Constitutional carry now in effect in Oklahoma.

[Rich2018]

...all of your claims are essentially faith based

Nope not one

Do you take annual US gun deaths/injury stats on faith or would you like more proof ?



Not much or a comeback by way of reasoned argument was that response ?

 

[TurtleDude]

The freedom to own guns.


Btw, a recent news report stated that a majority of Americans opposed the 1st amendment's permission of hate speech.

that's why we have a constitution, because the masses are often wrong

 

[TurtleDude]

Nope not one

Do you take annual US gun deaths/injury stats on faith or would you like more proof ?



Not much or a comeback by way of reasoned argument was that response ?

having been a prosecutor in some degree for thirty years, I think I know this issue far better than you, and there is no solid evidence that liberal gun ban schemes will make us safer.

 

[Rich2018]

that's why we have a constitution, because the masses are often wrong

Isn't that "tyranny" ?

A government denying the will of the "masses"

 

[Rich2018]

having been a prosecutor in some degree for thirty years...

Based on the standard of you posts, I somehow doubt that is true.

 

[lwf]

Out of interest, what is the gun control lobby's agenda - other than controlling gun/ammunition supply to various degrees ?

Exactly what you said.

 

[lwf]

I heard the same thing with the liberalization of CCW. and guess what-the facts generated from that helps our side

I agree that CCW facts and statistics help. I disagree that the potential headlines generated from no-permit carry will help. Rather, I think they have the potential to do more harm than good. Don't forget: the pro-second amendment side lost bump stocks by a landslide almost overnight after one was misused in a mass shooting. "Our side" didn't have a prayer once those headlines hit the airwaves. Anything that sounds "unnecessary" or "unwise" is in danger of being outlawed in the wake of a tragedy. Bump stocks were "unnecessary." Constitutional carry is "unwise."

 

[TurtleDude]

I agree that CCW facts and statistics help. I disagree that the potential headlines generated from no-permit carry will help. Rather, I think they have the potential to do more harm than good. Don't forget: the pro-second amendment side lost bump stocks by a landslide almost overnight after one was misused in a mass shooting. "Our side" didn't have a prayer once those headlines hit the airwaves. Anything that sounds "unnecessary" or "unwise" is in danger of being outlawed in the wake of a tragedy. Bump stocks were "unnecessary." Constitutional carry is "unwise."

bump stocks were only created due to the idiotic Hughes amendment. I suspect the bump stock ban will ultimately be overturned.

 

[lwf]

bump stocks were only created due to the idiotic Hughes amendment. I suspect the bump stock ban will ultimately be overturned.

It may. Unless there is another anti-second amendment push by the left that gets supercharged by a horrible tragedy. This may happen regardless, but allowing no permit carry runs the risk of making such a push that much more effective. Very few liberals will understand that American freedom requires untrained idiots to be able to legally carry a firearm on the subway. And maybe instead of simply instituting a national permit system, they decide to ban all firearms within the city limits of any heavily populated city? Over-correction is the hallmark of young legislators looking to make a name for themselves.

 

[Wayne Jr]

Yikes. I'm pro second amendment, but carrying a firearm in public without training of any kind is just asking for trouble. I foresee this as ultimately doing more harm to 2nd amendment rights in OK than good. The 2nd amendment is only as strong as it's dumbest adherent.

We have the 8hr class here in Ohio and it's a joke. Training is great but when you legally require it you lower the quality because instructors are more concerned with cranking out certificates in volume than giving you your money's worth. 1 class isn't going to make you a more responsible gun owner anyway.

 

[Wayne Jr]

Yes it is absolutely asking for trouble, because it will only take a few accidental shootings, or road rage incidents, for the hammer to come back down hard on second amendment rights. Crimes prevented by armed citizens are immaterial to those who want to abolish the second amendment. A rise in crimes committed by armed citizens are the death of gun rights. At least a permit system weeds out those who can't be trusted to carry.

1 class does not reduce negligent discharges or road rage in the first place tho. If you were careless before you took the class then you will be careless after the class. If you had a temper before the class then you will have a temper after the class.

 

[Wayne Jr]

as someone who grew up with firearms, i understand that encouraging untrained idiots to pack heat is like telling ten year olds that it's cool to take the Suburban for a spin on I-44. of course, i also know that this is the gun control subforum, and it's all or nothing here.

The only handgun class I've ever taken is the one for Ohio, and it was a joke. It didn't teach me a single thing about firearms. Yet, I have the permit. Am I still an 'untrained idiot'?

 

[Helix]

The only handgun class I've ever taken is the one for Ohio, and it was a joke. It didn't teach me a single thing about firearms. Yet, I have the permit. Am I still an 'untrained idiot'?

i don't recall accusing you of anything. as for your level of firearms expertise, i'll just have to take your word for it.

 

[Wayne Jr]

i don't recall accusing you of anything. as for your level of firearms expertise, i'll just have to take your word for it.

Your reply will not be taken as a personal attack. I am just an example of someone who has never taken a class on handguns. Am I one such 'untrained idiot'? Again, a reply in the affirmative is not a personal attack against me.

 

[Helix]

Your reply will not be taken as a personal attack. I am just an example of someone who has never taken a class on handguns. Am I one such 'untrained idiot'? Again, a reply in the affirmative is not a personal attack against me.

I have no idea about your level of skill. In my own experience with firearms, I have been around a lot of people who desperately needed education and oversight when it came to properly handling guns, though. Any honest gun enthusiast would admit the same. However, that category is in short supply lately.

 

[Wayne Jr]

I have no idea about your level of skill. In my own experience with firearms, I have been around a lot of people who desperately needed education and oversight when it came to properly handling guns, though. Any honest gun enthusiast would admit the same. However, that category is in short supply lately.

I can relate. I've been around plenty (not most) Army Soldiers who needed additional training when it came to properly handling firearms. And yet, these same veterans can use their discharge papers in place of a class. Those of your own disposition trust them.

Why?

 

[Helix]

I can relate. I've been around plenty (not most) Army Soldiers who needed additional training when it came to properly handling firearms. And yet, these same veterans can use their discharge papers in place of a class. Those of your own disposition trust them.

Why?

Because Army veterans are trained. A lot of backyard Rambos aren't. As a gun enthusiast, you already know this.

 

[Wayne Jr]

Because Army veterans are trained. A lot of backyard Rambos aren't. As a gun enthusiast, you already know this.

Ok but you argued that anyone without a permit was an 'untrained idiot'. That means that without a permit, I would be one such 'untrained idiot' despite my previous experience with firearms.

Logically your argument would extend to anyone who's been hunting since they were 12. Despite years of safe firearms handling, according to you an experienced hunter or sportsman is still an 'untrained idiots' simply because they don't have a special card in their wallet.

 

[Wayne Jr]

Because Army veterans are trained. A lot of backyard Rambos aren't. As a gun enthusiast, you already know this.

Also, I never used a handgun in the Army. Not even once. And the Army didn't teach me anything about civilian use-of-force, either. Yet my discharge papers exempt me from that class. Explain the reasoning behind this, please.

 

[Helix]

Ok but you argued that anyone without a permit was an 'untrained idiot'. That means that without a permit, I would be one such 'untrained idiot' despite my previous experience with firearms.

Logically your argument would extend to anyone who's been hunting since they were 12. Despite years of safe firearms handling, according to you an experienced hunter or sportsman is still an 'untrained idiots' simply because they don't have a special card in their wallet.

Not every backyard Rambo is an untrained idiot, but many of them are.

 

[Helix]

Also, I never used a handgun in the Army. Not even once. And the Army didn't teach me anything about civilian use-of-force, either. Yet my discharge papers exempt me from that class. Explain the reasoning behind this, please.

I only know about your level of expertise by what you tell me. If you feel that handgun training is necessary for your safety and the safety of those around you, then I encourage you to look into that.

 

[Wayne Jr]

Not every backyard Rambo is an untrained idiot, but many of them are.

What is a 'backyard Rambo'?

I only know about your level of expertise by what you tell me. If you feel that handgun training is necessary for your safety and the safety of those around you, then I encourage you to look into that.

So now you say it should be up to the individual, not the State?

 

[Helix]

What is a 'backyard Rambo'?


So now you say it should be up to the individual, not the State?

Idiots who use guns as prosthetic penises.

Are you feigning ignorance? I've met many of them.

 

[TurtleDude]

I have no idea about your level of skill. In my own experience with firearms, I have been around a lot of people who desperately needed education and oversight when it came to properly handling guns, though. Any honest gun enthusiast would admit the same. However, that category is in short supply lately.

yeah and I am the opposite, Not only did I take the 12 hour course, I was then asked by the instructor to help him in the early days of Ohio CCW where he was teaching classes every day. So I was teaching part of the classes and did about 300 hours worth. My specialty was the legal aspects and since I had been involved in a shooting in another state, that had CCW before Ohio did, that gave me a perspective few instructors had. On top of that I was an instructor as well as a student at Tactical Defense institute (An Ohio Police Officers Training Academy certified training facility for Ohio Police and Deputies) with several hundred more hours.

But I would note, that the number of CCW holders who have done something wrong (and that doesn't include failure to notify a traffic cop that you hold a ccw) in Ohio is extremely low. I am a huge fan of training. I train every week-and my 21 year old son, who obtained his CCW a few months ago, has at least 200 hours of formal training and I work with him several times a month. The main issue I have with those who want mandatory training is that many of them are like southern whites a couple generations ago, who want "literacy tests" for blacks to vote.

 

[TurtleDude]

Idiots who use guns as prosthetic penises.

Are you feigning ignorance? I've met many of them.

How many of those actually exist? I will not deny there are some. But some of the gun banners pretend it is just about every gun owner.