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Constitutional carry now in effect in Oklahoma.

Yeah that is true-which is why some of the faux gun rights supporters who claim that the democrats don't want to ban guns-are in error.

Democrats don't want to ban guns right now. There isn't sufficient political pressure from the public to do so. That's not to say that they won't in the future in the wake of a national tragedy when banning guns becomes politically advantageous for them. If that happens, unrestricted concealed carry will be a convenient foothold upon which to build an anti-gun violence political campaign. If there is enough public support, such a campaign can get the laws changed. Hopefully, once they did away with unrestricted concealed carry they would stop at shall-issue concealed carry, but I wouldn't bet my rights on it.
 
My bold

Also it is a LOT easier to make/smuggle alcohol or drugs than guns.

The ease with which a law can be broken is not relevant to whether it is a just law. Whether it's realistic or not, if all drinkable alcohol could be completely removed from society, would you be in favor of doing so? Should your neighbors not trust you to be capable of safely drinking a beer in your own home?
 
The ease with which a law can be broken is not relevant to whether it is a just law...

No-one ever said it was


....if all drinkable alcohol could be completely removed from society, would you be in favor of doing so?

This would be a pain for me but yes I would be in favor


Should your neighbors not trust you to be capable of safely drinking a beer in your own home?


No they shouldn't, they should inform on me

Like I would hope that they'd rat out a neighbor who kept an illegal gun following a hypothetical ban.
 
No-one ever said it was

This would be a pain for me but yes I would be in favor

No they shouldn't, they should inform on me

Like I would hope that they'd rat out a neighbor who kept an illegal gun following a hypothetical ban.

While I disagree with your position, I admire your honesty in not side-stepping the implications.

Personally, I do not feel that I have the authority to forcibly police your drinking habits on the very small chance that you might drink and drive and kill me or someone I care about. And since I have an even smaller chance of being shot by my armed neighbor, neither can I assume the authority to forcibly prevent him from owning a firearm.
 
While I disagree with your position, I admire your honesty in not side-stepping the implications.

Personally, I do not feel that I have the authority to forcibly police your drinking habits on the very small chance that you might drink and drive and kill me or someone I care about. And since I have an even smaller chance of being shot by my armed neighbor, neither can I assume the authority to forcibly prevent him from owning a firearm.

I remember a social studies class I had to take at college - the lecturer said the two most dangerous drugs in the UK were alcohol and nicotine. He wasn't wrong.

Actually use of phones in cars has been proven to be more dangerous than alcohol.
 
I remember a social studies class I had to take at college - the lecturer said the two most dangerous drugs in the UK were alcohol and nicotine. He wasn't wrong.

Actually use of phones in cars has been proven to be more dangerous than alcohol.

Anything can be misused to cause harm to oneself or others. How prone to misuse must something be before we collectively decide that no one can be trusted with it?

I err on the side of freedom with questions like these, hence my identification as a libertarian. While I wouldn't trust my neighbor with a nuclear bomb, there are very few other things that I am comfortable saying even law abiding adults of sound mind and sufficient training should not have the freedom to own and use in a safe manner. In most circumstances, my authority to dictate how they live their lives ends at making sure they have insurance and can be held criminally liable for the misuse of their property.
 
Anything can be misused to cause harm to oneself or others. How prone to misuse must something be before we collectively decide that no one can be trusted with it?

It also requires public support

Prohibition proved you can't ban something without majority public approval



I err on the side of freedom with questions like these, hence my identification as a libertarian. While I wouldn't trust my neighbor with a nuclear bomb, there are very few other things that I am comfortable saying even law abiding adults of sound mind and sufficient training should not have the freedom to own and use in a safe manner. In most circumstances, my authority to dictate how they live their lives ends at making sure they have insurance and can be held criminally liable for the misuse of their property.


How can you be sure of safe use in the future ?


How can you ban one (legally authorized) person from having something but not another.
 
It also requires public support

Prohibition proved you can't ban something without majority public approval

Most second amendment advocates would say public support is irrelevant when it comes to constitutional rights. I don't think it should be relevant, but I admit that it is. That's why I fear completely unrestricted concealed carry, as I can easily imagine a tragedy sparking enough public support to do away with unregulated concealed carry, and probably more if our penchant for legislative over-correction is any indicator. Speaking of which, if you vape, I suggest you stock up on flavored oils...

How can you be sure of safe use in the future?

I can't, but I don't need to be. It is not my job to make sure my neighbor doesn't injure or kill people, it's his. Only if he fails to ensure this should society have the authority to deem him untrustworthy and take away his right to own and operate dangerous things. And even if one or a few people are incapable of safely operating something without harming others, I look at whether the majority is able to do so before I would even consider presuming that no one is.

How can you ban one (legally authorized) person from having something but not another.

If you ban someone from having something, then they are no longer legally authorized to have it. And we do this all the time. Committing a crime with a firearm renders you no longer able to legally own a firearm.
 
Most second amendment advocates would say public support is irrelevant when it comes to constitutional rights. I don't think it should be relevant, but I admit that it is. That's why I fear completely unrestricted concealed carry, as I can easily imagine a tragedy sparking enough public support to do away with unregulated concealed carry, and probably more if our penchant for legislative over-correction is any indicator. Speaking of which, if you vape, I suggest you stock up on flavored oils...

Democracy means the minority get their say but the majority get their way.

So if the people vote for a government that declares gun ownership a bad thing and makes it illegal, then it is no longer a right lost.

The government have a mandate to do such a thing

The continued existence of the 2nd amendment is absolutely dependent on public support.
Because of the way the Constitution works, this majority has to be a significant one and not a fickle 50% +1 that would change a constitutional clause on a whim.


I can't, but I don't need to be. It is not my job to make sure my neighbor doesn't injure or kill people, it's his....

It might well be his but it's also ours.

If your neighbor decides to kill as many people as possible tomorrow, do we wait until he's actually broken the law ?

If you say yes, then we part ways.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Take away his guns (and sadly everyone else's) and he may wish to kill as many people as he can tomorrow, but he lacks to means to do it.
(yes, he can always use a car to ram a crowd but the European experience is that is largely confined to terrorism and is fairly rare)


If you ban someone from having something, then they are no longer legally authorized to have it. And we do this all the time. Committing a crime with a firearm renders you no longer able to legally own a firearm.

Yet gun owners often dismiss homicides with a gun as largely convicted felon on convicted felon...the very group would it would seem, need defense the most.
 
Democracy means the minority get their say but the majority get their way.

So if the people vote for a government that declares gun ownership a bad thing and makes it illegal, then it is no longer a right lost.

The government have a mandate to do such a thing

The continued existence of the 2nd amendment is absolutely dependent on public support.
Because of the way the Constitution works, this majority has to be a significant one and not a fickle 50% +1 that would change a constitutional clause on a whim.

You're right. This is the way it works. The relevant question is: Should we change the constitution? As a libertarian, with a personal understanding that the constitution was meant to be a libertarian document, I don't think we should in this case. I do think, however, that it should be interpreted with common sense, and that appropriate regulation to balance personal freedom with personal security is warranted.

Outlawing firearms would be unbalanced. It would punish a hundred million law abiding citizens for the crimes of thousands. This is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

It might well be his but it's also ours.

If your neighbor decides to kill as many people as possible tomorrow, do we wait until he's actually broken the law ?

If you say yes, then we part ways.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

No, if I found out that my neighbor was going to kill as many people as possible tomorrow, I would not wait until he's actually broken the law. I would be in favor of physically preventing him from accessing a firearm. And if he said he was going to do it with his car, I would be in favor of physically preventing him from accessing his car as well, in both cases by arresting him for making terroristic threats. I would not then deem the car or the firearm too dangerous for anyone else to own solely because of his plan to misuse them.

But what if there is no evidence that he has decided to kill as many people as possible? Taking away his ability to kill as many people as possible with a firearm because there is a 1 in 40,000 chance that he might decide to kill someone is irrational and a clear example of legislative overreach. Not unlike outlawing alcohol and violent movies and video games.

Take away his guns (and sadly everyone else's) and he may wish to kill as many people as he can tomorrow, but he lacks to means to do it.
(yes, he can always use a car to ram a crowd but the European experience is that is largely confined to terrorism and is fairly rare)

Hardly. Killing large numbers of people is terrifyingly easy in America even without firearms. Guns are nowhere near the most effective way to kill large numbers of people, they're just the most common because they are readily available. In fact, they are one of the most inefficient ways if one's goal is not to get caught. A properly placed poison could dwarf the number of casualties of any mass shooting, and the poisoner would stand a far better chance of getting away with it than a mass shooter would.

It is a myth that if there were no guns, then the number of homicides, especially mass homicides, would be reduced by the number of current gun homicides per year. Humans kill each other by whatever means we can. No matter how many weapons you remove from circulation, a new tool or weapon will then become the most common means of committing homicide. Then you'll have to ban that one to, ad infinitum.
 
You're right. This is the way it works. The relevant question is: Should we change the constitution? As a libertarian, with a personal understanding that the constitution was meant to be a libertarian document, I don't think we should in this case. I do think, however, that it should be interpreted with common sense, and that appropriate regulation to balance personal freedom with personal security is warranted.

Outlawing firearms would be unbalanced. It would punish a hundred million law abiding citizens for the crimes of thousands. This is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

The Draconian UK gun laws don't outlaw all guns just most types.

I think if the USA adopted similar gun controls, the USA would soon see a significant drop in gun deaths and mass shootings.



....if I found out that my neighbor was going to kill as many people as possible tomorrow, I would not wait until he's actually broken the law....

But the trouble is the movie "Minority Report" is fiction and in reality, we don't know a mass shooters identity until after he begins his (or their) attack.


...I would not then deem the car or the firearm too dangerous for anyone else to own solely because of his plan to misuse them.

If he can, others can and ONE mass shooting is too many



But what if there is no evidence that he has decided to kill as many people as possible? Taking away his ability to kill as many people as possible with a firearm because there is a 1 in 40,000 chance that he might decide to kill someone is irrational...

No its not, it is the basis of every gun control law ever written.



...killing large numbers of people is terrifyingly easy in America even without firearms. Guns are nowhere near the most effective way to kill large numbers of people, they're just the most common because they are readily available. In fact, they are one of the most inefficient ways if one's goal is not to get caught. A properly placed poison could dwarf the number of casualties of any mass shooting, and the poisoner would stand a far better chance of getting away with it than a mass shooter would....

What poisons do you mean ?
And if they're not banned already and were used in a mass attack that killed many people, they would be


For some reason mass shootings happened in the USA at over one per day but mass poisonings didn't. Why do you think that is ?


It is a myth that if there were no guns, then the number of homicides, especially mass homicides, would be reduced by the number of current gun homicides per year. Humans kill each other by whatever means we can. No matter how many weapons you remove from circulation, a new tool or weapon will then become the most common means of committing homicide. Then you'll have to ban that one to,ad infinitum.


The people of the UK enjoy their mythical absence of mass shootings (one since the last gun control legislation in 1997) and their mythical lower gun murder rate thaN the USA.
 
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The Draconian UK gun laws don't outlaw all guns just most types.

I think if the USA adopted similar gun controls, the USA would soon see a significant drop in gun deaths and mass shootings.





But the trouble is the movie "Minority Report" is fiction and in reality, we don't know a mass shooters identity until after he begins his (or their) attack.




If he can, others can and ONE mass shooting is too many





No its not, it is the basis of every gun control law ever written.





What poisons do you mean ?
And if they're not banned already and were used in a mass attack that killed many people, they would be


For some reason mass shootings happened in the USA at over one per day but mass poisonings didn't. Why do you think that is ?





The people of the UK enjoy their mythical absence of mass shootings (one since the last gun control legislation in 1997) and their mythical lower gun murder rate thaN the USA.

What was used by the Church shooter?
 
That has some merit. People who pack concealed should be trained. The problem is-anti gun activists want harassment not training. My son got his CCW at 21....

Aren't you worried that your state's CCW database could be hacked and your details posted on-line.

Also are you suggesting that someone open carrying doesn't need training ?


Why would a gun banner want to waste effort making you take training on something they don't think you should have?
 
Aren't you worried that your state's CCW database could be hacked and your details posted on-line.

Also are you suggesting that someone open carrying doesn't need training ?


Why would a gun banner want to waste effort making you take training on something they don't think you should have?

yeah I suppose that could happen and then the state would be liable for all sorts of damages. But a registration list is far more pernicious. A CCW permit data base is not something that tells crooks what you might own

gun banners are well known trying to impose obstacles on legal gun owners.
 
So the reason to oppose a national gun registry is not because of a fear of it being hacked ?

you want to ban guns

everyone who wants to ban guns supports registration

why would anyone who opposes a gun ban support something as stupid as registration?
 
you want to ban guns

everyone who wants to ban guns supports registration

why would anyone who opposes a gun ban support something as stupid as registration?

Anyone who is pro-2nd amendment sees that registration is a scam by anti-2nd amendment trash to aid in future confiscations.
 
It would assist law enforcement with resolving crime.

speculative crap that has not proven true in Hawaii, or Canada.

You're a gun banner. You admit constantly you want to ban guns. You want registration. That alone is a strong argument why anyone opposing gun bans should oppose registration
 
speculative crap that has not proven true in Hawaii, or Canada...

How do you know ?

Why wouldn't a mandatory gun register not help law enforcement ?


You're a gun banner. You admit constantly you want to ban guns. You want registration. That alone is a strong argument why anyone opposing gun bans should oppose registration


But you keep saying guns will never be banned in the USA and that the 20nd amendment will never be repealed

So why all the fear of a registry ?
 
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