTC 7.

I didn't ask you what the the reporters SAID. I asked what YOU thought. If you think it was explosives because reporters said it was, that is fine.

Again, I am not understanding your stance at this point. You originally say that explosions were caused by demolition explosives being used. Now you say it was thermite because thermite is relatively quiet. Can you please explain?

 

[gamolon]

However, the point still stand which I originally made about fires being unable to take out the rest of the structure including undamaged floors and columns.

Wait a minute...

You said this about fires previously.

I disagree because I don't think it's the most likely cause, I totally agree it's possible still.

Yes, I totally agree that it supports the possibility it was fires.

Have you changed your mind that it is possible that fires could have caused the collapse?

 

[stundie]

I believe it collapsed into the building, NOT into just to the rooftop. I believe the structural failure of that area goes down pretty far. How far down, I cannot guess.

So would I be correct in guessing? that fires on let's say floors 28 or where columns 79 was, caused the structure between those floors and the penthouse above to suddenly give way?

You see I don't understand this, how can the structure underneath the Penthouse maintain its integrity, before the Penthouse collapses?

It looks like the structure underneath gives way after the Penthouse collapses, but for the Penthouse to collapse in the first place, there has to be changed to the structure underneath?

That to me logically doesn't make any sense? For the very top floors to fall, there has to be some kind of reduction in the structural integrity below it. This doesn't appear to happen until after the collapse of the Penthouse.

The video below shows windows being broken right when (and after) the east penthouse collapses.

You can also hear an explosion a second before this happens, it's faint rumble on here but it's definitely there.

The last window to be broken is just above the building rooftop on the bottom left. This leads me to believe that either falling debris, column failure pulling floors beams/girders/structural components, or both caused the windows to break.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqbUkThGlCo

Can I prove this 100%? No I cannot. Whatever the case may be, it was NOT the entire structure that collapsed when the roofline started to descend. That is a fact. How much of the remaining structure came down when the roofline descended? I can only guess.

But I don't understand how the Penthouse collapses without any of the structure being damaged underneath it before it collapses.
There were no fires on the top floor or in the Penthouse? So it's back to the question, again. How do fires affect the penthouse when the nearest fires are some 19 floors below it?

 

[stundie]

So which was used? Thermite does not explode per Cole's video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qamecech9m4

A combination of both of them I believe.

I didn't ask you what the the reporters SAID. I asked what YOU thought. If you think it was explosives because reporters said it was, that is fine.

I said I have to accept all the evidence unless there is counter evidence to disbelieve it or there are logical reasons to dismiss it.

I believe the reporters are telling us the truth, there were explosions going off at WTC 7 all day. 3 different reporters, at slightly different locations over GZ, all report explosions.

Again, I am not understanding your stance at this point. You originally say that explosions were caused by demolition explosives being used. Now you say it was thermite because thermite is relatively quiet. Can you please explain?

I never said it was demolition explosives or even shaped charges, because I do not know the type of explosives that were used.

I believe it was a combination of traditional explosives and thermite.

The explosives were probably used for the bigger columns and thermite to cut or weaken the steel elsewhere, so that it's not as noisey as a traditional demolition.

 

[stundie]

Wait a minute...

You said this about fires previously.


Have you changed your mind that it is possible that fires could have caused the collapse?

No, I've not changed my mind or opinion.

There is a possibility that it was done by fires, but I don't believe it adds up.

One of those reasons is that I don't see a method for how fire can effect floors where there are no fires.

As I stated, according to the NIST and I've not seen any evidence otherwise (If I remember correctly!), the highest floors on fires in the WTC 7 was floor 28.

So how does a fire 19 floors cause the Penthouse to collapse first? Could it be possible, yes, but I've not seen any valid explanation?

You already said that the penthouse collapsing caused the structual integrity to fail internally, when I can't see how that could have ever have happened??

 

[gamolon]

One of those reasons is that I don't see a method for how fire can effect floors where there are no fires.

Let's talk about column 79 for example. Column 79 went from the first floor all the way up to the roof. There were 3 girders connected to that column for each floor starting at the 8th floor. Below the 8th floor, the configuration was a little different. Connected to the north side of column 79 was a girder connecting it to column 40 of the north side facade column wall. Connected to the west side of column 79 was a girder connecting it to column 76 of the core. Connected to the south side of column 79 was a girder connected to column 80 of the core.

So column 7, from the first floor to the roof, helped support the load of all the floor from 8 to the roof as those three connected girders had floor beams connected to them which supported the concrete floors and anything put on them. These 3 girders also provided lateral support to column 79.

If I remove those three girders over 8 floors, are you are telling me that you cannot see the possibility of the load of all the floors above 13, still tied into column 79 and providing a vertical load upon it, could not have buckled that column in that area? If so, you don't think that the buckling would go all the way up to the roof/penthouse?

 

[gamolon]

No, I've not changed my mind or opinion.

There is a possibility that it was done by fires, but I don't believe it adds up.

One of those reasons is that I don't see a method for how fire can effect floors where there are no fires.

As I stated, according to the NIST and I've not seen any evidence otherwise (If I remember correctly!), the highest floors on fires in the WTC 7 was floor 28.

So how does a fire 19 floors cause the Penthouse to collapse first? Could it be possible, yes, but I've not seen any valid explanation?

You already said that the penthouse collapsing caused the structual integrity to fail internally, when I can't see how that could have ever have happened??

In regards to the mechanical penthouse collapsing...

Do you think explosives/thermite caused the collapse of the penthouse? Do you think it was just the penthouse that collapsed to the roof only or do you think it went farther into the building then the roof?

 

[gamolon]

It looks like the structure underneath gives way after the Penthouse collapses, but for the Penthouse to collapse in the first place, there has to be changed to the structure underneath?

That to me logically doesn't make any sense? For the very top floors to fall, there has to be some kind of reduction in the structural integrity below it. This doesn't appear to happen until after the collapse of the Penthouse.

Watch the video I linked previously of the collapse. Right at the same time the penthouse starts to collapse, I see a window break just above the building roof on the left and I see the facade "shudder" or "move" on that north face below the penthouse.

 

[stundie]

Let's talk about column 79 for example. Column 79 went from the first floor all the way up to the roof. There were 3 girders connected to that column for each floor starting at the 8th floor. Below the 8th floor, the configuration was a little different. Connected to the north side of column 79 was a girder connecting it to column 40 of the north side facade column wall. Connected to the west side of column 79 was a girder connecting it to column 76 of the core. Connected to the south side of column 79 was a girder connected to column 80 of the core.

So column 7, from the first floor to the roof, helped support the load of all the floor from 8 to the roof as those three connected girders had floor beams connected to them which supported the concrete floors and anything put on them. These 3 girders also provided lateral support to column 79.

If I remove those three girders over 8 floors, are you are telling me that you cannot see the possibility of the load of all the floors above 13, still tied into column 79 and providing a vertical load upon it, could not have buckled that column in that area? If so, you don't think that the buckling would go all the way up to the roof/penthouse?

I can't see it myself, because there is still plenty of interconnected columns and girders of steel.

And it doesn't look like what we see from the video. The penthouse collapses and then the window pop out which would indicate that the penthouse collapses and crashes through the rest of the structure. I can't see how this could happened from a failure many floors below at around column 79.

If what you were proposing was true, then I would expect to see the failures lower down happen first where the girders and columns are removed and there is no signs that is happening at all. Even if it did fail, I think it would gradually buckle and not happen in an instant.

 

[stundie]

In regards to the mechanical penthouse collapsing...

Do you think explosives/thermite caused the collapse of the penthouse?

Yes, because the explosion is preciptated by the collapse of the building.

Do you think it was just the penthouse that collapsed to the roof only or do you think it went farther into the building then the roof?

I think the penthouse went through the roof of the building as the broken windows seem to indicate.

However, I think that if the penthouse had collapsed on it's own accord, I don't believe there would be enough energy to smash through the roof.

 

[stundie]

Watch the video I linked previously of the collapse. Right at the same time the penthouse starts to collapse, I see a window break just above the building roof on the left and I see the facade "shudder" or "move" on that north face below the penthouse.

After the penthouse starts collapsing, the first windows I see breaking are about 8 floors below the roof line. They appear to give way before the roofline of the Penthouse disappears. Then as the penthouse roof disappears, more broken windows appear about 4 floors above from where the windows start breaking and then randomly above and below the initiatal window breaks happen.

What I did notice is that the top windows appear to become lighter after the penthouse roofline disappears, like you can almost see through the buildings windows or the dust/debris behind it.

But I can't see the facade shudder or move though. Could you point it out?

 

[gamolon]

And it doesn't look like what we see from the video. The penthouse collapses and then the window pop out which would indicate that the penthouse collapses and crashes through the rest of the structure.

The red circle in the screen capture above shows windows that have broken/popped out. How can you say that those windows popped out because of debris from the penthouse when the penthouse is at the beginning of it's collapse? Surely you don't think debris from the penthouse traveled about 8 floors in about one second to break windows.

 

[gamolon]

Could you point it out?

I can try. Below is another screen capture from the video I posted.

The capture on the left is right before the penthouse collapse. The capture to the right is right at the beginning of the penthouse collapse. Look inside the red ovals and see if you notice the difference in the "window tint" or "window gray scale". I can see the transition of the "window gray scale" from one to the other which to me, indicates a physical change/movement of the facade in that area. It cannot be from the penthouse debris removing floors and whatnot to allow light to come through because the penthouse has just started it's collapse and there is no way debris made it that far down in a split second.

That facade change is due to movement of structural elements connected to it.

 

[gamolon]

What I did notice is that the top windows appear to become lighter after the penthouse roofline disappears, like you can almost see through the buildings windows or the dust/debris behind it.

I agree, but this is after the penthouse has completely disappeared.

 

[gamolon]

And it doesn't look like what we see from the video. The penthouse collapses and then the window pop out which would indicate that the penthouse collapses and crashes through the rest of the structure. I can't see how this could happened from a failure many floors below at around column 79.

Let's take a couple steps back.

Do you understand how the three girders and the floors connected to column 79, which connect to other surrounding columns all the way up to the roof, provides lateral stability for column 79 for supporting the vertical load placed upon it from the roof to concrete pad on the ground?

 

[gamolon]

Let's take a couple steps back.

Do you understand how the three girders and the floors connected to column 79, which connect to other surrounding columns all the way up to the roof, provides lateral stability for column 79 for supporting the vertical load placed upon it from the roof to concrete pad on the ground?

The image below is what I am saying happens when you remove the lateral stability of the girders/floors around column 79. It buckles due to the load put on it from the floors above. Do you agree that this buckling failure of column 79 is possible if those girders/floors are gone?

 

[stundie]

View attachment 67223790

The red circle in the screen capture above shows windows that have broken/popped out. How can you say that those windows popped out because of debris from the penthouse when the penthouse is at the beginning of it's collapse?


Surely you don't think debris from the penthouse traveled about 8 floors in about one second to break windows.

I'm not saying that it was the penthouse, I think it was debris falling from the explosion which you hear moments before the penthouse goes.

I noticed the windows on the red circles, but I was looking higher up because you said..." I see a window break just above the building roof on the left and I see the facade "shudder" or "move" on that north face below the penthouse."

Clearly it wasn't the Penthouse breaking the windows 8 floors below and there certainly isn't any fires on the floors where the windows are breaking.

So what do you think it was? Girders and columns being pulled from much lower down where the fires are?

 

[stundie]

I can try. Below is another screen capture from the video I posted.
View attachment 67223791
The capture on the left is right before the penthouse collapse. The capture to the right is right at the beginning of the penthouse collapse. Look inside the red ovals and see if you notice the difference in the "window tint" or "window gray scale". I can see the transition of the "window gray scale" from one to the other which to me, indicates a physical change/movement of the facade in that area. It cannot be from the penthouse debris removing floors and whatnot to allow light to come through because the penthouse has just started it's collapse and there is no way debris made it that far down in a split second.

That facade change is due to movement of structural elements connected to it.

Thanks a lot. I can see what you mean now, it moves in conjunction as the penthouse starts icollapsing.

So there are possibly some sort of structual failures happening here? That much I'm sure we agree on.

The structure on those floors is rock solid and very unlikely to be effected by the fires some 18 floors below it and some 30 odd floors below where column 79 is. The steel on those floors before the collapse are all interconnected and doing its job of holding the building up, then suddenly it's not.

I do not see how fires, even if they caused a failure many floors below, would cause this to happen?

 

[stundie]

I agree, but this is after the penthouse has completely disappeared.

Of course.

 

[stundie]

Let's take a couple steps back.

Do you understand how the three girders and the floors connected to column 79, which connect to other surrounding columns all the way up to the roof, provides lateral stability for column 79 for supporting the vertical load placed upon it from the roof to concrete pad on the ground?

I have a pretty good understanding of the construction of the WTC 7. The girders from column 79 went to columns 76, 80 and one to the exterior column with multiple beams going across each girder, connecting it to the exterior columns.

I am not seeing any method that weakening around this part of the structure, can causes the floors above it, which were intact, to suddenly give way.