Colorado Body Slam: Cleared of Wrong Doing

[blackjack50]

Huh? It sure doesn't look like that to me... Based on that video, hard to believe he was returned to duty.

The video is 9 seconds and doesn't show what his body camera does. She assaulted him while he was performing his duties (which involved the fallout from her boyfriend fighting in the club). They won't release his footage yet because now SHE is being prosecuted for her actions :lamo

 

[MaggieD]

The video is 9 seconds and doesn't show what his body camera does. She assaulted him while he was performing his duties (which involved the fallout from her boyfriend fighting in the club). They won't release his footage yet because now SHE is being prosecuted for her actions :lamo

I did read that. And I'll even give them that this 80 pound woman "assaulted him." IMO, though, he used excessive force unless she was armed. There must be something we're NOT understanding though...unless the people who absolved the officer are psychopaths.

 

[blackjack50]

I did read that. And I'll even give them that this 80 pound woman "assaulted him." IMO, though, he used excessive force unless she was armed. There must be something we're NOT understanding though...unless the people who absolved the officer are psychopaths.

Physics. Especially from a throw. She is in platform heels (and she isn't 80 pounds). She was trying to (and this is what I have read) scratch the officer. Scratches are nasty too on the eyes. He controlled her arms and threw her. Now. There is a science in the throw. It all depends on the participants.

If the thrower executes the throw wrong...it can actually end up being harder for the person getting thrown. The landings are rougher. You don't end up in a frame. You land on your neck, your shoulder, ankle, or...your face. The person getting thrown has to commit to the throw, and make sure they keep their chin tucked and get their position to mitigate the risks. They also need to resist correctly if trying to escape. Resisting incorrectly will result in arms of socket, broken bones, bruises, and landing...on the face. I say this having been on the giving and receiving end of all of the types of throws above.

This I can tell you right now...that cop isn't a grappler. I can tell you from his form and general knowledge that most cops aren't. They get minimal training in that area. They get GOOD training, but it all revolves around subject control and getting the cuffs on. It is a lot of power moves and control holds. it is rough. More like football than wrestling. Do you get where I'm headed?

So you get the perfect storm...an imperfect but effective grappler (strength but form lacking) and a STUPIDLY defiant suspect (whose choice of outfit compromised her footing) whose resistance made it even worse. You can cry about her getting what she got, or you can recognize that she was the one who decided to attack someone with better training who was already dealing with an altercation that she was trying to escalate.

Gravity is a bitch. She learned the hard way.

 

[What if...?]

This is ridiculous.

This is ONE case. You can't blame it on the drug war.

You need to go back to the case facts. Cops were there for an altercation. Surat' boyfriend was being cuffed and escorted out (but not charged). She tried to interfere after getting kicked out and making a nuisance of herself. She assaulted the officer in front of witnesses and on body camera.

The 9 seconds you have seen are from someone who didn't start recording till after the incident started (as usual this removed context).

You are telling me I don't want consequences? I would put dirty cops on death row. But I'm also not a bleeding heart ***** who wants to blame the drug war for a drunken Sorostitute college girl doing what they do best: acting like an entitled nut bag whose behavior has no impact on how they deserve to be treated by others.

Guess what happens to someone who attempts to scratch me or bite or strike me? If I'm bigger? I put them down. Hard. I'm not risking them doing anything else TOO anyone else. That was this officer's job. Deal with the threat and arrest her. Good job. Maybe next time she won't take that last skittles shot and start acting a fool in the club?

Those scary girls, right?

Leaving a trail of death and destruction.

 

[What if...?]

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. This is more nonsense about how we need to take guns and Kevlar and cars and arrest powers from cops. You aren't even on the topic anymore.

Modern cop culture is what it is.

Twenty years ago this wouldn't have happened.
She would have been restrained and arrested.

The body slam was just typical gratuitous cop violence.

Don't care that you condone it.

 

[bmr528]

Well,, Women do want to be treated as equal's.. Welcome to equalville...

djl

 

[blackjack50]

Those scary girls, right?

Leaving a trail of death and destruction.

So in your mind she's allowed to physically assault him?

 

[MaggieD]

Physics. Especially from a throw. She is in platform heels (and she isn't 80 pounds). She was trying to (and this is what I have read) scratch the officer. Scratches are nasty too on the eyes. He controlled her arms and threw her. Now. There is a science in the throw. It all depends on the participants.

If the thrower executes the throw wrong...it can actually end up being harder for the person getting thrown. The landings are rougher. You don't end up in a frame. You land on your neck, your shoulder, ankle, or...your face. The person getting thrown has to commit to the throw, and make sure they keep their chin tucked and get their position to mitigate the risks. They also need to resist correctly if trying to escape. Resisting incorrectly will result in arms of socket, broken bones, bruises, and landing...on the face. I say this having been on the giving and receiving end of all of the types of throws above.

This I can tell you right now...that cop isn't a grappler. I can tell you from his form and general knowledge that most cops aren't. They get minimal training in that area. They get GOOD training, but it all revolves around subject control and getting the cuffs on. It is a lot of power moves and control holds. it is rough. More like football than wrestling. Do you get where I'm headed?

So you get the perfect storm...an imperfect but effective grappler (strength but form lacking) and a STUPIDLY defiant suspect (whose choice of outfit compromised her footing) whose resistance made it even worse. You can cry about her getting what she got, or you can recognize that she was the one who decided to attack someone with better training who was already dealing with an altercation that she was trying to escalate.

Gravity is a bitch. She learned the hard way.

I actually don't disagree with you, Blackjack. I find I rarely do.

Great explanation.

 

[Mr Person]

Now I know this will make some of you angry...but it appears the court decision was that the 9 second video was out of context.

Police officer cleared for bodyslamming student 'who pushed him' in Colorado | Metro News


And

Fort Collins officer who body slammed female student exonerated, returned to duty | FOX31 Denver

And what we know now is that video will be realeased after they prosecute the "victim" of the body slam. It seems they are going to prosecute her then release the body cams the officers WERE WEARING.

Now. Cue the usual suspects

Everyone who thinks it was unnecessary is wrong because you called them usual suspects and used an emoticon. How clever.



I'm hard-pressed to imagine what could possibly have come before it to justify what the 9-seconds showed. She was trying to back away from him. He had both her wrists. If I had both her wrists, she wouldn't be able to do anything, not even bite me. [Edit: see below. Looks more like one wrist and one neck/shoulder, depending on time.] Clearly he had some strength and training.

Silly me, thinking that any physical resistance, no matter how pathetically puny, does not necessarily justify getting thrown face first into the ground simply because someone is an Officer.



It's like the cop who flipped that little 6th grader's desk. The usual suspects rushed to defend that on the ground that she was rude to an officer, even though she was a tiny little kid, a third of the male cop's weight at most and a smaller fraction of his strength.

Before you jeer so happily at your "usual suspects", you should probably take a breather to think long and hard about what exact amount of authority you want government agents to have. (That's right. Government agents. That's what they are. Government employees. The people conservatives love to hate..........

....unless they're police officers and "liberals" have a problem with their having beaten someone up).





Don't worry. If it happens to someone you know, you'll switch sides. That's just how people tend to work.

 

[Mr Person]

Seriously? Police are required, in your opinion, to allow persons they are taking into custody to assault them and resist? What are the police supposed to do, in that world you speak of? Just walk away and say that the person hit them, grabbed onto something to anchor themselves, and didn't want to come with the officer willingly, so the police just had to let them go? Please tell us how that's supposed to work, exactly?

Do you really not think there is any middle ground between (1) the police officer running away scared, and (2) the police officer body-slamming a person a fraction of his size?

I think any citizen in American should be appalled by the exponential escalation of force we see these days. It happens to little kids, too. And I happen to think that anyone who thinks "freedom" is worth a damn should absolutely not act like any amount of resistance is license to maul.



No officer, no matter what sex, who is weak enough that they cannot control that pencil-thin woman shouldn't be on the force. Except we know he can control her because he body slams her.

(And I do know about controlling people who are trying to break your bones and/or cause you pain because I wrestled. Against people my own weight.)




I really want to see this supposedly exculpatory body-cam. Because what the video shows is that no matter what happened before, (1) the man is off to the side, with another cop watching him, (2) the cop in question has his right hand around her left wrist, (3) the cop in question has his left arm around or near her neck, with her right hand around his left wrist (pretty reasonable if anyone is choking you, cop or not). Then, in an instant, the cop in question releases his grip on her left wrist, plants his right arm/forearm behind her head, pivots the same way one would pivot for a headlock throw (except his center of gravity is too high).

I don't care how much of a massive ***** she was being. Being a massive ***** should never - in any country that calls itself "free", that is - be an excuse for a government employee to beat the crap out of someone. She was not a physical threat. Period.

I do not want government employees to get away with that.



If someone gets in my face and acts like an ***hole, I am legally required to walk. Just walk, letting them insult me. If I hit them, I go to jail.

If it's someone 1/3 of my size, I'm going to have a very hard time arguing that I reasonably believed that I had no reasonable means of retreat and that body-slamming them was reasonable force to use in response. Especially if the other person is a female who is 1/3 my weight.

But apparently cops are special. They get to hit people when they're mad.

 

[Fenton Lum]

Given the outcry from the anti police crowd? Yea. Especially since the "victim" was white. It actually was yet one more example of a spoiled ass kid thinking their behavior has no consequences. Especially when they decided to get physical.

Reminds me of the time the Rolling Stones hired the Hells Angels for concert security and they killed a guy. Cops, Hells Angels, must be the same training regimen. I'm a "conservative" and I detest big govt, but I always side with my big govt when they're stomping and murdering my fellow citizens or militarily destabilizing the middle east and occupying foreign lands to benefit Wall Street and the "job creator" class.

 

[Mr Person]

If the thrower executes the throw wrong...it can actually end up being harder for the person getting thrown. The landings are rougher. You don't end up in a frame. You land on your neck, your shoulder, ankle, or...your face. The person getting thrown has to commit to the throw, and make sure they keep their chin tucked and get their position to mitigate the risks. They also need to resist correctly if trying to escape. Resisting incorrectly will result in arms of socket, broken bones, bruises, and landing...on the face. I say this having been on the giving and receiving end of all of the types of throws above.

No kidding. I broke a few of my opponent's ribs doing a headlock throw because they planned the fall wrong. A teammate broke his opponent's arm because the moron stuck it out just before hitting the mat. But that was in a sport involving single combat between weight-matched foes.


I'm pretty hard pressed to imagine how a wisp of a woman trying to "scratch" an officer justifies a body-slam onto concrete/stone. Also, it has little to do with positioning or resistance. She doesn't have time or strength to resist. He just puts his right arm behind her head and pivots, WHAM! down she goes.

This I can tell you right now...that cop isn't a grappler. I can tell you from his form and general knowledge that most cops aren't. They get minimal training in that area. They get GOOD training, but it all revolves around subject control and getting the cuffs on. It is a lot of power moves and control holds. it is rough. More like football than wrestling. Do you get where I'm headed?

And from my perspective, that's a problem, not an excuse. They can go from 0 to 100 in no time, and it did not use to be that way.

My wife and I have a running joke: she couldn't kill me unless she shot me in my sleep.....maybe, with a well-aimed stab while asleep. I keep myself in good shape - and every cop should, even though they don't - so if she tried to punch me, it wouldn't matter even if she connected. I could easily gain control with minimal effort, and do it without throwing her face-first into concrete. That's what a big strength advantage does.

And i'm not sure a lack of training is something I'd rely on to excuse this cop....especially when his buddy is right next to him. He'd already had control of her before he body-slammed her. He could just say "hey....pepper spray her" or something, if he really couldn't just control both of her wrists.

Sure, it would hurt like hell. But pepper spray tends not to create the risk of fractured skulls, etc.



And you know, I'm happy to pay cops more. I'm happy to pay for more cop training. I just don't want to see this kind of **** happening. Because what really goes on in so many of these cases (most/all of them), is that a cop got mad. It's not that a rational decision was made about how much force is necessary. Someone was an asshole, and a cop got mad. That's all. But they need to be held to a higher standard.

I sure as hell don't get a pass if i get mad and do something. I get to deal with the law of self-defense. I've got to convince a jury that body-slamming a petite woman was reasonably necessary to defend myself.

What are the odds of that, eh?

 

[What if...?]

So in your mind she's allowed to physically assault him?

In my mind a much larger person can control a drunk girl without slamming her face first into the concrete.

Its not let her blind you or beat the **** out of her.

There are other options.

 

[blackjack50]

In my mind a much larger person can control a drunk girl without slamming her face first into the concrete.

Its not let her blind you or beat the **** out of her.

There are other options.

High risk low reward options. Control the stupid drunk. You can discuss the "well what if" all day long. Fact is...SHE assaulted HIM...while he was in the course of actually doing something productive for the public.

And what I can tell you from first hand experience is this: being much larger is irrelevant in actually subduing someone who is resisting. That person may very well resist a hell of a lot more than you can possibily anticipate. If you have been in a fight or a spar or a grappling match...you should be aware of that fact. And to boot...you can assume you can do something all day long. Doesn't mean that when the game is on...it actually turns out that way.

Do you think it is constitutional to judge someone acting in self defense based on what they COULD have done? Instead of what they DID? And in this case what he DID do was to use a throw to subdue an out of control drunk suspect who had already assaulted him. And the throw he used was rough, but it also worked.

 

[blackjack50]

No kidding. I broke a few of my opponent's ribs doing a headlock throw because they planned the fall wrong. A teammate broke his opponent's arm because the moron stuck it out just before hitting the mat. But that was in a sport involving single combat between weight-matched foes.


I'm pretty hard pressed to imagine how a wisp of a woman trying to "scratch" an officer justifies a body-slam onto concrete/stone. Also, it has little to do with positioning or resistance. She doesn't have time or strength to resist. He just puts his right arm behind her head and pivots, WHAM! down she goes.

So if she doesn't have the strength to resist...why did she? Why did she decide to assault the officer? You want to punish him for defending himself. It is now the OFFICERS fault that SHE initiated a fight with someone bigger, stronger, and better trained? So she shouldn't suffer the consequences? Lmao!

And from my perspective, that's a problem, not an excuse. They can go from 0 to 100 in no time, and it did not use to be that way.

Member? Member how we used to...member! You need to ease up on the member berries because that was a garbage statement (see South Park if you don't get it).

As I also stated...that cop got 6 months of training. You think that is enough to become a black belt judoka/akido/wrestling master? :eye roll: Come on man. You know damn well you don't become an expert fast at any sport. And even an untrained individual can provide significant resistance to others that are trained.

My wife and I have a running joke: she couldn't kill me unless she shot me in my sleep.....maybe, with a well-aimed stab while asleep. I keep myself in good shape - and every cop should, even though they don't - so if she tried to punch me, it wouldn't matter even if she gain control with minimal effort, and do it without throwing her face-first into concrete. That's what a big strength advantage does.

So she is allowed to hit you? Someone else is allowed to hit a cop? Tell me. What exactly is the appropriate response to being physically assaulted. How about this...can you for 100% certain GUARANTEE to me that if some woman assaults you and tries scratching your face...that you can control her WITHOUT risking injuring her in the slightest? I'm betting you wouldn't be willing to stake your career on that bet. How about your life? Or your eyes? Or your health?

Strength is great. It helps. But any attempt to apply strength runs the risk of the video happening.

And i'm not sure a lack of training is something I'd rely on to excuse this cop....especially when his buddy is right next to him. He'd already had control of her before he body-slammed her. He both of her wrists.

Use of force continuum. He can't spray her with a less lethal device. Plus what if she has asthma? People die from OC. And what if the guy had a taser anyone? You want that risk? Her falling and cracking her skull plus the shock? Strength isn't a garauntee of wrist control. Hell...wrist control without sleeves is NOT going to last on a non compliant opponent.

Sure, it would hurt like hell. But pepper spray tends not to create the risk of fractured skulls, etc.

No. But it will also impact everyone around instead of just the drunken idiot who started a physical altercation she couldn't win.

And you know, I'm happy to pay cops more. I'm happy to pay for more cop training. I just don't want to see this kind of **** happening. Because what really goes on in so many of these cases (most/all of them), is that a cop got mad. It's not that a rational decision was made about how much force is necessary. Someone was an asshole, and a cop got mad. That's all. But they need to be held to a higher standard.

I sure as hell don't get a pass if i get mad and do something. I get to deal with the law of self-defense. I've got to convince a jury that body-slamming a petite
What are the odds of that, eh?

Maybe you should learn how to argue your self defense rights then? What you are telling me is that someone has the right to harm you...and what is an appropriate response must be determined after the fact.

Fact is...assaulting someone is NOT ok and there are consequences. YOU shouldn't be responsible for the injury the other person suffers because you did the prudent thing and used your superior training and ability to stop them. He didn't pull his gun and shoot her. He didn't pull his club. He didn't punch her out. He didn't ground and pound her. He didn't choke her to death. SHE attacked him...he threw we down and arrested her. Boo ****ing who. There isn't a court in America that would hold YOU responsible for doing exactly what he did. Stopping the assault.

 

[blackjack50]

I actually don't disagree with you, Blackjack. I find I rarely do.

Great explanation.

Thank you. I have 2 family members who were abused by their female spouse. When someone uses the "bigger and stronger" excuse to defend the violent little person...it annoys me. Nobody has a right to hurt you. And you have every right to use superior force to stop them. Be you a cop or a civilian. In one of the cases the spouse brought charges and won becaude he hit her with a object in reply. Didn't matter that the object was hook for the arm that he was missing (which should have been a clue but wasn't), and she was intoxicated at the time.

 

[blackjack50]

Everyone who thinks it was unnecessary is wrong because you called them usual suspects and used an emoticon. How clever.



I'm hard-pressed to imagine what could possibly have come before it to justify what the 9-seconds showed. She was trying to back away from him. He had both her wrists. If I had both her wrists, she wouldn't be able to do anything, not even bite me. [Edit: see below. Looks more like one wrist and one neck/shoulder, depending on time.] Clearly he had some strength and training.

Silly me, thinking that any physical resistance, no matter how pathetically puny, does not necessarily justify getting thrown face first into the ground simply because someone is an Officer.



It's like the cop who flipped that little 6th grader's desk. The usual suspects rushed to defend that on the ground that she was rude to an officer, even though she was a tiny little kid, a third of the male cop's weight at most and a smaller fraction of his strength.

Before you jeer so happily at your "usual suspects", you should probably take a breather to think long and hard about what exact amount of authority you want government agents to have. (That's right. Government agents. That's what they are. Government employees. The people conservatives love to hate..........

....unless they're police officers and "liberals" have a problem with their having beaten someone up).





Don't worry. If it happens to someone you know, you'll switch sides. That's just how people tend to work.

I won't change my mind. I'm not a liberal. I believe in personal responsibility and thah you don't have a right to assault someone without ramifications. I'm not going to make every excuse in the book to spew my cop hate.

 

[blackjack50]

Reminds me of the time the Rolling Stones hired the Hells Angels for concert security and they killed a guy. Cops, Hells Angels, must be the same training regimen. I'm a "conservative" and I detest big govt, but I always side with my big govt when they're stomping and murdering my fellow citizens or militarily destabilizing the middle east and occupying foreign lands to benefit Wall Street and the "job creator" class.

Reminds me of the time a pot smoking liberal hippie ***** who doesn't understand violence decided that they knew what was an appropriate response to someone physically assaulting someone. "Don't worry she is just expressing herself" right?

 

[What if...?]

High risk low reward options. Control the stupid drunk. You can discuss the "well what if" all day long. Fact is...SHE assaulted HIM...while he was in the course of actually doing something productive for the public.

And what I can tell you from first hand experience is this: being much larger is irrelevant in actually subduing someone who is resisting. That person may very well resist a hell of a lot more than you can possibily anticipate. If you have been in a fight or a spar or a grappling match...you should be aware of that fact. And to boot...you can assume you can do something all day long. Doesn't mean that when the game is on...it actually turns out that way.

Do you think it is constitutional to judge someone acting in self defense based on what they COULD have done? Instead of what they DID? And in this case what he DID do was to use a throw to subdue an out of control drunk suspect who had already assaulted him. And the throw he used was rough, but it also worked.

Don't believe in current cop culture.

Nothing you can say is gonna change that.

Seen too much. Been on the receiving end too much.

Seen too many cops who deserved to be "assaulted" for their behavior.

You can lick all the jackboots you like.

I'm done here.

 

[blackjack50]

Don't believe in current cop culture.

Nothing you can say is gonna change that.

Seen too much. Been on the receiving end too much.

Seen too many cops who deserved to be "assaulted" for their behavior.

You can lick all the jackboots you like.

I'm done here.

Yep. Because those "jackbooted thugs" all deserve to die. They aren't fathers and brothers and mothers and sisters and friends. **** da police! They deserve to die doing a job that is necessary for our society. And any time they actually deal with someone who did wrong...they deserve any attack on them.

Typical. And accusing me of ass kissing too. I love it. I guess you don't have family in the profession?

 

[What if...?]

Yep. Because those "jackbooted thugs" all deserve to die. They aren't fathers and brothers and mothers and sisters and friends. **** da police! They deserve to die doing a job that is necessary for our society. And any time they actually deal with someone who did wrong...they deserve any attack on them.

Typical. And accusing me of ass kissing too. I love it. I guess you don't have family in the profession?

Did I say die?

No I did not.

Didn't read any further.

 

[blackjack50]

Did I say die?

No I did not.

Didn't read any further.

I was exaggerating. Argumentum ad absurdem for effect. The fact is...it doesn't matter what actually happens, you will NOT side with the officer. To you they aren't human and anyone can physically assault them without ramifications. That is what you are demonstrating here. You want reality? Police have to contend with violent dumbasses every single day. Don't want to get hurt? Don't get violent. There is a risk when you decide violence is how you deal with officers.

Can you justify her actions?

 

[blackjack50]

Did I say die?

No I did not.

Didn't read any further.

As a kicker...how would YOU handle getting her in handcuffs?

 

[What if...?]

I was exaggerating. Argumentum ad absurdem for effect. The fact is...it doesn't matter what actually happens, you will NOT side with the officer. To you they aren't human and anyone can physically assault them without ramifications. That is what you are demonstrating here. You want reality? Police have to contend with violent dumbasses every single day. Don't want to get hurt? Don't get violent. There is a risk when you decide violence is how you deal with officers.

Can you justify her actions?

You are wrong.

I actually have the "cop genes". Its an evolutionary archetype. A role that people have been filling for long enough that adaptations occurred.

When a threat arises around those I care about I move toward the "danger".

I am small, have no skills.

So I have to use my words. Never have failed.

Hell. When I was younger it was me who always had to deal with the cops. Lot of success there too.

Cop culture has degraded over my lifetime. The drug war is the primary driver. The practice of hiring ex-military didn't help. I'd bet a lot of cops would fail steroid tests too these days. Too many too yoked up and what looks suspisciously like "'roid rage".

Human beings don't like being bullied. Lots of us experienced too much of that as kids. It domineering behavior is trained now. Gross disrespect is how they behave. Unless you clearly have enough money to make your displeasure felt from the top down.

Its not all, there are still lots of good cops out there.

The bad ones are rarely checked. Departments cover up to avoid losing civil cases.

And nobody needs more than one direct experience to get a permanent attitude towards the police. Especially when they act like too many do. When they act just like the ones who ****ed up you friend, or father, or sister.

For no good reason.

At the end of the day. If every cop was Andy Taylor we wouldn't have this problem. It every thug with a badge was put in check we wouldn't have this problem.

It isn't that way.

And demanding everybody just shut up and take it and hope against evidence that you can get justice after the fact isn't the solution either.

 

[blackjack50]

You are wrong.

I actually have the "cop genes". Its an evolutionary archetype. A role that people have been filling for long enough that adaptations occurred.

When a threat arises around those I care about I move toward the "danger".

I am small, have no skills.

So I have to use my words. Never have failed.

Hell. When I was younger it was me who always had to deal with the cops. Lot of success there too.

Cop culture has degraded over my lifetime. The drug war is the primary driver. The practice of hiring ex-military didn't help. I'd bet a lot of cops would fail steroid tests too these days. Too many too yoked up and what looks suspisciously like "'roid rage".

Human beings don't like being bullied. Lots of us experienced too much of that as kids. It domineering behavior is trained now. Gross disrespect is how they behave. Unless you clearly have enough money to make your displeasure felt from the top down.

Its not all, there are still lots of good cops out there.

The bad ones are rarely checked. Departments cover up to avoid losing civil cases.

And nobody needs more than one direct experience to get a permanent attitude towards the police. Especially when they act like too many do. When they act just like the ones who ****ed up you friend, or father, or sister.

For no good reason.

At the end of the day. If every cop was Andy Taylor we wouldn't have this problem. It every thug with a badge was put in check we wouldn't have this problem.

It isn't that way.

And demanding everybody just shut up and take it and hope against evidence that you can get justice after the fact isn't the solution either.

You realize that words don't work on drunken idiots? That pretty much says it all. At some point...cops have to hands on. It isn't Pretty. This isn't Mayberry. Cops get shot and killed. Do you really need to have it explained why inner city Detroit and drunken bar scenes aren't Mayberry? Cops have changed because the times have.

Member?