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Constitutional terms, do they have meaning, do they have weight?

So what would be examples of either?

Even hypothetical polities ?

General powers are what Congress has to provide for the general welfare. That power is general and must cover any contingency, since we do not have Perfect Knowledge.

Common powers are subject to the common law and civil Concerns.
 
the States and the People are supposed to be a check and balance via our Tenth and Ninth Amendments.

Except the 10th Amendment is reactive in nature. Meaning it allows a state/people to say Sorry Charlie to the federal government about a specific offense. It addresses symptoms rather than the problem itself.

In today's political status quo the 10th is next to meaningless because we're living in a state of institutionalized corruption via Supreme Court rulings, where state politicians and federal politicians have now metastasized into a single body. And because of the "noise" created by our information environment, forever dosed with media bias, we will never get the tipping-point required for a single subject to make government act in our interests.

But we may get a tipping-point for the primary constitutional check on both federal and state government, the Article V Convention. That's the issue upon which every other issue rests. If we get a tipping-point of Americans to become cognizant that a) it exists at all and b) that it's not dangerous, we'll have one. The principle of a tipping-point means it's a mechanistic/materialistic inevitability once enough know.
 
That is a nice romantic view. I fervently hope it will someday become reality.

Just last night I watched part 2 of a series by Oliver Stone, entitled something like The Unofficial History of the US. Among other things regarding WWII, it covered with much old black and white films from the event, the Democratic Convention of 1944, in which political power brokers within the party derailed the desires of the vast majority of the delegates to the convention to again make Henry Wallace the VP with FDR, as had been for his other terms. Wallace, an advocate for the working class, was extremely popular in this country and others, and among all the delegates. But he was most unpopular with the leaders of industry and the war profiteers. The power brokers inserted and nominated Harry Truman, and likely you know the rest of the story.

That was repeated just 4 years ago when the DNC put Hillary up instead of Bernie.

So, really I do want you to be right, but at age 72 I've seen nothing to suggest you are right. The Kelo decision and the Americans United decision clearly demonstrate that the judiciary are as controlled by the oligarchy as the other 2 branches.

In regards to the 1940s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s and 10s, political conventions on the one had, and the Article V Convention on the other, is apples and oranges. A political party convention operates on different socio-political and legal dynamics. A non-binding proposing convention is different from one meant to make a final nomination before adjourning. A proposing convention just makes suggestions and goes home.

Plus, take a look at the calendar. The Article V Convention held today would be en entirely different affair than any Repu/Dem charade of past decades. Yes, we know all state and federal government has metastasized into a single organism of institutional corruption. And Yes, it is intuitive to conclude a federal convention of the states would A) ever be allowed by the establishment to begin with, and B) not be corrupted if it ever did take place.

A) In 2010, during the 110th Congress, the Tea Party Congress read the Constitution first day from the floor of the House. Before reading, sponsor Goodlatte from Virginia noted that because the Constitution had been amended, members would be reading what the Congressional Research Service deemed valid. They skipped over the convention clause of Article V, did not read it. Then in 2012 the CRS issued a two-part white paper all about the Article V Convention. So how is it that the CRS is at once telling members of Congress not to read the convention clause, and two years later writing a paper all about it? That paper has been updated multiple times, most recently 2017: http://www.foavc.org/reference/R44435_20171115.pdf

That paper spawned a rule which has the House now officially counting state applications and posting them as PDFs on the website of the Office of the Clerk of the U.S. House of Representatives. And over the past five years there have been multiple mainstream articles from WJS, NYT, Forbes and others.

In addition to that, over the past ten years, in the comment section to blogs and op-eds focused on the Article V Convention, it's gone from roughly 75% against a convention, to today where it's roughly 75% for a convention.

In other words, if get a tipping-point of Americans to become cognizant that a) a non-binding deliberative assembly exists at all and b) that it's not dangerous, we'll have one. The principle of a tipping-point means it's a mechanistic/materialistic inevitability once enough humans know.

B) As mentioned above, political nominating conventions are not amendment proposing conventions. The legal requirement of 75%+ approval before any changes are made is a political principle which mathematically precludes partisan/wedge issue nonsense from ever becoming high law. Conservative or Liberal a proposal must get all one side of the political spectrum signed on, plus at least half the other, or it goes where 10,000+ other proposed amendments have gone--the dustbin of history. In other words, there is noting to fear and everything to gain for the people, and nothing to gain and everything to lose for corporate interests.

You say you're 72, I'm 55, and so I know how energy reserves begin to deplete. Congratulations for carrying on this long. The good news is, if you think all the Americans alive today deserve to formally discuss their collective situation, all you have to do is educate yourself about a few things you're probably unaware of and/or don't have the proper rebuttals for, and simply start sharing the idea with other adults. "Hey, you hate Trump? Well, he's only in office because of a corrupted symptom. Some people who are saying it's time for a federal convention.... etc., etc., etc."

How many people could you tip off to the Article V Convention this year? Is there anything you're unclear about?
 
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General powers are what Congress has to provide for the general welfare. That power is general and must cover any contingency, since we do not have Perfect Knowledge.

Common powers are subject to the common law and civil Concerns.

Prove you actually know what that means

Give me a hypothetical policy what you would class as "common"
Then give me a hypothetical policy that you would class "general"
Then explain why they fall into that category.
 
You need me to show you how what Rich2018 said was correct? You appeared to be arguing 5/4 or split rulings are normal. They're not, they're symptom to a corrupt flim-flam. You appeared to condone it. I didn't know I was making an argument, I thought I interjecting the truth of what M v. M did and still does.

You appeared to be arguing 5/4 or split rulings are normal.

Appeared? To who, you? Well, your eyes have deceived you.

I’ve NEVER taken the view 5-4 decisions are “normal.” I very much doubt such a claim of “normal” can logically be defended given the ostensible subjectivity of the word “normal.”

I have no idea what is or isn’t normative in terms of the number of justices in a majority/dissent.

I never discussed what is a normative voting pattern for SCOTUS.

Instead, I gave an explanation for why they occur but offering an explanation for a phenomenon is different from asserting the phenomenon is normal.

Address the words I used and their meaning, as opposed to what you want to read of my argument.

You appeared to condone it.
Never did. Never came close to doing so. How you could so brutally misconstrue the simplicity of my position is an enigma.

I thought I interjecting the truth of what M v. M did and still does.

Claiming truth doesn’t establish truth. If it were that simple, then the earth is truly flat because the modern day Flat Earth Society says it is true.

You made a claim of truth about Marbury v. Madison “established” something in particular. You’ve not shown your claim true by any evidence, such quoting to the opinion itself and arguing how and why it supports your claim.



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You made a claim of truth about Marbury v. Madison “established” something in particular. You’ve not shown your claim true by any evidence....

I apologize for not reading your replies more closely to best determine your actual position on the USSC. If you can't allow that particular claim about the effect of M v M to advance without question, then we should allow this exchange to die. Perhaps we will engage on another point of contention at another time.
 
I apologize for not reading your replies more closely to best determine your actual position on the USSC. If you can't allow that particular claim about the effect of M v M to advance without question, then we should allow this exchange to die. Perhaps we will engage on another point of contention at another time.

Allow it? I question everything man. I do not begin from a default position of what the person said is true, accept it and move on.

I begin with the view of what anyone has written or said may be false, and they’re gonna have to establish the veracity of their claims with evidence and/or logical argument.

Especially since, being intimately familiar with the opinion of Marbury v Madison, I’m am very much incredulous towards your claim the opinion “ESTABLISHED” what you claimed. The opinion certainly established A.) power of the judiciary to ascertain what the words in the constitution meant, B.) power to evaluate the constitutionality of the actions by the two other branches of government, C.) declare the action of another branch of government as unconstitutional and D.) declare laws as unconstitutional.

I do not see anywhere in the opinion any language, phrase, paragraphs, where what you allege is “established” by the opinion itself.

So me where.


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No, the fact you’ve committed a nonsequitur, and are called out for it...

How is it a fallacy to say that a 5:4 split in opinion shows that the Constitution wasn't written clear enough.
This isn't a translation of metaphorical poetry, it's an interpretation of the meaning behind a law written in the late 18th century to be read and clearly understood.

Do you think the framers wrote clauses of the Constitution to be deliberately vague so that future generations could make their own mind up - like some open ended Hollywood movie?


Not only is this speculative, such a remark isn’t based in reality....

No, it's based on laws passed this century that have no wiggle room. Not speculation.


Except your asinine notion they wouldn’t depart from the unambiguous meaning is problematic. What is more troublesome is ostensibly you cannot grasp the fact the meaning, although ambiguous, has been ignored before.

That others have had an equally diverse interpretation of the Constitution in the past, is hardly a recommendation as to its value as a law or set of laws.

Why is an assumption that the framers (by which I assume you mean by "they") wouldn't "depart from the unambiguous meaning" problematic in any way. What is "asinine" is an assumption that they would.
The framers were writing law and not just any law but the highest law in the land. The numer 1 objective when writing law is to get the meaning across. If two learned people can read the same law and come up with polar opposites in interpretation, what is the point of having the law. ?
A law should be fixed, not variable.
 
What do certain terms used in the Constitution mean, and do they have any weight in today's jurisprudence?

For example: Congress shall make no law...

...Shall not be violated...

No person shall be held to answer

In all criminal prosecutions the right of trial by jury shall be preserved

Excessive bail shall not be required

Do any of these terms carry any weight in today's legal proceedings?

Not anymore.
 
I question everything man.... Especially since, being intimately familiar with the opinion of Marbury v Madison, I’m am very much incredulous towards your claim the opinion “ESTABLISHED” what you claimed. The opinion certainly established A.) power of the judiciary to ascertain what the words in the constitution meant, B.) power to evaluate the constitutionality of the actions by the two other branches of government, C.) declare the action of another branch of government as unconstitutional and D.) declare laws as unconstitutional.

I do absolutely appreciate your attitude, and registering it, I shall be more careful in tossing around opinion without being ready to back it up as to fact and law. I may read M v M today as a result. Drop in to the Article V thread if you get a chance. All Alohas
 
Would you like to see an end to a presidential style of government to a parliamentary style with the Speaker of the House being a sort of prime minister and the head of the government ?


That would ensure that the head of the government always has some majority support ?


The president would be relegated to being a symbolic head of state.


That is the proposal of this web page:


The U.S. Needs a New Constitution—Here's How to Write It - The Atlantic
 
Would you like to see an end to a presidential style of government to a parliamentary style with the Speaker of the House being a sort of prime minister and the head of the government ?


That would ensure that the head of the government always has some majority support ?


The president would be relegated to being a symbolic head of state.


That is the proposal of this web page:


The U.S. Needs a New Constitution—Here's How to Write It - The Atlantic


Full disclosure, over the past fifteen years I've worked with Sandy Levinson, Larry Lessig, in person, and rebuked Nick Dranias multiple times. All three mentioned/quoted in your article.

What Anti-Conventionists fail to take into account/comprehend, is that the Article V Convention is a two-part process: proposal and ratification. You hide behind the notion that once convoked the nation is going to silently look on while state delegates draft and ratify a new high law. That is tantamount to believing there are monsters under your bed. Even if a federal convention did embark upon drafting a new constitution, there is no possible way 1) that Congress would forward it to the states, or 2) that 38 state legislatures from across a huge regionalized nation would ever ratify it. There have been over 10,000+ proposed amendments to the Constitution over the years, and a couple of dozen plus ratified. Your fears have no basis in reality.

"The most important thing a convention would do is to simply jump-start and conduct a national conversation that we're not having," Levinson says.
 
Prove you actually know what that means

Give me a hypothetical policy what you would class as "common"
Then give me a hypothetical policy that you would class "general"
Then explain why they fall into that category.

lol. i only need to prove you are incompetent in open court.
 
In regards to the 1940s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s and 10s, political conventions on the one had, and the Article V Convention on the other, is apples and oranges. A political party convention operates on different socio-political and legal dynamics. A non-binding proposing convention is different from one meant to make a final nomination before adjourning. A proposing convention just makes suggestions and goes home.

Plus, take a look at the calendar. The Article V Convention held today would be en entirely different affair than any Repu/Dem charade of past decades. Yes, we know all state and federal government has metastasized into a single organism of institutional corruption. And Yes, it is intuitive to conclude a federal convention of the states would A) ever be allowed by the establishment to begin with, and B) not be corrupted if it ever did take place.

A) In 2010, during the 110th Congress, the Tea Party Congress read the Constitution first day from the floor of the House. Before reading, sponsor Goodlatte from Virginia noted that because the Constitution had been amended, members would be reading what the Congressional Research Service deemed valid. They skipped over the convention clause of Article V, did not read it. Then in 2012 the CRS issued a two-part white paper all about the Article V Convention. So how is it that the CRS is at once telling members of Congress not to read the convention clause, and two years later writing a paper all about it? That paper has been updated multiple times, most recently 2017: http://www.foavc.org/reference/R44435_20171115.pdf

That paper spawned a rule which has the House now officially counting state applications and posting them as PDFs on the website of the Office of the Clerk of the U.S. House of Representatives. And over the past five years there have been multiple mainstream articles from WJS, NYT, Forbes and others.

In addition to that, over the past ten years, in the comment section to blogs and op-eds focused on the Article V Convention, it's gone from roughly 75% against a convention, to today where it's roughly 75% for a convention.

In other words, if get a tipping-point of Americans to become cognizant that a) a non-binding deliberative assembly exists at all and b) that it's not dangerous, we'll have one. The principle of a tipping-point means it's a mechanistic/materialistic inevitability once enough humans know.

B) As mentioned above, political nominating conventions are not amendment proposing conventions. The legal requirement of 75%+ approval before any changes are made is a political principle which mathematically precludes partisan/wedge issue nonsense from ever becoming high law. Conservative or Liberal a proposal must get all one side of the political spectrum signed on, plus at least half the other, or it goes where 10,000+ other proposed amendments have gone--the dustbin of history. In other words, there is noting to fear and everything to gain for the people, and nothing to gain and everything to lose for corporate interests.

You say you're 72, I'm 55, and so I know how energy reserves begin to deplete. Congratulations for carrying on this long. The good news is, if you think all the Americans alive today deserve to formally discuss their collective situation, all you have to do is educate yourself about a few things you're probably unaware of and/or don't have the proper rebuttals for, and simply start sharing the idea with other adults. "Hey, you hate Trump? Well, he's only in office because of a corrupted symptom. Some people who are saying it's time for a federal convention.... etc., etc., etc."

How many people could you tip off to the Article V Convention this year? Is there anything you're unclear about?

That's all well and good, and nothing to argue about from me.

Now, if you could offer some examples of how and when the government has been responsive in significant ways to the wishes of the people we would have something to discuss.

If you could offer some examples of how and when the government has governed in accordance with constitutional restrictions, we would have something to discuss.
 
That's all well and good, and nothing to argue about from me.

Now, if you could offer some examples of how and when the government has been responsive in significant ways to the wishes of the people we would have something to discuss.

If you could offer some examples of how and when the government has governed in accordance with constitutional restrictions, we would have something to discuss.

I thought I just did: the CRS was instructing Congress to ignore the convention clause and less than two years later issued a white paper all about it, even saying in the frontispiece that if enough want it they'll have to call it.

Prohibition and repeal of amendment is maybe the most explicit example, but significance doesn't always have to be explicit. The fact that we're still here with politicians swearing up and down the Constitution must be obeyed, even though working to subvert it, indicates the government cannot do away with it, but only attempt to distort it.
 
I thought I just did: the CRS was instructing Congress to ignore the convention clause and less than two years later issued a white paper all about it, even saying in the frontispiece that if enough want it they'll have to call it.

Prohibition and repeal of amendment is maybe the most explicit example, but significance doesn't always have to be explicit. The fact that we're still here with politicians swearing up and down the Constitution must be obeyed, even though working to subvert it, indicates the government cannot do away with it, but only attempt to distort it.

And they have been extremely successful at distorting it. I must run at this moment, but the AUMF is an excellent example of the government distorting (a weak word) the document.

The USA Patriot Act with its glorious name, and the various NDAA amendments repeating, are specific examples of the domestic enemies of the document succeeding in its destruction.
 
And they have been extremely successful at distorting it. I must run at this moment, but the AUMF is an excellent example of the government distorting (a weak word) the document.

The USA Patriot Act with its glorious name, and the various NDAA amendments repeating, are specific examples of the domestic enemies of the document succeeding in its destruction.

The USA Patriot Act is a good example. When it was passed (more like dumped), guys like me, our hair was on fire. We were like, "Are you ****ing kidding me? It's over. The facists won."

But look what's happened since: stuff like the Tea Party and Occupy, where the powers that be had to manage lots of people pissed off. If the fascists could have locked the whole thing down, why haven't they? It's because they can't, because we're a huge regionalized nation with a Second Amendment.

Reminder: you are a human in a society that actually is something new under the Sun, a republic with a written Constitution, and what you say and do politically is not only noticed, it matters. You should be the kindly old grandpa who advocates for a convention. If not, I'd be interested to know why.
 
Full disclosure, over the past fifteen years I've worked with Sandy Levinson, Larry Lessig, in person, and rebuked Nick Dranias multiple times. All three mentioned/quoted in your article.

What Anti-Conventionists fail to take into account/comprehend, is that the Article V Convention is a two-part process: proposal and ratification. You hide behind the notion that once convoked the nation is going to silently look on while state delegates draft and ratify a new high law. That is tantamount to believing there are monsters under your bed. Even if a federal convention did embark upon drafting a new constitution, there is no possible way 1) that Congress would forward it to the states, or 2) that 38 state legislatures from across a huge regionalized nation would ever ratify it. There have been over 10,000+ proposed amendments to the Constitution over the years, and a couple of dozen plus ratified. Your fears have no basis in reality.

"The most important thing a convention would do is to simply jump-start and conduct a national conversation that we're not having," Levinson says.

OK, an Article V Convention may still require separate votes in the legislatures of every state until at least 75% of them have ratified it.
 
lol. i only need to prove you are incompetent in open court.

Good luck with that...I am incompetent at a lot of things - cooking is one.

But I don't post recipes on-line.

In the meantime you keep posting about clauses being "common" or "general" without knowing what that means.

Are you unable to cite a law or policy in the last 100 years and say if it's common or general and way ?
 
OK, an Article V Convention may still require separate votes in the legislatures of every state until at least 75% of them have ratified it.

Article V mandates Congress choose the mode of ratification: either by legislative vote in each state, or state ratifying conventions in each state. (If a convention is so dangerous, why did the Framers place two types in the high law?)

75%+ is a political principle which means that whatever a delegate or member of Congress proposes as an amendment, it must get all one side of the political spectrum signed on, plus at least half of the other, or it goes to the dustbin of history. 75%+ mathematically precludes partisan nonsense or scary ideas from ever becoming law.
 
Article V mandates Congress choose the mode of ratification: either by legislative vote in each state, or state ratifying conventions in each state. (If a convention is so dangerous, why did the Framers place two types in the high law?)

75%+ is a political principle which means that whatever a delegate or member of Congress proposes as an amendment, it must get all one side of the political spectrum signed on, plus at least half of the other, or it goes to the dustbin of history. 75%+ mathematically precludes partisan nonsense or scary ideas from ever becoming law.

OK, but an Article V Convention could propose an entirely new Constitution, right ?
 
Good luck with that...I am incompetent at a lot of things - cooking is one.

But I don't post recipes on-line.

In the meantime you keep posting about clauses being "common" or "general" without knowing what that means.

Are you unable to cite a law or policy in the last 100 years and say if it's common or general and way ?

i am right simply Because i say so; you appeal to ignorance all the time.
 
OK, but an Article V Convention could propose an entirely new Constitution, right ?

No sir it cannot. Not only because the language of Article V forbids it, but because of practical politics: if Congress called the convention today, and we're going to assemble human beings like you and me, and those human beings are going to stand up in front of the nation and start calling for a new Constitution? The Constitution is sacred to 90% of Americans, and that delegate would have a rough time of it the next day at Starbucks.

Very few Americans want to abolish the Constitution, but many would like to alter how the Congress operates. The Article V Convention is the only way to formally discuss Congress outside of Congress. Congress with will not or cannot discuss Congress.
 
Full disclosure, over the past fifteen years I've worked with Sandy Levinson, Larry Lessig, in person, and rebuked Nick Dranias multiple times. All three mentioned/quoted in your article.

What Anti-Conventionists fail to take into account/comprehend, is that the Article V Convention is a two-part process: proposal and ratification. You hide behind the notion that once convoked the nation is going to silently look on while state delegates draft and ratify a new high law. That is tantamount to believing there are monsters under your bed. Even if a federal convention did embark upon drafting a new constitution, there is no possible way 1) that Congress would forward it to the states, or 2) that 38 state legislatures from across a huge regionalized nation would ever ratify it. There have been over 10,000+ proposed amendments to the Constitution over the years, and a couple of dozen plus ratified. Your fears have no basis in reality.

"The most important thing a convention would do is to simply jump-start and conduct a national conversation that we're not having," Levinson says.

Tell us more about this process and how a small handful of billionaires will never be able to manufacture consent.
Not snark, I am just suspicious about loopholes in the system after watching the impeachment proceedings.
Trump has actually PAID OFF senators, and he's going to get away with it.
 
No sir it cannot. Not only because the language of Article V forbids it, but because of practical politics: if Congress called the convention today, and we're going to assemble human beings like you and me, and those human beings are going to stand up in front of the nation and start calling for a new Constitution? The Constitution is sacred to 90% of Americans, and that delegate would have a rough time of it the next day at Starbucks.

Very few Americans want to abolish the Constitution, but many would like to alter how the Congress operates. The Article V Convention is the only way to formally discuss Congress outside of Congress. Congress with will not or cannot discuss Congress.

"The arguments against a convention of states are often ahistorical, relying on mistakenly glorified notions of the 1787 Constitutional Convention. An editorial in The Washington Post last April was typical, suggesting that, while the original convention “turned out pretty well,” a new one might meet with “far more doleful results.” The editors were particularly worried that the Constitution’s requirement of support from threequarters of the states to ratify any amendment might itself be tossed aside in a convention. It wasn’t altogether implausible, the paper observed: “The 1787 constitutional convention ditched preexisting ratification rules; who is to say a 2018 convention could not?”..."


The US Constitution Is Over 2 Centuries Old and Showing Its Age | The Nation


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