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Credible economists do not refute annual trade deficits detrimental affects upon their nation's GDP.

. Capitaliism v. Socialism is too minute a metric to gauge the world’s mass psychological feelings on the economy,


well, if the world was socialist and 100's of millions were again slowly starving to death feelings would be negative on libsocialism. Do you understand??
 
You're just using these terms as partisan buzzwords. Economists avoid thinking and talking in this sense because the over-politicization has cast these terms to be open to interpretation.

totally wrong of course! Capitalism is freedom from govt while socialism is the exact opposite. There are no interpretations. Socialists know they are not capitalists. You pretend they are open to interpretation only because you lack the ability to determine what you are. Now do you understand?
 
Your understanding of capitalism and socialism is logically consistent with someone rooting for the NY Giants over the NY Jets.

My understanding is MIlton Friedman's understanding. If you disagree say why or admit you are just gassing and have no idea what on earth you are talking about.
 
We aren't talking about national income. We are talking about Gross Domestic Product. For sure, the Expenditure method is one method used to determine GDP, but it is also the most widely used method and it is the one used by the government because accurate data is easier to get.

First of all, statistical agencies usually use both expenditure and income data to compute GDP. The reason is that both of these quantities must be exactly equal by definition. Ultimately, you're tracking cash flows and calling them income or expenditure is just a matter of perspective. When you compute both of them, you will never get the exact same value in practice because of measurement errors. The whole point here is that by getting two estimates and forcing them to be equal, you can split the statistical discrepancy equally between both and limit the amount of error you would incur from using either method alone. Moreover, you will usually find an entry for a statistical discrepancy in national accounts. So, whether you talk about income, production or expenditures, you're talking about the same quantity, albeit from different points of view.

All of this is explained here by the BEA: Box: The Statistical Discrepancy.

As far as how changes in different values affect GDP...it's a formula. Changing values and looking at the resulting changes in GDP is the easiest thing in the world.

Y = C + I + G + (X - M)

Let's use primes to denote other values. It is true that if we take C'=C, I'=I, G'=G, use XN := (X-M) as net exports, we have Y' > Y if XN' > XN, as you explain: if the trade deficit (minus net exports, -XN) falls and nothing else changes, GDP will rise. The whole problem is, however, that we have spillovers across countries and multiple markets in this environment that you cannot neglect. Not only is it not true that nothing else will change, but it is also the case that the region of the function you are exploring with this trick is not even interesting.

You might have in mind something such as imposing a tariff or some other barrier to entry so that imports might be pushed downward and the domestic product would rise. However, you have to keep in mind that any such measure would impose costs on domestic households and producers. If you target raw materials, intermediate goods or services, you will raise production costs for domestic firms. That is pretty much the definition of what you're doing to curb import in practice. And whether you do this or go after final goods, it will ultimately impact what consumers pay and that will influence their behavior with regards to saving and borrowing. Likewise with firms, depending on how permanent your policy is perceived to be. And, obviously, this will have an impact on foreign firms and their investments as well, not to mention that other countries might want to retaliate in a like manner.

It's by no means obvious that you won't turn out to shoot yourself in the foot. One way to answer this question would be to try it in a few DSGE models and see what happens. It would be especially interesting because those models impose that this accounting identity holds exactly all the time. I personally never looked into this literature on international trade, but your quick and dirty idea of just looking at the above equation suggests you'd anticipate a change of 1:1: push imports down one dollar, gain one dollar of domestic production. I would be surprised to find anything like it, let alone anything like that if the changes to trade policy are very large.

My comment also underscores a problem with this thread: you're all asking the wrong question. From a practical standpoint, the question is how to modulate trade policy. You don't have a hand on any component of GDP, except perhaps government spending (usually, with a delay).
 
the question is how to modulate trade policy.

1) Govt has no right to modulate trade given we are a free country

2) GDP grew from Stone age to here not because of trade modulation but because of new inventions and free trade.

Now do you understand?
 
My understanding is MIlton Friedman's understanding.

You don't speak for Milton Friedman, nor am I debating him. Stop acting like a phoney and know your place.
 
The expenditure approach to national income accounting is just that... an accounting metric. It does not tell us anything about how changes in different values affect GDP. I'm going to offer you the chance to do the smart thing... and try to learn something as opposed to pushing an agenda.
Kushinator, you dismiss expenditure method for calculating a nation’s GDP as only “an accounting metric”. It’s a formula that employs the nation’s net balance of international trade in a very exact manner. It precisely specifies how the nation’s balance of trade will consequentially affect the calculation of the nation’s GDP.
Respectfully, Supposn
 
My understanding is MIlton Friedman's understanding. ...
James972, your understanding of what, is Milton Friedman's understanding? Is Milton Friedman aware and agrees with all things as you understand them? I don’t suppose any of us suspected that is the case. Respectfully, Supposn
 
Kushinator, you dismiss expenditure method for calculating a nation’s GDP as only “an accounting metric”.

It's an accounting identity. You cannot derive the basis of economic growth from an identity. We've been through this on multiple occasions, and still you persists after being corrected.

It’s a formula

It's an identity. Do you know the difference?

that employs the nation’s net balance of international trade in a very exact manner. It precisely specifies how the nation’s balance of trade will consequentially affect the calculation of the nation’s GDP.

More nonsense. Imports will count towards consumption. Consumption that was not produced in the U.S. will be simultaneously subtracted in the form of (imports - exports < 0 ). As stated in a previous exchange... such transactions amount to a net zero. Subtracting imports is just a means of avoiding double-counting. That i have to explain this to you, once again, shows you don't have the slightest clue.
 
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It's an accounting identity. You cannot derive the basis of economic growth from an identity. We've been through this on multiple occasions, and still you persists after being corrected. …. It's an identity. Do you know the difference? ...
Kushinator, I have many years of professional experience as a computer programmer and as a systems analyst. I was employed by financial institutions and had worked upon their accounting applications. But I’m not familiar with the term you use, “accounting identity”. My searches within accounting dictionaries among terms related to the words “accounting” and/or “identity” were unsuccessful.

Could you inform and explain what you believe is the definition of an “accounting identity”? May an accounting identity also be described a formula? May a formula also be described an “accounting identity”?

Respectfully, Supposn
 
Kushinator, I have many years of professional experience as a computer programmer and as a systems analyst.

I could not care less.

But I’m not familiar with the term you use, “accounting identity”. My searches within accounting dictionaries among terms related to the words “accounting” and/or “identity” were unsuccessful.

Could you inform and explain what you believe is the definition of an “accounting identity”? May an accounting identity also be described a formula? May a formula also be described an “accounting identity”?

This subject is covered in a college level macroeconomics course, and you should be well versed in the subject matter prior to making countless obsessive posts about exports, GDP, and tariffs. In any event, here is a wikipedia page. I have very little confidence in your ability to learn, given you've been pushing your naive agenda for over a decade without a single instance of reflection.
 
Credible economists do not refute annual trade deficits detrimental affects upon their nation's GDP.
Actually, they do.

To be specific, all economists accept that GDP is C + G + I + NX. That does not mean they view trade deficits as harmful, as implied by your language. Quite the opposite, in fact. Long story short:
• Free trade is beneficial overall for all parties

• A nation typically imports more goods when it is doing well, thus people can buy more foreign goods.

• Higher imports typically results in more foreign investment (they've got to do something with those dollars).

• Attempts to curb trade deficits (usually via protectionist measures) almost always backfire or fail. We've seen this with Trump's protectionist measures.
- Trump whacks China with tariffs
- American companies buy up tons of Chinese goods, in anticipation of the higher costs, which -- surprise! -- increases the trade deficit
- China retaliates by levying its own tariffs, and purchasing fewer American goods, and investing less in the US
- Even if you think it would work, it won't. When fewer dollars go abroad, the result is that the dollar becomes stronger, thus it is more advantageous for Americans to buy more foreign goods and services, because they get more for their money.

The end result is that protectionism is typically self-defeating and ends in failure.


I believe you'll find creditable economists do not refute that due to USA's reported annual trade deficits, USA's annual domestic production was less than otherwise because USA's products (more than otherwise), were net “crowded out” of all, [our USA domestic plus foreign] marketplaces.
Or... not.

Economists understand comparative advantage, meaning that trade is beneficial to both parties, because they can specialize and thus optimize both sides of the equation. Instead of hiring expensive American employees to make socks, companies hire relatively cheap Chinese workers to make socks, and thus dramatically reduce their costs. That frees up expensive American workers to do higher-value work, like maintaining highly automated factories. It's not perfectly frictionless, but that's generally how it works.

The real tell, of course, is that US manufacturing output is basically near record highs. The reality is that we simply do not need a lot of labor to make a huge amount of goods, because we've leveraged automation to the hilt. This is a chart of US manufacturing output, indexed for inflation. Notice how the biggest hit is from recessions, and that Trump's protectionist policies have not resulted in any growth of real manufacturing output.

Manufacturing Real Output.jpg


By the way, manufacturing is only around 10% of the labor force today. The idea that we should basically trash the global economy to put a handful of Americans back to work is a tiny bit ludicrous.
 
James972, your understanding of what,

of economics of course!!!!!!!!!! And Friedman would say GDP growth comes from new inventions and free trade, not from tariff taxes to reduce free trade!!! 1+1=2
 
Kushinator, we do or do not agree? The GDP expenditure formula is an accounting identity? Due to individual nations’ net balances of international trade, surplus trade nations’ GDPs exceeded, and trade deficit nations’ GDPs were less than their nation’s net spending for goods and service products?

Or do you contend otherwise? What’s the significance of the label? The attributes of "a rose by any other name" are not changed by renaming it. Respectfully, Supposn
 
Originally Posted by I'm Supposn
Credible economists do not refute annual trade deficits detrimental affects upon their nation's GDP.
Actually, they do. ...
Visbek, most credible economists are proponents rather than opponents of pure free trade. But those in the majority do not deny nations’ annual trade deficits indicate those nation’s spending for products had exceeded the values of their entire productions.
Can you provide a quote by someone YOU contend is a credible economist that effectively refutes that? What about other readers of this thread?
... By the way, manufacturing is only around 10% of the labor force today. The idea that we should basically trash the global economy to put a handful of Americans back to work is a tiny bit ludicrous.

This thread's about trade deficits and is not limited to manufactured goods. I'm a proponent of USA adopting the policy described within Wikipedia's "Import Certificates" article.
Refer to Import certificates - Wikipedia
(Import certificate policy is not limited to manufactured goods, but it's inapplicable to services, or to other intangibles, or to values of specifically listed scarce or precious mineral materials integral to goods).

Respectfully, Supposn
 
Kushinator, we do or do not agree? The GDP expenditure formula is an accounting identity? Due to individual nations’ net balances of international trade, surplus trade nations’ GDPs exceeded, and trade deficit nations’ GDPs were less than their nation’s net spending for goods and service products?

Or do you contend otherwise? What’s the significance of the label? The attributes of "a rose by any other name" are not changed by renaming it. Respectfully, Supposn

How many times must I repeat myself? Imports count as consumption, and are subtracted to reflect domestic production. Imports do not reduce GDP.
 
I don't speak for him I merely agree with him. Now do you understand???

Name dropping will get you nowhere. Do you understand?
 
Visbek, most credible economists are proponents rather than opponents of pure free trade. But those in the majority do not deny nations’ annual trade deficits indicate those nation’s spending for products had exceeded the values of their entire productions.
What are you talking about?

A trade deficit is the imbalance between imports and exports. Are you suggesting that the US is in a situation where the deficit is larger than total domestic production? That doesn't even make sense. In 2018, the trade deficit was around $600 billion. Consumption was nearly $13 billion, and business investment $3.4 billion, and exports $2.5 trillion.

I find it hard to imagine a situation where a nation's trade deficit is larger than its total production. That certainly isn't the case in the US. Not even close.


This thread's about trade deficits and is not limited to manufactured goods. I'm a proponent of USA adopting the policy described within Wikipedia's "Import Certificates" article.
Yes, I'm pretty sure we've discussed that before. Again, any mechanism to try and "balance the trade deficit" is already headed in the wrong direction, because again... trade deficits are not harmful.
 
Visbek, the GDP expenditure method, (i.e. the conventional method) adds the values of a trade surplus nation’s to, or subtracts the values of trade deficit nation’s international balances of trade from their entire, (i.e. their consumers + investors + governments) net expenditures for goods and service products to determine their nation’s GDP.

USA’’s 2018 GDP was $20,580 billion. (Your figures are real value dollars of some unspecified year). Refer to US GDP by Year Compared to Recessions and Events

USA’’s 2018 trade deficit was $621.04 billion.
• U.S. trade balance 2018 | Statista

Those figures indicate 2018 USA net spending was in excess of $21,201 billion and exceeded our entire production of goods and services in that year.

Respectfully Supposn
 
1) Govt has no right to modulate trade given we are a free country.

This can either be taken to be a moral or a legal question neither of which is the primary subject matter.

2) GDP grew from Stone age to here not because of trade modulation but because of new inventions and free trade.

And at least some humans survived disease in spite of medical ignorance. Even if you believe the results were good, it does not follow that they cannot be improved upon.

Now, do you understand?
 
This can either be taken to be a moral or a legal question neither of which is the primary subject matter.

Even if you believe the results were good, it does not follow that they cannot be improved upon.

do you mean results of inventions and free trade???? IF so they can be improve on with more inventions and more free trade. Make sense??
 
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