Define assault weapon

[jet57]

The overwhelming majority are ignorant of the history of the AR15, largely because of the misinformation and stupidity published by the "enemy of the people," mainstream media.

What misinformation would that be...

 

[RF667799]

He permanently destroyed any credibility he might have had on the gun issue when he claimed that AR 15s should be banned since they were "designed for heavy combat" or as "weapons for warfare" while saying he had an MI Carbine

Wait....aren't both of those magazine fed, lightweight, air cooled, gas operated, semi-automatics chambering an intermediate cartridge?

I think one of them was used by the millions in warfare though. Is that the significant difference between the two weapons?

 

[Glitch]

Wait....aren't both of those magazine fed, lightweight, air cooled, gas operated, semi-automatics chambering an intermediate cartridge?

I think one of them was used by the millions in warfare though. Is that the significant difference between the two weapons?

The M1 Carbine is also the only one that chambers an intermediate cartridge. Both the M1 Garand and the AR15 use full-size cartridges. Oddly, so does the M4 Carbine. Instead of using the 5.59mm x 39mm intermediate cartridge one would expect with a carbine, the M4 Carbine uses the full-size 5.56mm x 45mm cartridge.

 

[Glitch]

What misinformation would that be...

That the AR15 was designed and developed specifically for civilian use a full decade before it was modified and sold to the military as the M16A1.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

The phrase "compelling government interest" is not in the Constitution.

That does not change the fact that the Supreme Court allows the government to regulate a right when there is a compelling government interest.

Many reasons for government action are in the Constitution.

Those reasons are compelling government interests.

 

[RF667799]

The M1 Carbine is also the only one that chambers an intermediate cartridge. Both the M1 Garand and the AR15 use full-size cartridges. Oddly, so does the M4 Carbine. Instead of using the 5.59mm x 39mm intermediate cartridge one would expect with a carbine, the M4 Carbine uses the full-size 5.56mm x 45mm cartridge.

Do you mean 5.45 x 39? I wouldn't expect an M4 to use that.

I consider 5.56 x 45 to be traditionally an intermediate cartridge. It's not a pistol cartridge as used in SMGs and it's not a full size rifle cartridge as chambered in crew served weapons and battle rifles like Garands.

 

[TurtleDude]

Okay, well you have no credibility. You should have stopped at the typo.

The agonizing screams of irony meters, as they explode en mass are still ringing in my ears.

 

[TurtleDude]

Wait....aren't both of those magazine fed, lightweight, air cooled, gas operated, semi-automatics chambering an intermediate cartridge?

I think one of them was used by the millions in warfare though. Is that the significant difference between the two weapons?

One was probably responsible for more enemy KIA than any other semi automatic rifle in history, given over 6 million were issued during WWII and were a mainstay of our men in Korea, and the early part of Nam. Millions the went to allies-Korea got tons, and Columbian Military Police we met at checkpoints on the Pan-American highway, were armed with what were once US military MI Carbines. a long deceased CSM I used to know-served in the Pacific in WWII (Rangers), Korea (Rangers) and Nam (Special Forces) was cleaning an MI carbine at the range where I was a staff professional shooter and he was the range master./ Some gunshop commando said "those MIs weren't any good" and the CSM said, in a quiet voice-"well son, about 27 or so Chinamen might disagree with you if they were around to talk". In Korea, he was commanding three machine gun positions when Chinese "Volunteers" tried to come around through a pass to flank the machine gunners and the CSM took a position guarding the pass, with two MI Carbines and a satchel full of 15 round magazines He noted after he shot about 27 of them, they figured out that they weren't getting through the pass-and at that time, the bad weather lifted and the Sabres came in and strafed and napalmed the field where the Chinese were assembled and trying to attack the machine guns. The CSM earned a silver star (one of two, IIRC) for that.

Anyway, he used his two MI carbines to kill more enemies of the USA than AR 15s have been used by our military

 

[haymarket]

That does not change the fact that the Supreme Court allows the government to regulate a right when there is a compelling government interest.



Those reasons are compelling government interests.

Glad to hear you say there are lots of reason for the government to regulate guns.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

Glad to hear you say there are lots of reason for the government to regulate guns.

There are lots of potential reasons for a compelling government interest. I think that most gun control would probably be for one specific reason: promoting the general welfare.

Regardless of which reason though, regulations must be in furtherance of one of these reasons. Regulations that are unconnected to any of these reasons are forbidden.

A key example is when they try to ban pistol grips on rifles. Banning pistol grips is not connected to any legitimate reason for regulation.

 

[Glitch]

Do you mean 5.45 x 39? I wouldn't expect an M4 to use that.

I consider 5.56 x 45 to be traditionally an intermediate cartridge. It's not a pistol cartridge as used in SMGs and it's not a full size rifle cartridge as chambered in crew served weapons and battle rifles like Garands.

You would be mistaken. The 5.56mm x 45mm is the full-length cartridge. The 5.56mm x 39mm is the intermediate cartridge. Carbines typically fire an intermediate cartridge, like the AK-74 which uses the 5.56mm x 39mm intermediate cartridge. The M4 is the only carbine that I know of that uses a full size cartridge (5.56mm x 45mm) instead of the intermediate cartridge.

 

[Glitch]

One was probably responsible for more enemy KIA than any other semi automatic rifle in history, given over 6 million were issued during WWII and were a mainstay of our men in Korea, and the early part of Nam. Millions the went to allies-Korea got tons, and Columbian Military Police we met at checkpoints on the Pan-American highway, were armed with what were once US military MI Carbines. a long deceased CSM I used to know-served in the Pacific in WWII (Rangers), Korea (Rangers) and Nam (Special Forces) was cleaning an MI carbine at the range where I was a staff professional shooter and he was the range master./ Some gunshop commando said "those MIs weren't any good" and the CSM said, in a quiet voice-"well son, about 27 or so Chinamen might disagree with you if they were around to talk". In Korea, he was commanding three machine gun positions when Chinese "Volunteers" tried to come around through a pass to flank the machine gunners and the CSM took a position guarding the pass, with two MI Carbines and a satchel full of 15 round magazines He noted after he shot about 27 of them, they figured out that they weren't getting through the pass-and at that time, the bad weather lifted and the Sabres came in and strafed and napalmed the field where the Chinese were assembled and trying to attack the machine guns. The CSM earned a silver star (one of two, IIRC) for that.

Anyway, he used his two MI carbines to kill more enemies of the USA than AR 15s have been used by our military

Your story reminded me of something "Chesty" Puller said on November 30, 1950 after being informed that his 1st Marine Division was completely surrounded by several Chinese Divisions: "Those poor bastards! They have us exactly where we want them. Now we can shoot in every direction."

"Chesty" Puller and his 1st Marine Division owe their lives to Captain William E. Barber.

William Earl Barber (1919-2002) was an officer in the United States Marine Corps awarded with the Medal of Honor for his actions in the Battle of Chosin Reservoir during the Korean War. With only 220 men under his command, Barber held off more than 1,400 Peoples Republic of China soldiers during six days of fighting. Despite the extreme cold weather conditions and himself suffering a bone fracturing wound to the leg, Barber refused an order to leave his position fearing that a retreat would trap 8,000 other Marines. Barber and his limited number of men killed over 1,000 enemy troops; only 82 of his men were able to walk away after eventually being relieved.

 

[TurtleDude]

Your story reminded me of something "Chesty" Puller said on November 30, 1950 after being informed that his 1st Marine Division was completely surrounded by several Chinese Divisions: "Those poor bastards! They have us exactly where we want them. Now we can shoot in every direction."

The CSM's position was in front of some foothills with a large field in front of him and his machine gun positions were above the field that the Chinese "volunteers" were massing on and trying to charge the machine gun positions. He noted many of the volunteers didn't appear to be armed at all-he figured, those in the rear would pick up the rifles dropped by those the machine gunners killed. The also noted that the Chinese didn't have much in the way of ordnance and no artillery since his positions were apparently a surprise to the Chinese whom he assumed were using the field to assemble for an offensive against allied positions behind the foot hills. The weather, he noted was awful-making it tough for US fighters to operate or even see. His men were dumping water or even pissing on the barrels of the 30 caliber machine guns to keep them from overheating and he was worried there were more Chinese than he had rounds for the brownings. He figured they would try to come through a pass behind his men, so he positioned himself where he saw them before they could see him and he took two MI Carbines and lots of mags and head shot the 27 or so in the patrol. He said his men were down to one belt each for the brownings when the fog lifted and three Sabres came in with napalm and strafing with the 50 caliber machine guns the planes had

 

[Glitch]

The CSM's position was in front of some foothills with a large field in front of him and his machine gun positions were above the field that the Chinese "volunteers" were massing on and trying to charge the machine gun positions. He noted many of the volunteers didn't appear to be armed at all-he figured, those in the rear would pick up the rifles dropped by those the machine gunners killed. The also noted that the Chinese didn't have much in the way of ordnance and no artillery since his positions were apparently a surprise to the Chinese whom he assumed were using the field to assemble for an offensive against allied positions behind the foot hills. The weather, he noted was awful-making it tough for US fighters to operate or even see. His men were dumping water or even pissing on the barrels of the 30 caliber machine guns to keep them from overheating and he was worried there were more Chinese than he had rounds for the brownings. He figured they would try to come through a pass behind his men, so he positioned himself where he saw them before they could see him and he took two MI Carbines and lots of mags and head shot the 27 or so in the patrol. He said his men were down to one belt each for the brownings when the fog lifted and three Sabres came in with napalm and strafing with the 50 caliber machine guns the planes had

The Soviets employed a similar strategy with their defense of Stalingrad. They didn't have the firearms, like the Chinese. Whereas the US, sitting completely untouched by either war, was cranking out weapons like there was no tomorrow. We had guns and ammo to spare.

Cpt. Barber deployed his 220 men to cover a 3-mile wide pass. I'm afraid I've forgotten the name of the pass. That works out to just one person every 72 feet. Presumably they fought in two-man foxholes. That would put ~144 feet between each foxhole.

 

[jet57]

That the AR15 was designed and developed specifically for civilian use a full decade before it was modified and sold to the military as the M16A1.

Wrong again: The Complete History of the AR-15 Rifle | Small Wars Journal

 

[haymarket]

There are lots of potential reasons for a compelling government interest. I think that most gun control would probably be for one specific reason: promoting the general welfare.

Regardless of which reason though, regulations must be in furtherance of one of these reasons. Regulations that are unconnected to any of these reasons are forbidden.

A key example is when they try to ban pistol grips on rifles. Banning pistol grips is not connected to any legitimate reason for regulation.

Once again, this is NOT language from the Constitution.

 

[Glitch]

Wrong again: The Complete History of the AR-15 Rifle | Small Wars Journal

You obviously didn't read your own source:

In 1959, ArmaLite finally catches a break, striking a deal with Colt. The company manages to sell both the AR-10 and the new AR-15 designs to Colt Firearms.

ArmaLite designed and developed both the AR10 and AR15 specifically for civilian use in 1956. They sold both to Colt three years later in 1959. Colt modified the AR15 and sold it to the US military in 1964 as the M16A1.

Again, as your own source confirms:

The first M-16 rifles were issued in March of 1965.

That means the M16 is based upon the AR15, not the other way round as you incorrectly stated.

 

[RF667799]

You would be mistaken. The 5.56mm x 45mm is the full-length cartridge. The 5.56mm x 39mm is the intermediate cartridge. Carbines typically fire an intermediate cartridge, like the AK-74 which uses the 5.56mm x 39mm intermediate cartridge. The M4 is the only carbine that I know of that uses a full size cartridge (5.56mm x 45mm) instead of the intermediate cartridge.

AK-74 is chambered in 5.45 x 39. It has no relationship to the 5.56 x 45 that is the service chambering for the M16 family which includes the M4. Would you consider the 7.62 x 39 of the AK47 as being an intermediate cartridge?

"Carbine" is just a general term for a rifle that is comparatively shorter and lighter. Nothing to do with using an intermediate cartridge. In fact, I can think of several carbines that are chambered for the exact round that fed the full rifle length version. A good example is the Lee-Enfield No. 5 "Jungle Carbine".

 

[TurtleDude]

You obviously didn't read your own source:

ArmaLite designed and developed both the AR10 and AR15 specifically for civilian use in 1956. They sold both to Colt three years later in 1959. Colt modified the AR15 and sold it to the US military in 1964 as the M16A1.

Again, as your own source confirms:


That means the M16 is based upon the AR15, not the other way round as you incorrectly stated.

Yep you are right, and the MI Carbine jet claims he owns, was specifically developed for the military. Yet he claims the AR 15 was developed for HEAVY COMBAT!!

 

[Glitch]

AK-74 is chambered in 5.45 x 39. It has no relationship to the 5.56 x 45 that is the service chambering for the M16 family which includes the M4. Would you consider the 7.62 x 39 of the AK47 as being an intermediate cartridge?

"Carbine" is just a general term for a rifle that is comparatively shorter and lighter. Nothing to do with using an intermediate cartridge. In fact, I can think of several carbines that are chambered for the exact round that fed the full rifle length version. A good example is the Lee-Enfield No. 5 "Jungle Carbine".

I said earlier that I was only aware of one carbine using a full size cartridge, and now you have made me aware of a second. I had no idea that made a Lee-Enfield Carbine, but it certainly uses the same size .303 round. I've always thought that part of the definition of a "carbine" was that it used an intermediate round, as well as being shorter and lighter in weight. Now I'm having to rethink that definition.

 

[RF667799]

I said earlier that I was only aware of one carbine using a full size cartridge, and now you have made me aware of a second. I had no idea that made a Lee-Enfield Carbine, but it certainly uses the same size .303 round. I've always thought that part of the definition of a "carbine" was that it used an intermediate round, as well as being shorter and lighter in weight. Now I'm having to rethink that definition.

There's probably plenty of things I haven't heard of. I wouldn't know how many, because I've never heard of them.

 

[Glitch]

Yep you are right, and the MI Carbine jet claims he owns, was specifically developed for the military. Yet he claims the AR 15 was developed for HEAVY COMBAT!!

I think it was the Air Force who were first issued the M16A1 in 1965. When I joined the Marine Corps in 1972 the M16A1 was still new. We drilled with the M14, and only qualified with the M16A1. The night fire on fully auto was a rather interesting display. Particularly when you've got 50 guys firing nothing but tracers. I don't know if we hit anything, but it was a nice light show.

 

[TurtleDude]

I think it was the Air Force who were first issued the M16A1 in 1965. When I joined the Marine Corps in 1972 the M16A1 was still new. We drilled with the M14, and only qualified with the M16A1. The night fire on fully auto was a rather interesting display. Particularly when you've got 50 guys firing nothing but tracers. I don't know if we hit anything, but it was a nice light show.

Yeah a friend of mine (RIP) who was in Nam in the early days 63-66 or so and was one of the first to wear a greenie beanie, noted they got the M16s long before the Marines did. I think IIRC from "MARINE SNIPER" Hathcock's spotter always was using an M14

 

[jet57]

You obviously didn't read your own source:

ArmaLite designed and developed both the AR10 and AR15 specifically for civilian use in 1956. They sold both to Colt three years later in 1959. Colt modified the AR15 and sold it to the US military in 1964 as the M16A1.

Again, as your own source confirms:


That means the M16 is based upon the AR15, not the other way round as you incorrectly stated.

Yeah, no.... You left this part out:

1963: The M-16 is Born

With the AR-15 in the hands of the Air Force, a standard model of the rifle is born. They dub it the M-16, the most famous service weapon of the United States Military.

General Curtis LeMay saw a demonstration of the AR-15 in 1960. Impressed by the prowess of this new firearm, when General LeMay became the Air Force Chief of Staff in the Summer of 1961, he placed 80,000 AR-15's on order for the U.S. Air Force.

In 1961, ten AR-15's were sent to South Vietnam, as the United States continued to penetrate into the jungles of Indochina.

So, it was a combat design for the AR15 all along, as I shown numerous times.

Where did I incorrectly state that the AR15 replaced the M16?

 

[OscarLevant]

That's it. Simple. This is a thread for both gun nuts and gun haters to posit and work put exactly what an assault weapon is.

Full auto, semi auto, bolt action, flint lock? How many rounds per minute? Magazine capacity? Barrel length? Caliber?

From Wikipedia:

...the U.S. Department of Justice said, "In general, assault weapons are semiautomatic firearms with a large magazine of ammunition that were designed and configured for rapid fire and combat use."[3] The origin of the term has been attributed to legislators, gun control groups, the media and the firearms industry.[1][4][5][6][7] It is sometimes conflated with the term "assault rifle", which refers to selective-fire military rifles that can fire in automatic or burst mode.[5]

If you want to go to a place where a line is drawn, and indicate the absurdity of being slightly to one side of the line or passed it, fine, go there.

The line has to be drawn somewhere. In my view, only bolt action single shot rifles, the kind used for hunting, should be allowed for civilians. Yes, I'm aware that rifle companies have designed rifles for civilian use that look like assault weapons and I'm for banning them just because they nuture the gun fetishists, which I hold to be a very sick disease.